Nations League in Portugal

Quoted from Les Brechin

Admittedly Kane and Alli were off the pace last night when they came on, but don't you think the England side would have been stronger if Henderson, Alexander-Arnold, Rose and maybe even Gomez would have started.

Not sure mate personally as others have stated I thought mistakes apart the midfield were dominated throughout got a bit better when Henderson and Lingard came on and seemed to add energy? Barkley to me is a player I would have further forward feeding in the strikers he isn`t a typical up and down midfielder Rice I do like and Delph simply not good enough . The Dutch are an improving side that were awful 2 years ago England are the same old same old as in better than most but not quite good enough when it matters . We don`t have that winning mentality and you contrast Southgate (who I and I guess most people like?) vs Koeman who has a player cynically risked a red card to stop a goal got away with it and knocked us out he will do whatever it takes to get a win . The players you mentioned would they really have wanted when selected to sit on the bench or play from the start 2 games and go off on holiday for a rest before the next season starts? All players these days are now athletes and they must get the least amount of rest compared to sportspeople from other disciplines?

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

I admire your optimism!

If teams only really learn from their mistakes then England are incredibly slow learners and will be a very, very long time studying.

In fairness to the players, some are lacking in regular top class club football but the biggest culprits for poor decisions and anonymity last night were the most experienced!

Brazil and other top sides do launch it from the back if they need to. The difference is that their accuracy is better and the target player better at receiving the ball. The issue of someone being available for the pass is another fallacy. Look at the top sides and the ball is most often played into midfield to a marked man who is expected to either pass first time, beat his marker or draw the foul.  Nevertheless are we saying that in a semi final where we we need to win we would like to see a defender always try to play a short ball, even if it puts his mate into trouble, rather than send it down the other end? No thanks. Row W may be ugly but if we win I’ll take it.

Two years ago I would agree with you that we're never going to learn from our mistakes because we just repeated the same old approach every two years, huffing and puffing hoping that something would come from nothing.  Even in the supposed Golden Generation we were hoping for a set-piece magic from Beckham or something inspired from the likes of Rooney, Gerrard or Lampard.  This England side hasn't been together long enough to learn from their mistakes, that said Southgate has (in my opinion) shown he can learn from mistakes or shortcomings.  He was quick to change from the back 3 that served us well at the World Cup because he recognised it's limitations.  Last night we were faced with a situation where the 4-3-3 variation that has served us well was limited, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes more changes as a result.

I think our view of 'launching it' may be different.  I mean just a big hoof up to the front and hope that the big man gets on the end of it.  Which is what we did for so many years under god knows how many managers.  When sides like Brazil go longer, as you said, it's more accurate and measured.  That's a result of better technical players making the passes and also the receiver making himself available and easier to find.  Last night, as a side we didn't help our defenders with easy passes at all.  But individually I don't really see any of that midfield 3 starting games at Euro 2020, most certainly not all 3 together.  Equally so I think we'll probably have better technical players at the back involved too.  

The more traditional route one approach hasn't worked for god knows how many years.  If it would work I would happily see it used if it meant we win, but it hasn't and it won't.  Whilst our transformation under Southgate has been rapid, it wasn't an instant thing.  It was carefully planned and developed.  We didn't become a decent side overnight, just like we haven't become a bad one overnight.  

England have used longer passes at times - look at the goals they scored in the 3-2 win in Spain. You do wonder if Stones can be trusted unfortunately and I think Gomez and Trent AA must be close to the first XI when fully fit and rested. Stick to the current philiosophy though there needs to be some pragmatism at times. It's still served us better than anything else we've tried in the last 20 years + though.

I think our midfield is the biggest issue. Need to be technically better and dictate the tempo more. Most concerning thing for me last night was the echoes of the Croatia WC semi and the way we allowed them to completely seize the initiative. Agree with whoever said we need to be looking to introduce the likes of Winks and Foden though I do like Henderson more than most seem to. Was really disappointed last night but still more excited about watching England than I have been in a long time.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

England have used longer passes at times - look at the goals they scored in the 3-2 win in Spain. You do wonder if Stones can be trusted unfortunately and I think Gomez and Trent AA must be close to the first XI when fully fit and rested. Stick to the current philiosophy though there needs to be some pragmatism at times. It's still served us better than anything else we've tried in the last 20 years + though.

I think our midfield is the biggest issue. Need to be technically better and dictate the tempo more. Most concerning thing for me last night was the echoes of the Croatia WC semi and the way we allowed them to completely seize the initiative. Agree with whoever said we need to be looking to introduce the likes of Winks and Foden though I do like Henderson more than most seem to. Was really disappointed last night but still more excited about watching England than I have been in a long time.

