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Grim74
March 28, 2019, 9:52am
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Quoted from LH
I don’t understand why MPs are so against a re-run of a referendum with facts attached. It’s win/win. If they’re so certain that the will of the people is to leave it’ll win at a canter even if it was May’s deal vs remain. If remain wins then they’ve misread the will of the people and are corrected. Either way they’ve absolved themselves of any blame and they can go on robbing a living from the taxpayer. Whatever democracy is in this country the last few months in the Commons absolutely has not been a democracy that anyone in this country voted for in 2017.


We the british public were well informed this was an historic once in a lifetime vote (there would be no second referendum) that’s it the end of debate, if the vote had gone the other way you would be saying Jackshxt!! Agree with the last part of your post.


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Maringer
March 28, 2019, 10:15am
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It already was a second referendum. The first one was held back in 1975.

If you're so confident that the British public still wants to leave, what can be the harm in a vote to confirm they support whichever deal is eventually agreed?

As your man Rees-Mogg said in Parliament back in 2011, "“We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed."

He's since rowed back on this, of course.

Of course, if the event of such a confirmatory vote, we'd have to make sure that the DUP didn't collude by accepting and spending illegal donations and, if they did, the Electoral Commission should prosecute this time around. Nobody seems to know why the didn't prosecute last time when the DUP treasurer has admitted he (and the donor) broke the law.

Some proper fact-checking by the media to point out blatant lies in the campaigning would be helpful as well.
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grimsby pete
March 28, 2019, 10:56am

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Quoted from Maringer
It already was a second referendum. The first one was held back in 1975.

If you're so confident that the British public still wants to leave, what can be the harm in a vote to confirm they support whichever deal is eventually agreed?

As your man Rees-Mogg said in Parliament back in 2011, "“We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed."

He's since rowed back on this, of course.

Of course, if the event of such a confirmatory vote, we'd have to make sure that the DUP didn't collude by accepting and spending illegal donations and, if they did, the Electoral Commission should prosecute this time around. Nobody seems to know why the didn't prosecute last time when the DUP treasurer has admitted he (and the donor) broke the law.

Some proper fact-checking by the media to point out blatant lies in the campaigning would be helpful as well.


Most people who want a 2nd referendum think we will vote remain this time,

BUT

What happens if the leave vote wins 51 to 49 ?

We are no further down the road and wasted another few months,

The problem is with the MP's  they can nor decide on what they want they can all say what they don't want.

So maybe they should have one more vote that asks in or out.

If stay in wins let the MP's go back and tell their voters why they betrayed the 17.4 million.

It will not happen so we will still be talking about this next year,


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Ipswin
March 28, 2019, 11:42am
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Quoted from grimsby pete


Most people who want a 2nd referendum think we will vote remain this time,

BUT

What happens if the leave vote wins 51 to 49 ?

We are no further down the road and wasted another few months,

The problem is with the MP's  they can nor decide on what they want they can all say what they don't want.

So maybe they should have one more vote that asks in or out.

If stay in wins let the MP's go back and tell their voters why they betrayed the 17.4 million.

It will not happen so we will still be talking about this next year,



I think folk are so drunk off with Brexit (it has replaced PPI as the world's most hated word or phrase) that the majority in favour of leaving might be even greater so I don't see why so many are excrement scared of having a second vote.

At least if there was to be a second vote (after the 'deal' is finally agreed - if that ever happens) people might realise that they had no idea what they were voting for in the first vote, that the vast amounts promised to the NHS and the end of immigration were absolute lies and that the reality of leaving the EU will be much more serious.

Did no one who voted to leave (especially the elderly clearly taken in by the NHS and immigration lies) think about the future generations after they are dead and gone ?

Remainer - yes I am!


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Ipswin
March 28, 2019, 11:45am
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Quoted from Grim74


We the british public were well informed this was an historic once in a lifetime vote (there would be no second referendum) that’s it the end of debate, if the vote had gone the other way you would be saying Jackshxt!! Agree with the last part of your post.


But they weren't that's the whole point. People had no idea what they were voting for (if there was another vote tomorrow they still wouldn't!) that's precisely why there should be another vote on the final deal (whatever that is)

How the intercourse could they ask people and how the intercourse could people decide what they wanted when no one knew what it would entail?


