Extinction Rebellion and Global Warming

Major protests again in London, are these people doing the right thing out of desperation and concern or is it all hype and the usual suspects out for a march?

I agree with what they are doing but it certainly won't make much difference in the short to medium term.

The only way that we can resolve the problems we face is via very serious government-led intervention by the wealthiest developed countries i.e. funding a new 'Manhattan Project' for energy, legislating to outlaw/reduce single use plastics, funding proper recycling initiatives. Not just pissing around the fringes of recycling like we do at present. Not going to happen in the foreseeable future, unfortunately.

Only problem is that the current protests are led by well-meaning Greens who have bought into a semi-luddite narrative and think sackcloth and ashes is the only way forward, with everyone reverting to some sort of pastoral idyll which has never existed. With the population of the planet heading rapidly towards 10 billion, the only thing which will save us from catastrophe is technology.

Windfarms are all well and good, but the only thing which can decarbonise our energy production anywhere near fast enough is nuclear power (which is also the safest method of energy generation). Unfortunately, the oil companies have been backing the gas/wind combo for so long, it is seen as the way forward by the Greens. Without long term energy storage technology which doesn't yet exist, this won't be enough.

What do you think of the scope for really effective battery technology Maringer? Where does it stand versus where will it be in 5/10 years time?

On the sackcloth and ashes thing, there are those with wealth who do fear their wings are going to be clipped (almost literally), and are sponsors of the 'project fear' claims to persuade enough of the less wealthy to act as a democratic break on effective action. In a way they are right - we are going to need to make sacrifices and the only way to persuade people to do that is to make sure we are ALL in it together. The richest have to give up more in percentage terms. Environmentalism involves a larger degree of socialism than we've been used to in the last 40 years.

When you get Putin saying that global warming will be good for Russia because they will be able to take a overcoat off,

With Trump saying its fake news,

Plus China concreting miles and miles of former countryside .

Things wont change much whatever we do.

Lots of different, cheaper battery technologies are under development. Magnesium-ion, Sodium-ion, Aluminium-ion and there shouldn't be any (or much) requirement for expensive elements such as Cobalt and Manganese used in many Lithium-ion batteries. The Mg, Na and Al are also a lot cheaper than Li as well, of course. These new batteries aren't likely to supplant Li-ion in transportation/laptops etc (at least not immediately), but will certainly be able to provide storage for home power banks and perhaps even larger-scale storage in the longer term. Liquid flow batteries already exist which can be used as short-term backup for renewable generation but to attempt to add long-term storage would still be too expensive. Only problem is, we still don't have energy storage tech any where near as cheap as hydro and that is obviously completely reliant on geology. Geology we don't really have in the UK. In my opinion, solar is pretty much a waste of time in our climate - we should be using the land for other things. Solar on rooftops is OK as long as you are willing to live with the injuries/fatalities which come from having people clambering around at the top of ladders. It also takes years for solar panels in temperate climates to recoup the energy used to produce them (solar panel factories in the far east tend to burn oil to generate their power). The cost of feeding in small amounts of power into the grid isn't really taken into account so the ideal situation would be for these rooftop cells to feed into a powerwall for the homeowners own usage or to charge their electric cars overnight. Of course, these are too expensive due to the use of Li-ion batteries at present.

The Li-ion batteries are likely to improve at least twofold in capacity over the next couple of years so electric cars should be able to become either cheaper or cost the same but with longer range. Also, cheaper production methods for Li-ion are under development with different anodes/cathodes/electrolytes being solid state instead of liquid so cooling is less of an issue. Ultimately, we're getting to the stage where electric transportation will become much more feasible and cheaper, but not perhaps quickly enough.

Capacity factor of Nuclear power stations remains impressive, even for older designs, despite the high initial cost and Nuclear waste really isn't the issue it has been represented as over the past 40-odd years. Low-grade stuff is pretty much harmless and geological storage is easy (stick it in salt mines). High-level waste from Pressurised Water Reactors (i.e. pretty much all of them in use these days), should actually be considered a valuable resource as it can be reprocessed to produce fuel for other reactor designs which can then burn away the worst of the actinides. Other reactor designs such as Molten Salt Reactors are feasible (prototypes were developed back in the 1960s) which should theoretically be built more cheaply and would cost less to run as the fuel wouldn't need to be processed. The problem is that a lot of the money made by the Nuclear industry comes from manufacturing fuel rods/pellets, enriching Uranium for use in reactors etc. They don't want to move to different designs which they would have to pay lots out to develop if they then don't have a revenue stream at the end of it. Instead, we're left with modern, hugely expensive and over-engineered versions of the old and inefficient PWR designs (notably the EPR) which will lead to the government paying EDF and the Chinese vast amounts of money over the next 50-odd years to operate through an inflated strike price per MWh. If the government financed it themselves it would cost the country a vast amount less, as would other designs such as the APR which the Koreans and Chinese are producing. The Russians have their own VVER reactors which are also a heck of a lot cheaper to build and operate - not that we would take the risk, especially with the current East vs West rhetoric.

