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MuddyWaters
November 20, 2018, 4:31pm
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Fair play to Andy Holt (Accy Chairman) - making public their income figures from Barnsley home game

https://twitter.com/AndyhHolt/status/1064859174155313152
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Rob_in_Grimsby
November 20, 2018, 5:03pm
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It would have been even better if they had published the figures for the costs of putting a home game on including staff and player wages, weekly overheads for owning and running the ground and costs  etc
It would then give fans an idea of the true cost of running a club.

Interesting to see they make allot more on booze then they do food, who would have though it

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Cloudy
November 20, 2018, 5:57pm
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Quoted from Rob_in_Grimsby
It would have been even better if they had published the figures for the costs of putting a home game on including staff and player wages, weekly overheads for owning and running the ground and costs  etc
It would then give fans an idea of the true cost of running a club.

Interesting to see they make allot more on booze then they do food, who would have though it



Perhaps you could have a chat with your passengers on Saturday so we can have similar open dialogue?
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pen penfras
November 20, 2018, 6:05pm

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Quoted from Cloudy


Perhaps you could have a chat with your passengers on Saturday so we can have similar open dialogue?


You can take rough numbers from that to extrapolate what we make per match.

Accy have about 1100 season tickets from what I can find in articles. So that means ticket income for 3700 extra people at about £12.30 each. Then the rest of the income averages about £3.40 each. This is before all the costs are taken out, so profit is much lower, particularly for the food, beer, programmes etc.

We have 3000 season ticket sales and average about 4300? (my guess). So using Accy's numbers:
1300 tickets sold per game = £16k per game = £365k per season.
4300 people spending £3.40 per game = £14.5k per game = £335k per season.

Not sure how we compare, perhaps referencing the accounts might give some idea. Their ticket prices are higher than ours, so I imagine we're actually lower than that.
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Cloudy
November 20, 2018, 6:32pm
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Quoted from pen penfras


You can take rough numbers from that to extrapolate what we make per match.

Accy have about 1100 season tickets from what I can find in articles. So that means ticket income for 3700 extra people at about £12.30 each. Then the rest of the income averages about £3.40 each. This is before all the costs are taken out, so profit is much lower, particularly for the food, beer, programmes etc.

We have 3000 season ticket sales and average about 4300? (my guess). So using Accy's numbers:
1300 tickets sold per game = £16k per game = £365k per season.
4300 people spending £3.40 per game = £14.5k per game = £335k per season.

Not sure how we compare, perhaps referencing the accounts might give some idea. Their ticket prices are higher than ours, so I imagine we're actually lower than that.


Rather than having a guess I would love to see our ‘leader’ actually engage with the fans, explain the pluses and minuses and give some explanation behind the decisions made.
Nah, that could be construed as engagement and he doesn’t do that
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pen penfras
November 20, 2018, 6:43pm

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Quoted from Cloudy


Rather than having a guess I would love to see our ‘leader’ actually engage with the fans, explain the pluses and minuses and give some explanation behind the decisions made.
Nah, that could be construed as engagement and he doesn’t do that


Well we just released our financial results for the season. Why should we do it on a game by game basis? No other club does and a token gesture of half the information from Accrington Stanley is not a stick worth beating the club with.
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grimsby pete
November 20, 2018, 6:57pm

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Quoted from Rob_in_Grimsby
It would have been even better if they had published the figures for the costs of putting a home game on including staff and player wages, weekly overheads for owning and running the ground and costs  etc
It would then give fans an idea of the true cost of running a club.

Interesting to see they make allot more on booze then they do food, who would have though it



I read somewhere last season when they were in L2 their playing budget was £18,000 per week,

I wonder how that compares to ours,

I don't know how many players they had to pay out of that sum,

but

£18,000 for the whole squad yet up the road in Manchester there is one player on £ 450,000 per week.

Different worlds does not come close.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                             68 Years following the Town

                              Life member of Trust

                               First game   April 1955
                               
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MuddyWaters
November 20, 2018, 7:04pm
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Quoted from pen penfras


Well we just released our financial results for the season. Why should we do it on a game by game basis? No other club does and a token gesture of half the information from Accrington Stanley is not a stick worth beating the club with.