I certainly was when Lingard put that one away...must have been millimetres in that VAR decision  

Quoted from diehardmariner

The more traditional route one approach hasn't worked for god knows how many years.  If it would work I would happily see it used if it meant we win, but it hasn't and it won't.  Whilst our transformation under Southgate has been rapid, it wasn't an instant thing.  It was carefully planned and developed.  We didn't become a decent side overnight, just like we haven't become a bad one overnight.  

I understand the point but I am an impatient bu99er.

I just think that if Holland can go from not qualifying for the WC where we reach the semis, supposedly with a side in development, to a side that beats us in a semi the following year with a totally new team and manager, then why can’t we do that? People keep telling me how talented these kids are, how much they won at under 11 or whatever and how they are developing. But when the crunch comes, they just ain’t doing it. They fall at the fence as soon as the going gets tough. As soon as they are asked to do the ugly stuff and WIN, they fail and worse, they fail badly. It is like watching a balloon deflate. The manager looked totally clueless even before the equaliser. Yes, we can rightly argue the past was not a success but neither is the present and personally I cannot see this side and manager ever actually putting silverware on our shelves.

Not having Sky myself, I watched the match at my sons house.

The main thing I would take from the game is Martin Tyler having a chat to his mate Gary Neville for 90 odd minutes, and for Neville himself to drone on and on stating the absolute obvious.

VAR will kill the game; One minute jumping up that England had scored a winner, only to have it ruled out for a toe that was offside. Soon we will not be celebrating a goal as we would normally do,we will sit there passively as we will all be awaiitg the VAR verdict. Utterly stupid.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

I understand the point but I am an impatient bu99er.

I just think that if Holland can go from not qualifying for the WC where we reach the semis, supposedly with a side in development, to a side that beats us in a semi the following year with a totally new team and manager, then why can’t we do that? People keep telling me how talented these kids are, how much they won at under 11 or whatever and how they are developing. But when the crunch comes, they just ain’t doing it. They fall at the fence as soon as the going gets tough. As soon as they are asked to do the ugly stuff and WIN, they fail and worse, they fail badly. It is like watching a balloon deflate. The manager looked totally clueless even before the equaliser. Yes, we can rightly argue the past was not a success but neither is the present and personally I cannot see this side and manager ever actually putting silverware on our shelves.

Ah.  Now that's about the game time their lads are getting then isn't it?  The likes De Ligt and De Jong are mainstays in the Ajax side, or were anyway.  The Premier League doesn't afford such luxuries, the likes of Sancho have set the standard in terms of what players must do if they're not getting first team football.  It's getting better and you only need to look at the English players now getting game time in the top six sides, especially compared with what it was 6-7 years ago.  But our midfield was made up of reserves and a lad from West Ham.  

It was also a weakened England team against what looked to be a full strength Dutch side.  You can argue the merits of resting players when they didn't but I think we would have benefited from Henderson and Alexander-Arnold both starting.  Kane when fit would have made a difference too.  Add to the mix Alli and you've got a third of your side.  

Have faith this side will develop, I'm confident that as the young lads get more game time they'll be a far better side than that Holland one.

Hard to judge how relevant the performance and result were last night.  The team was disrupted and not at its best for a number of reasons.

The midfield did not work as a unit and often did not welcome the ball being passed out to them.  This put greater pressure on the defence and reduced the time and options that they had to play the ball out.  

Stones suffered from these circumstances and made critical errors.  He is too much of a liability as he has done this before.  Maybe why he is not currently in the City first team.

A very good comment was made on the radio last night.  For variety, or if the opposition keep pressurising the defence, get the forwards to press-up to the edge of the penalty area.  The keeper can then kick it long trying to pick them out.  Gives you opponents a different threat to consider.


Man City are good at doing this, with Ederson very effective and accurate.

A wake up call might be no bad thing in the long-run.

Just saw it as a missed opportunity last night for us to win this tournament as I can only see the Nations League becoming bigger and more competitive in the future.

Semi-finals without Italy, Germany and Spain, chance missed for me.

I like both Stones and Barkley but I sometime wonder with them being at Man City and Chelsea if they perhaps can get a bit nonchalant, if they make a mistake at club level then 9 times out of 10 it's not seriousdie to the reams they play for. It was noticeable that Gaudirola ( the city manager) did not have Stones as his starter towards the end of the season.