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grimsby pete
March 28, 2019, 12:12pm

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Quoted from Ipswin


But they weren't that's the whole point. People had no idea what they were voting for (if there was another vote tomorrow they still wouldn't!) that's precisely why there should be another vote on the final deal (whatever that is)

How the intercourse could they ask people and how the intercourse could people decide what they wanted when no one knew what it would entail?


The only way I can see all this coming to an agreement because the MP'S will be here until the cows come home is to either have an election or another referendum .

This is not my choice but I can not see any other way,


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GrimRob
March 28, 2019, 12:49pm

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Quoted from grimsby pete


The only way I can see all this coming to an agreement because the MP'S will be here until the cows come home is to either have an election or another referendum .

This is not my choice but I can not see any other way,


How can they have another election though when there are so many parties within parties? A second referendum with choices of either remain or whatever deal is acceptable to MPs seems a no-brainer to me. Failing that revoke Article 50, have a general election and people can choose the government they want (within the limitations of FPTP).


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Grim74
March 28, 2019, 1:17pm
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Quoted from Ipswin


But they weren't that's the whole point. People had no idea what they were voting for (if there was another vote tomorrow they still wouldn't!) that's precisely why there should be another vote on the final deal (whatever that is)

How the intercourse could they ask people and how the intercourse could people decide what they wanted when no one knew what it would entail?


Couple of things firstly the £9M  pounds propaganda leaflet delivered to every home in the country spelled out exactly what was involved especially if we dared to vote leave.
Secondly we didn’t vote for a deal the mandate was to leave any deals could and would of taken care of themselves.

I take on board what you are saying but if you were at such a basic level of political understanding then I doubt there would be any change now and that goes for the leave and remain voters.

The only genuine option that respects the vote now is to just leave WTO I believe in my Country to pull through to be prosperous and free, I just cannot for the life of me understand why my fellow countrymen and women would want their once proud nation to be nothing more than a puppet state 😔


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Grim74
March 28, 2019, 1:21pm
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Quoted from Maringer
It already was a second referendum. The first one was held back in 1975.


Yes once  in a generation so you can have another one in about 45 years 😁


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Maringer
March 28, 2019, 4:56pm
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Quoted from Grim74

The only genuine option that respects the vote now is to just leave WTO I believe in my Country to pull through to be prosperous and free, I just cannot for the life of me understand why my fellow countrymen and women would want their once proud nation to be nothing more than a puppet state 😔


Nah - May's deal would lead to Brexit as well. If May wasn't so reliant on the DUP, it would have sailed through long ago. The backstop would only apply if a sensible agreement wasn't made and both sides want to have one so that's just a red herring. The ERGers are just attempting to use the DUP as an excuse to get the damaging hard Brexit they desire either for inane ideological reasons or self-serving interest. Lots of money to be made for those with it already. Let's not forget that the economic model they want to follow happily throws our agricultural sector under the bus. For instance, a hard Brexit would lead to a mass cull of lambs (reportedly up to 10 million) due to the WTO export tarriffs we'd have to apply. I'd imagine this would put many sheep farmers out of business in one fell swoop. Only people with absolutely no understanding of the problems (or an ulterior motive) want a hard Brexit. It's noticeable that many of the most avid supporters of a hard Brexit (fuckwits such as Fox) are the ones who claimed countries would be queueing up to make deals with us, and they haven't. Something which betrays a lack of understanding of how trade deals actually work which is a pity as these were the idiots trying to arrange them.

Funnily enough with the backstop in effect, Northern Ireland would actually be reaping some of the benefits of EU membership and the province voted heavily in favour of remain so the DUP are in effect trying to shaft their own for ideological reasons. Given their past support for sectarian paramilitaries, they're probably hoping for a return to the good old days of the troubles.

And no, we aren't a puppet state because we helped to make the decisions and draft the EU regulations in the first place. It's how the EU works.

My view would be that, with the failure of the government to produce a deal which can be agreed, parliament should have indicative votes comes up with a deal of whatever sort (apart from an idiotic 'No deal' or one based on Unicorns and rainbows which will never be agreed). This should then get put to a vote by the people who would then at least know what they are voting for. As I've said in the past, a multiple-choice transferrable vote referendum would be the best option, providing the weighting was fair.

If the public then still want us to leave, then so be it. It's not as if we haven't been warned.

Around 2 million voters who were too young to have a say back in 2016 have now reached voting age so you must surely agree that they be allowed to express their opinion because it must count more than the similar number who have died since then? They will be the ones living with the decision, after all. The opinions of the dead don't matter, because they don't have any.
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