Who said anything about beating the club with a stick? I posted it as an example of a similar size club engaging itself with the customers that it serves - but now you mention it, and you seem to have such an inside track, you might want to mention it to the board and show them how useful it is to engage with the people who pay the bills.
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Cloudy
November 20, 2018, 7:09pm
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Quoted from pen penfras


Well we just released our financial results for the season. Why should we do it on a game by game basis? No other club does and a token gesture of half the information from Accrington Stanley is not a stick worth beating the club with.


The annual accounts are released but are a snap shot as at one day each year.

I don’t expect a breakdown on a game by game basis, that would be stupid and I don’t know why you brought it up, however a summary of where OUR money is spent would be useful and informative.

What is spent on ground maintenance for example, what is the clubs average income per head, per game? Are the club making money on food and drink? If so how much?
What are the match day costs of stewarding? What is the clubs take on ifollow, the tv deal, the management of the EFL.

Most of us appreciate that some things are sensitive and not for public consumption but at least trying to inform and educate would actually make some of us feel part of the club rather than a pain in the bottom!

What could the fans do to help the club progress ( other than blindly turning up and being treated as something stuck on the shoe of the directors?)
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forza ivano
November 20, 2018, 7:13pm

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Didn't the lad on twitter who guessed we had the 3rd lowest playing budget and is a bit of a sleuth/expert on club financesactually praise the club for the open ness of our accounts as opposed to most other clubs?
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Cloudy
November 20, 2018, 7:25pm
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Quoted from forza ivano
Didn't the lad on twitter who guessed we had the 3rd lowest playing budget and is a bit of a sleuth/expert on club financesactually praise the club for the open ness of our accounts as opposed to most other clubs?


With respect forza I don’t give two hoots about other clubs, I am talking about our club and feel the club/board should engage far more with fans ( that wouldn’t be difficult).
Our published accounts are more detailed simply because we are a PLC and most other lower league football clubs are not
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MuddyWaters
November 20, 2018, 7:28pm
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Quoted from forza ivano
Didn't the lad on twitter who guessed we had the 3rd lowest playing budget and is a bit of a sleuth/expert on club financesactually praise the club for the open ness of our accounts as opposed to most other clubs?


Transparency of the accounts is standard for a PLC - truth is that our customer service makes Ryanair look good.
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lukeo
November 20, 2018, 9:21pm
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I never used to use twitter but came across their chairman (Andy) on it.. He is genuinely the only reason I go on twitter now. Decent bloke, replies to as much of his messages he can, open, honest and accy Stanley runs in his blood.
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MuddyWaters
November 20, 2018, 9:51pm
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Quoted from pen penfras


Well we just released our financial results for the season. Why should we do it on a game by game basis? No other club does and a token gesture of half the information from Accrington Stanley is not a stick worth beating the club with.


Perhaps you can get your abacus out and calculate how Accy have also managed to give out 1200 free first team shirts to primary school kids in their area too?

It's called engaging with the community - maybe we ought to try it?
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lukeo
November 20, 2018, 10:43pm
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Quoted from MuddyWaters


Perhaps you can get your abacus out and calculate how Accy have also managed to give out 1200 free first team shirts to primary school kids in their area too?

It's called engaging with the community - maybe we ought to try it?


This. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this.. They got local newspapers and radio stations involved to. Short term its probably cost the club a small fortune but actually long term even if out of 1,200 of those kids 100 become Stanley fans and go from time to time and 50 become regulars for a very long time plus anyone who sees the 'publicity stunt' and falls in love. They'll make any money back they 'lost' in doing what they've done.
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KingstonMariner
November 20, 2018, 11:27pm
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Forza, the fact our accounts are compliant doesn't mean they're the acme of transparency. Obviously we have to be careful about the need for genuine commercial confidentiality and advantage.

Maybe the judicious use of reliable information (and not JF's half member explanations) might help put the challenges the club faces into perspective and win more patience and understanding. But smoke and mirrors seems to be the preferred modus operandi.


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I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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1mickylyons
November 21, 2018, 7:24am
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Quoted from pen penfras


You can take rough numbers from that to extrapolate what we make per match.