Ultimately, it is a tragedy that the pioneers of Nuclear power (the UK) no longer have the capability to design or operate our own reactors. A complete failure of government policy since the 1970s which leaves us entirely dependent on others and paying for it. With current technology, renewables are reliant on gas backup and nothing in the immediate future makes me think any different. Burning gas is better than coal, but it isn't going to decarbonise things anywhere as fast as we need.

The western powers need to lead the way and then provide the technology to developing countries (possibly even below cost) to ensure they don't go the coal/gas route for their own power generation. It doesn't help us if we clean up our act if the more populous developing countries are still pumping out the pollution. China and India are going for Nuclear in a big way but their energy requirements are so high (as they are doing most of our manufacturing) that China is producing loads of dirty coal power stations as well. This needs to stop as soon as possible.

As you may have guessed, I have somehow developed a bit of an interest following power generation/nuclear reactors/battery technology etc etc. God only knows why.

As much as I feel like more can be done as far as initiatives to save the environment I never agree with extremists of any sort. It always feels like a bunch of middle class weirdos love to get together to ruin everybody's day while telling everyone what to do. These kind of groups push for action, but they want everyone else to pay for it and not them. I also don't think extremist actions and protests make people listen as it only annoys others and makes you look worse.

We need to figure out recycling because at the minute we don't recycle much at all and instead dump most of our recyclables on other countries. Just dumping problems somewhere else is not sustainable in the long run. Many countries in Asia can no longer cope with the responsibility of so much recyclable waste. I don't think wind farms and solar power are that viable yet, we don't even know how to properly dispose of solar panels yet in a quick and effective way so they are piling up as they are so ridiculously toxic that any mistakes can intercourse up soil and drinking water.

Though still the biggest thing we can do is probably phase out certain meats like beef because cows and the mass production to serve our appetite for their meat is a walking environmental disaster. Right now the middle class are creating a giant carbon footprint to send some midget teenager to grimace and scowl all over the world telling us how we ruined her privileged life of having rich parents with millionaire friends so I think that tells you enough about the kind of people who get involved in these things.  

Quoted from Kris2

As much as I feel like more can be done as far as initiatives to save the environment I never agree with extremists of any sort. It always feels like a bunch of middle class weirdos love to get together to ruin everybody's day while telling everyone what to do. These kind of groups push for action, but they want everyone else to pay for it and not them. I also don't think extremist actions and protests make people listen as it only annoys others and makes you look worse.

We need to figure out recycling because at the minute we don't recycle much at all and instead dump most of our recyclables on other countries. Just dumping problems somewhere else is not sustainable in the long run. Many countries in Asia can no longer cope with the responsibility of so much recyclable waste. I don't think wind farms and solar power are that viable yet, we don't even know how to properly dispose of solar panels yet in a quick and effective way so they are piling up as they are so ridiculously toxic that any mistakes can intercourse up soil and drinking water.

Though still the biggest thing we can do is probably phase out certain meats like beef because cows and the mass production to serve our appetite for their meat is a walking environmental disaster. Right now the middle class are creating a giant carbon footprint to send some midget teenager to grimace and scowl all over the world telling us how we ruined her privileged life of having rich parents with millionaire friends so I think that tells you enough about the kind of people who get involved in these things.  

The middle class is out in force because they have the most to lose, pretending climate change is not happening is against all scientific research, it’s easy to believe the government wants the best for us, but corruption is rife

Cheers Maringer. Good to get some balanced information. You could be bullshitting of course 😉

The obsession with the private sector funding and building infrastructure is crazy. And it’s led to us paying a branch of the French state for it. Same with German and Dutch rail companies.

Kris I think you’re getting sidetracked by ‘workerist’ thinking. It’s just another ploy by the vested interests to weaken the pressure for change. And that ‘scowling teenager’ at least took the time to sail to New York. OK she’s wealthy enough to have the time / ability to step off the education treadmill that most kids can’t afford to do, but it doesn’t weaken the argument. I could be an absolute c.unt but if I tell you 1 and 1 is 2, I’m still telling you the truth.

I wonder if the 6 that so far voted to agree to support what they are doing, drive a car, have gas central heating or go on holidays by plane.

Quoted from arryarryarry

I wonder if the 6 that so far voted to agree to support what they are doing, drive a car, have gas central heating or go on holidays by plane.

Here in lies the rub of the whole matter, most people accept that global warming is real, it is a fact that the last few years have been the warmest since records began,  although many do not believe the extent of the threat that XR are suggesting.

Most on here will live by the coast or have family who do, all the charts predict that our area and the low lying coast to the South will be affected quite badly. Certainly Blundell Park is very vulnerable. Even so it is very hard to give up things without immediate incentive, (you only have to look at the number of smokers who thought cancer is what someone else got who wished they could turn back time). It is so easy to say look at the Chinese or lndians or Yanks, me doing anything will make next to no difference. Nearly all of us are hypocrites, oil and plastic make life easier, when I was young milk came to your door via an electric vehicle and every bottle was taken away and reused,
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