4-4-2

I know we are heading into the season with a 4-3-3 formation and our wide options arent amazing but just wondering what people think of a potential 4-4-2

GK: Macca
DF: Ring, Pollock/Davis, Ohman, Hendrie/Hewitt
MF: Wright, Clifton, Hess, Hendrie/Hewitt
FW: Hanson, Green

as a plan b to the 4-3-3

If we were doing 442 as the back up option I'd want to see us bring in a proper winger first

Players win games not systems.

Quoted from rancido

Players win games not systems.

That's just simply not true.

Quoted from mariner91

That's just simply not true.

It is true...Mike Newell said it onc.....oh...errrrm  

I seem to recall either Bill Shankley or Brian Clough said it but hey ho what would they know.

With no Whitehouse  or Ogbu I don't think much of your team Oly but fortunately you are not picking the team!!

Can’t really see how we can play 4-4-2 when we (still) haven’t got any wide midfielders/wingers apart from Wright who’s very young and who doesn’t seem a likely starter. We haven’t got the strength in depth we need, or the cover yet to be tactically flexible - something which surprises and disappoints me given Jolley’s profile/pedigree, but, benefit of the doubt.....there’s time for us to bring in more players. 3 we need in my book.

Quoted from chaos33

Can’t really see how we can play 4-4-2 when we (still) haven’t got any wide midfielders/wingers apart from Wright who’s very young and who doesn’t seem a likely starter. We haven’t got the strength in depth we need, or the cover yet to be tactically flexible - something which surprises and disappoints me given Jolley’s profile/pedigree, but, benefit of the doubt.....there’s time for us to bring in more players. 3 we need in my book.

Completely agree. It seems Jolley doesn’t like playing with out and out wingers, or he certainly hasn’t set us up like that recently.

I’d like to see Wright given a go in some games. He has great promise - is quick, skilful and can cross and shoot. I also think we need to score more goals and Hanson and Green quite obviously thrive on crosses, so, if we are not playing 4-4-2 we need to ensure that whatever system we do play makes the most of this asset by good set piece delivery and central midfielders and wing backs getting into wide areas and getting the ball into the box.

Jolley knows his stats and he knows that the vast majority of goals are scored from crosses and set pieces. However we play, we’ve got to set up with this in mind.

4-3-3 works well for us. It probably kept us up. I’m all for it.

I like 4-3-3 and 4-3-1-2 if played well but you kind of make the salient point. ‘We stayed up playing 4-3-3’ you say, but, for me, that’s the problem. Since we returned to the league we’ve been all about ‘staying up’. At the same time our goals scored totals have been rubbish. We can’t go on doing that. We have to have more ambition and strive to be a top half team at least. Therefore, for me, we need better players, and more flexible/effective tactics. Saying 4-3-3 has kept us up so let’s go on with that is flawed.

i just hope that for what would seem like the first time in years we actually start a season with the system we have been preparing for in signings and pre season formations instead of scrapping it either just before we kick off or after a game or two.

The problem with 4-4-2 is that very few other teams play it!

So if we were to adopt it, we would more than likely get out-numbered in central midfield, in most games.

Jolley to me looks set on 4-3-3. From what I've seen so far a lot of work has gone into the system so cant see it changing too much now.

Worked pretty well yesterday against a decent side, expect us to be fairly direct though

Quoted from jimgtfc

Completely agree. It seems Jolley doesn’t like playing with out and out wingers, or he certainly hasn’t set us up like that recently.

One of the reasons managers nowadays do not favour 4-4-2 is that it has just 2 in centre midfield. When we have set up that way we have not had good enough players to win the midfield and that puts pressure on the centre backs. Collins was very often getting skinned by somebody running through the middle so MJ fixed that by playing the diamond 4 in the middle that can easily be switched to a 4-3-3.  These days some variation of that is what you see in almost every side.

We will have to wait and see how it sets up but I would like to see either Rose or Wright used as the pacy player who switches around and gets down the wings and cuts inside as well as getting some crosses in.

Quoted from rancido

I seem to recall either Bill Shankley or Brian Clough said it but hey ho what would they know.