Accy have about 1100 season tickets from what I can find in articles. So that means ticket income for 3700 extra people at about £12.30 each. Then the rest of the income averages about £3.40 each. This is before all the costs are taken out, so profit is much lower, particularly for the food, beer, programmes etc.

We have 3000 season ticket sales and average about 4300? (my guess). So using Accy's numbers:
1300 tickets sold per game = £16k per game = £365k per season.
4300 people spending £3.40 per game = £14.5k per game = £335k per season.

Just an observation and you may disagree but the GTFC Club shop seems to do a roaring trade most matchdays on merchandise. No idea what Accy have but I bet Town dwarf them on merchandise sales game by game and over a Season?
Not sure how we compare, perhaps referencing the accounts might give some idea. Their ticket prices are higher than ours, so I imagine we're actually lower than that.


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1mickylyons
November 21, 2018, 7:28am
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Quoted from lukeo


This. I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this.. They got local newspapers and radio stations involved to. Short term its probably cost the club a small fortune but actually long term even if out of 1,200 of those kids 100 become Stanley fans and go from time to time and 50 become regulars for a very long time plus anyone who sees the 'publicity stunt' and falls in love. They'll make any money back they 'lost' in doing what they've done.


A great set of fans .We played them first home game of Buckley`s 3rd stint and I got talking to a couple who were setting out their flags in the Osmond corner (more flags than fans) they were thrilled to have made it back to the league. A few year`s later I knew the feeling myself when Arnold got the goal vs FGR. I for one am delighted for those Accy fans who stuck it out and never let the club die.
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lukeo
November 21, 2018, 7:35am
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Quoted from 1mickylyons


A great set of fans .We played them first home game of Buckley`s 3rd stint and I got talking to a couple who were setting out their flags in the Osmond corner (more flags than fans) they were thrilled to have made it back to the league. A few year`s later I knew the feeling myself when Arnold got the goal vs FGR. I for one am delighted for those Accy fans who stuck it out and never let the club die.


I've not spoken to them for a few years but I used to go across to Accrington if Grimsby didn't have a game until I moved south. The ultras are actually decent bunch of people who just have a passion for their club. I managed to get to Plymouth away 2 years ago and it was still the same decent bunch. Always welcome outsiders in... Anyone remember Accy v Barnet? 100 Town fans in the Clayton End.
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pen penfras
November 21, 2018, 7:53am

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Quoted from MuddyWaters


Perhaps you can get your abacus out and calculate how Accy have also managed to give out 1200 free first team shirts to primary school kids in their area too?

It's called engaging with the community - maybe we ought to try it?


Well that's not hard to calculate, they are part of a holding company with Andy Holt's other businesses that turn over more than £50 million a year. Makes it kind of hypocritical that he criticises Salford for putting money in, yet he does the same thing at Accy but in a different way.

That's a great gesture that they've made. We can only speculate as to whether that will ultimately bring more money in or not, it certainly gets them some positive press. Would our club be given the same praise if they did that though? Everything is met with such cynicism on here that I expect it would be comments along the lines of "Fenty's trying to pull the wool over our eyes" and "it's a token gesture". Anything the club does that is good seems to get this kind of response and MJ has been credited with good things that clearly are nothing to do with him.
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dapperz fun pub
November 21, 2018, 8:22am
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Quoted from pen penfras


Well that's not hard to calculate, they are part of a holding company with Andy Holt's other businesses that turn over more than £50 million a year. Makes it kind of hypocritical that he criticises Salford for putting money in, yet he does the same thing at Accy but in a different way.

That's a great gesture that they've made. We can only speculate as to whether that will ultimately bring more money in or not, it certainly gets them some positive press. Would our club be given the same praise if they did that though? Everything is met with such cynicism on here that I expect it would be comments along the lines of "Fenty's trying to pull the wool over our eyes" and "it's a token gesture". Anything the club does that is good seems to get this kind of response and MJ has been credited with good things that clearly are nothing to do with him.


After nearly 2 decades of shitte the current regime should be grateful the fans still come in good numbers , the only thing we have got to be proud of is the fans
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Cloudy
November 21, 2018, 8:32am
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Quoted from pen penfras


Well that's not hard to calculate, they are part of a holding company with Andy Holt's other businesses that turn over more than £50 million a year. Makes it kind of hypocritical that he criticises Salford for putting money in, yet he does the same thing at Accy but in a different way.

That's a great gesture that they've made. We can only speculate as to whether that will ultimately bring more money in or not, it certainly gets them some positive press. Would our club be given the same praise if they did that though? Everything is met with such cynicism on here that I expect it would be comments along the lines of "Fenty's trying to pull the wool over our eyes" and "it's a token gesture". Anything the club does that is good seems to get this kind of response and MJ has been credited with good things that clearly are nothing to do with him.


Not quite the truth but a good try to discredit a chairman who seems to have got virtual universal approval for his openess from fans up and down the country.
The sponsorship of the Accrington Stadium by What More UK (Holts company) is not huge but it is money coming into their club  and certainly nowhere near the sum of the benign loans around the neck of GTFC.

I agree to an extent that most of what Fenty may say is treated by many with scepticim but i will just ask the question, Why do you think that maybe? Seems apt 1 year on from that disgraceful night !!
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PrestwichMariner
November 21, 2018, 8:54am
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The figures are just income though, not profit. Once the cost of purchasing the food and drink is deducted it would be interesting to see what they have left as gross profit before running costs are deducted.


Wearing badges is not enough in days like these!
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ska face
November 21, 2018, 9:55am

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Quoted from pen penfras


That's a great gesture that they've made. We can only speculate as to whether that will ultimately bring more money in or not, it certainly gets them some positive press. Would our club be given the same praise if they did that though? Everything is met with such cynicism on here that I expect it would be comments along the lines of "Fenty's trying to pull the wool over our eyes" and "it's a token gesture". Anything the club does that is good seems to get this kind of response and MJ has been credited with good things that clearly are nothing to do with him.



Absolute shite. People are judged on their actions and Holt is given the benefit of the doubt as he’s demonstrably open and honest with the best interests of the fans at heart. Fenty, on the other hand is a duplicitous, arrogant crank and has spent almost 2 decades mastering the art of ignoring fans and reducing us merely to numbers on a balance sheet.

The bloke could write the book on how to ruin relationships between a club and its fans - he actively pushed the only decent channel for engagement, in Kristine Green as SLO, out of the role and replaced her with a fuccking yes-man who can’t do the job!
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Rodley Mariner
November 21, 2018, 10:18am
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Is there actually any evidence that Accrington, top half of League 1 on 2,000 gates, is being run better than Grimsby, near the bottom of League 2 on 4,000 gates?
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Mariner Timsky
November 21, 2018, 10:21am

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner
Is there actually any evidence that Accrington, top half of League 1 on 2,000 gates, is being run better than Grimsby, near the bottom of League 2 on 4,000 gates?


Evidence in bold!



Stand Up For The Mariners!!!!!
Stand Up For The Mariners!!!!!
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Rodley Mariner
November 21, 2018, 10:22am
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Cheers Timsky. I feel like a fool now.
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Mariner Timsky
November 21, 2018, 10:24am

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Stand Up For The Mariners!!!!!
Stand Up For The Mariners!!!!!
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Bigdog
November 21, 2018, 10:27am
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Quoted from pen penfras


Well that's not hard to calculate, they are part of a holding company with Andy Holt's other businesses that turn over more than £50 million a year. Makes it kind of hypocritical that he criticises Salford for putting money in, yet he does the same thing at Accy but in a different way.

That's a great gesture that they've made. We can only speculate as to whether that will ultimately bring more money in or not, it certainly gets them some positive press. Would our club be given the same praise if they did that though? Everything is met with such cynicism on here that I expect it would be comments along the lines of "Fenty's trying to pull the wool over our eyes" and "it's a token gesture". Anything the club does that is good seems to get this kind of response and MJ has been credited with good things that clearly are nothing to do with him.