Regardless of who said it, it doesn't make it right. The year we were promoted from the National League, are you telling me that Danny Cowley had better players at his disposal than Paul Hurst did? Not even close, he just set them up better. And before you say but Hurst beat them in the play offs, he may have done but he also finished below them in the league and only won one of the four games against them.

I like the idea of that too RRFC.  Obviously, all games are different - you probably won’t play the same way away at Bradford as you would at home to Port Vale, for example, but I think we need to be able to seize the initiative and take the game to teams, make best use of our assets and switch our system or our players. I think, at present, we are better equipped to do this than last year, but I still think we are lacking a player or two that will give us the potential to get at the top 10.

Quoted from mariner91

Regardless of who said it, it doesn't make it right. The year we were promoted from the National League, are you telling me that Danny Cowley had better players at his disposal than Paul Hurst did? Not even close, he just set them up better. And before you say but Hurst beat them in the play offs, he may have done but he also finished below them in the league and only won one of the four games against them.

Whether Shankly or Clough said it, they didn’t mean it. They both set up their sides in a certain way so all players knew exactly what their job was. For instance, Forest in the 80s was a solid defensive minded unit that had the simple instruction of “keep it on the floor and give it to Robertson’s feet.”

Quoted from Rasen 17

With no Whitehouse  or Ogbu I don't think much of your team Oly but fortunately you are not picking the team!!

Well you could swap out Hess or Clifton for Whitehouse. Not much place for Ogbu but like I said this is a plan b to bring in some width

The 4-3-3 worked better on Saturday than it has previously this summer because we had Rose in that front 3 who could stretch teams.   It was that simple.  He had their full-back on toast a few times, meaning others had to come across and cover.  

Ogbu in that role behind the front two hasn't had anywhere near that level of impact so the front two are relatively easily occupied.

In an ideal world we would have both width and someone pushing on from the midfield.  Unless Jolley is brave enough to play wingers and an attacking midfielder/withdrawn striker, I can't see us having both.  

The biggest thing for me is to have more than one way of playing just to give the opposition something to think about. If you play the same way every week it makes the opposition's job a lot easier. Likewise making similar substitutions and switching things around the same time. Mix it up. Get the opposition bench trying to figure out what you are doing.

Yes, players win games and not systems but we don't have the best squad of players by any stretch of the imagination so we need to get every edge we can.

Quoted from diehardmariner

The 4-3-3 worked better on Saturday than it has previously this summer because we had Rose in that front 3 who could stretch teams.   It was that simple.  He had their full-back on toast a few times, meaning others had to come across and cover.  

Ogbu in that role behind the front two hasn't had anywhere near that level of impact so the front two are relatively easily occupied.

In an ideal world we would have both width and someone pushing on from the midfield.  Unless Jolley is brave enough to play wingers and an attacking midfielder/withdrawn striker, I can't see us having both.  

Could not agree more. I was at Boston and the Peterborough game. Ogbu wasn't sharp at all. Rose was superb, as was Wright. If we deploy Ogbu out wide he might be more effective

Quoted from rancido

Players win games not systems.

I mean this in the nicest way possible without trying to be rude but you've clearly not coached before have you?

Yes you need the players but the system etcc is just as important.

I can give an amateur example of it with my team we started 433 lost 1 drew 1 won 13 in 15, I changed it half way through the season (stupidly) to 352 (same players)  we lost 4 and drew 3 winning just 8 of the remaining 15 games.
New season, a few fresh faces and 352 so far has been working very well and I'm excited for the season ahead.

Quoted from GrimRob

The biggest thing for me is to have more than one way of playing just to give the opposition something to think about. If you play the same way every week it makes the opposition's job a lot easier. Likewise making similar substitutions and switching things around the same time. Mix it up. Get the opposition bench trying to figure out what you are doing.

Yes, players win games and not systems but we don't have the best squad of players by any stretch of the imagination so we need to get every edge we can.

Problem is without better players, changing systems mid-game, or even from game to game, is even harder.