Being pragmatic, anyone could hardly blame the fans of GTFC for being cynics after the sheer mediocrity of the past twenty years surely? We have been more than patient and treated with contempt at times. The truth is, after all of this time, the relationship between fans and the owner is completely broken. It's time that everyone has to accept the fact, especially in the boardroom. Once accepted, if he loves the club, the incumbent should be moving heaven and earth to find his replacement. It's not like he learns from his mistakes. After sixteen years of him in charge, only a year ago, we had the farce that was the Fan's Forum. Cynicism works both ways, and as much as the fans are cynics of the board, the board are equally as cynical of the fans. It's a relationship that needs replacing rather than trying to be fixed if this club is to ever move forward..
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MuddyWaters
November 21, 2018, 3:22pm
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Quoted from pen penfras


Well that's not hard to calculate, they are part of a holding company with Andy Holt's other businesses that turn over more than £50 million a year. Makes it kind of hypocritical that he criticises Salford for putting money in, yet he does the same thing at Accy but in a different way.

That's a great gesture that they've made. We can only speculate as to whether that will ultimately bring more money in or not, it certainly gets them some positive press. Would our club be given the same praise if they did that though? Everything is met with such cynicism on here that I expect it would be comments along the lines of "Fenty's trying to pull the wool over our eyes" and "it's a token gesture". Anything the club does that is good seems to get this kind of response and MJ has been credited with good things that clearly are nothing to do with him.


Rewind 12 months to the Fans' Forum and you might get a fairly good idea as to why that might be the case.
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Cloudy
November 22, 2018, 7:28am
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For those who don’t do Twitter this is the latest informative info from an engaging Chairman: Ignore it if you aren’t interested

So we’ve looked at the income side matchday and the massive variance dependant on competition and the size of the following of the club visiting.
What I will do over the coming weeks and months is try to explain in very simple terms the way I look at the finances of our club,..the way rule changes affect us, both positively and negatively. My comments speak only for
@ASFCofficial
and every club is different. They are not designed to criticise the ruling authorities. I want supporters in general to see what I see and understand why I say what I say.

It will be broad brush so don’t try to forensically analyse it, but it will be accurate enough to get a steer.

So...

Matchday costs, salaries and wages.

If our total wage bill for the club is £2.2m and we play:

46
@SkyBetLeagueOne

1
@EmiratesFACup

1
@Carabao_Cup

3
@CheckatradeTrpy
trophy games the cost per game is

£2.2m/51 games or

£43,137 per game in staffing costs alone.

If the number of games goes up, the cost per game falls and vice versa.

I prefer to break it down by games because the number of games by month is so volatile for example there are NO games in June.
This basic logic means that the more games we play the less each game costs. If we play 100 games the cost would be £22,000 per game.

Rule change 1. Scrapping of emergency loans by
@FIFAcom
happened before the ink had dried on my first budget and increased playing budget by £200,000 because we had to have cover, sat around, waiting for injuries and suspensions. This is a disaster because in order to have cover some lads are trapped, neither playing for us or anyone else for the 6 months between transfer windows. I still don’t understand why
@FIFAcom
was that interested in shafting us for £200k in
@SkyBetLeagueTwo

Sticking with player budget, we account to
@EFL
under SCMP rules (I forget what that stands for) which basically limits the amount we can spend on
..our squad to 55% of gross profit (reducing to 50% off memory)
This would be good but for the loopholes that effectively mean you can do what you want as an owner. A billionaire can have a limitless budget in
@SkyBetLeagueTwo
and
@SkyBetLeagueOne
raising costs for everyone which is why I called for some upper limit. A billionaire could fund a
@premierleague
side to compete in
@SkyBetLeagueTwo
as it stands.

If we move on to the number of games, it make sense for our club to play more, cost per game is less; the failed Whole game solution proposed reducing the number of teams per league from 24 to 20 and the number of game played to 38 from 46.

and more games, the authorities want less games and increase our cost by imposing new rules.

If this is boring ignore it!This would reduce the game count by 8 from 51 to 43 and increased our staff costs per game from £43,137 to £51,163. It took away
@EmiratesFACup
replays, along with windfall hopes of an away replay
@ManUtd
as well as the hope of increasing the number of games. This was being done because
@premierleague
stars need a rest! No consideration was give to the impact on Accy.

So, wage costs and number of games. I want lower cost
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jamesgtfc
November 22, 2018, 12:20pm
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This guy at Accrington is something of a revolution in terms of football ownership.

Not afraid to criticise the powers above either
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