Quoted from chaos33

Can’t really see how we can play 4-4-2 when we (still) haven’t got any wide midfielders/wingers apart from Wright who’s very young and who doesn’t seem a likely starter. We haven’t got the strength in depth we need, or the cover yet to be tactically flexible - something which surprises and disappoints me given Jolley’s profile/pedigree, but, benefit of the doubt.....there’s time for us to bring in more players. 3 we need in my book.

Wright is 21. It's not that young to be a professional footballer. I think someone even pointed out he's older than Clifton.

As Wright is a proper winger in that he hugs the touchline and goes down the flank, we could probably afford a more inverted type winger on the other flank.  That could allow someone like Vernam to play in that role I guess.  As another option Rose could operate on one of the wings, would require a dominant full-back behind him though.

Neither are really ideal I guess.  Vernam showed at times last season he has a very good delivery from wide so with Hanson in the middle he wouldn't be the worst person to have in a wide role.   If we're going to shoehorn anyone into playing out wide, I think he's probably our best option.  Of course, as Nutsy says, Ogbu could be more effective out there.  

Good point actually KM, I had in my mind he was 19/20 so yeah, even more of a case for him playing. I’d like to see him start certain games or to be used more than he has from the bench as I think his asserts, particularly late in games against tiring or booked defenders will cause problems.

Quoted from chaos33

Can’t really see how we can play 4-4-2 when we (still) haven’t got any wide midfielders/wingers apart from Wright who’s very young and who doesn’t seem a likely starter. We haven’t got the strength in depth we need, or the cover yet to be tactically flexible - something which surprises and disappoints me given Jolley’s profile/pedigree, but, benefit of the doubt.....there’s time for us to bring in more players. 3 we need in my book.

That’s a pretty fair assessment in my book. My worry is that all the talk seems to be of ‘trying’ (and not necessarily succeeding) to bring in two more players, one of which will be a centre half. That’s obviously needed but it’s not achieving much in the way of tactical flexibility.

The pattern of last season was that we struggled to find a team and system that worked in the early stages, eventually found our feet in the run up to Christmas but after a brief period of success got found out and struggled through the lack of any plan b.

I hope and expect us to start better this season, but I can easily see a situation where we get worked out by sides and begin to struggle once again.

If we were in the market for a new winger I see Ben Pringle is still without a club?

Could be a decent option. Certainly he can take a good set piece and our form with him in the side was pretty decent.

I know some people would say he left us, but I think it was more Jolley wanting to play 3-5-2 and Pringle was never going to fit in that system.

Pringles never really impressed me. There is certainly a player there, but for us we need quick wingers to fit with the rest of the squad. Thought Pringle would do a better job in central midfield

Quoted from Nutsy

Pringles never really impressed me. There is certainly a player there, but for us we need quick wingers to fit with the rest of the squad. Thought Pringle would do a better job in central midfield

I know what you mean. He fitted the term drifited in and out of games for sure. But he was on good form at Tranmere and was pretty influential in their promotion.

Would never have him in centre mid myself though, far too weak.

Maybe behind a front two but not in the engine room?

Pringle is a wide midfielder rather than a winger if u know what I mean. Doesn't beat a man, his crosses are from a static position usually. Good crosser of the ball tho. Not impossible he would feed Hanson well, but not sure how I would feel about him coming back as he was part of what was a very feeble attack for us last season creatively. Just maybe that was due to not having players that thrived on his type of play?

His left foot is a wand - we probably just didn’t have the forwards to take advantage so he would probably be more effective this season especially with Hanson in there.
Downsides were when he played on the right he was very predictable as he always had to cut inside to get it on his left, and defensively was quite weak. I’m sure we dropped a few points due to his defensive lapses including his first game away at Stevenage.
So on balance I’m hoping for better this season.

Quoted from chaos33

Good point actually KM, I had in my mind he was 19/20 so yeah, even more of a case for him playing. I’d like to see him start certain games or to be used more than he has from the bench as I think his asserts, particularly late in games against tiring or booked defenders will cause problems.

I remember this because he's about the same age as my son*. Same school year. So it makes it easy to remember.

* About time he started to deliver too the lazy student sodomist