Bury live - can't see the problem

I know it's being discussed elsewhere, but I thought I'd start this thread as the other one now seems to be about Accrington.  I know some people won't agree, to put it mildly, but I think the matches being streamed on iFollow - even on a Saturday afternoon - is brilliant.  I've lived in London for many years and always go and watch Town when they play in the south.  I'll continue to do that: I chose to go to MK Downs rather than watch on iFollow and will be at Stevenage in a couple of weeks (I don't believe in boycotts because it's us who'll suffer from a lack of support).  There'll be thousands of Town fans who don't go to away games including many who can't go because of the cost or illness.  For those of us who live far from Grimsby this is nothing less than a lifeline.  And don't forget the revenue: I wouldn't be surprised if it could add £100,000+ to a club's income.  Whether it has a detrimental impact on home gates remains to be seen, but the argument against live streaming is similar to that which saw music streaming and e-books as the end of the music & books industry.  The effect has been quite the opposite - it has broadened their appeal and has introduced new audiences (I happen to work in one of these industries and can personally vouch for it).  There is no reason why this could not work for football too, introducing new supporters and more revenue.  The idea of people going to a Saturday afternoon game in the same way as they have done for 100+ years is - to an extent - antiquated, rather like the famous Lowry painting of fans going to a match.  People live their lives differently now and football has to recognise that.

It's not quite clear how the IFollow money is split - I saw figures of 80% going to the club, but I don't know if it goes to the home club or the away club, or the club of the website you purchased the pass from.

I agree though. Some clubs bring such small away attendances that you're likely to make more revenue from exiled mariners than you are away fans.

Valid points, in the meantime a vpn showing you from another country can be used to gain access on a Saturday at 3pm right?

i can understand the benefits if you live away or your ill etc, but we will reach a point especially in the winter we’re people decide to stay at home in the warmth or go to the coach house (which I am boycotting) and watch it there.  We will have a generation of kids who will never experience that cold winters tues night under the floodlights, all because it’s a tad to cold.

The consequences are there for all to see if you just look to the continent. In France and Spain the top two divisions play at different times and then the divisions below stagger their kick-offs around the local 'big' team which is normally in one of the top two divisions. The gates in these leagues are terribly low.

A lot of the games, if not all, are televised in the top flight and with the big sides games not being at the same time people simply don't attend lower division football.

In the Basque Country, Santutxu and Barakaldo play in the 4th and 3rd tier respectively. If they get 150 and 2000 through the gate they are delighted.

When I lived in France, Red Star Paris and Paris FC were equally please with gates of around a 1,000 (this was before the petrodollars turned up).

We should all be very concerned about this (as this will lead to top flight football being televised at 3pm) and the developments in the League Cup and Checkatrade which devalue and undermine our club.

It is an interesting point...i myself am now doubting whether or not to go to Bury now... whereas i was 80% likely to go i am now 80% unlikely to go.
I presume that would be to Bury's detriment as they wont get my circa £20 entry, £3 programme, £4 half time spend ...also local businesses in Bury wont have my business either.

Not sure how the money is divided/split but as we are generally a decently supported team away from home will this impact more on our rivals....could we cunningly just stop going away to impact their spending power ??

In your access all games future...what if we drew Man Utd away in the cup and  the gate receipts were minimal because 70,000 Man Utd fans werent bothered about shelling out £30 to watch Town and watched it on I follow instead ?

I just don't see that happening. People don't stop going to gigs just because they can stream the music on Spotify.

Check the average atttendances in the third and fourth tiers in France, Spain, Germany and Italy Dan

Quoted from Dan

I just don't see that happening. People don't stop going to gigs just because they can stream the music on Spotify.

You’re not expected to watch the same band 46 times in a row, generally outside in the cold, with two months off a year, until you die.

I'm guessing by that Santutxo used to get bigger gates back in the day?

Quoted from Abdul19

I'm guessing by that Santutxo used to get bigger gates back in the day?

Judging by the archive photos, yes, both Santutxu and Barakaldo used to get bigger crowds although I sincerely doubt Santatuxu got more than a couple of thousand.

Quoted from Paris Mariner

Check the average atttendances in the third and fourth tiers in France, Spain, Germany and Italy Dan

Yeah, but those leagues have NEVER had professional clubs in the way we do. Low attendances in those leagues is nothing to do with TV and everything to do with the fact that those are amateur teams equivalent to our level 6 or 7 or B teams (and who wants to watch those?)

France: Ligue 1 and Ligue 2 are professional with a few professional clubs below. 46 Professional teams in total. Exactly half of our 92, and that's not including the conference which is close to 100% pro now.
Spain: 42 Professional clubs. B teams play at Level 3.
Germany: Only got it's nationwide third division in 2008 and level 4 and below is regionalised. Only the top 3 leagues are professional and reserve teams can play in League 3. There are 56 professional teams.
Italy Only Serie A and B are national leagues. Serie C is regionalised. Serie C has attendances on par with Conference clubs.

Basically, we have an entirely different setup and history here to those leagues and the comparison is not fair or accurate.

Quoted from ska face

You’re not expected to watch the same band 46 times in a row, generally outside in the cold, with two months off a year, until you die.

I would if it was Fleetwood Mac

Quoted from Dan

I would if it was Fleetwood Mac

i'd rather jack....than Fleetwood Mac  

Quoted from Mariner55

I know it's being discussed elsewhere, but I thought I'd start this thread as the other one now seems to be about Accrington.  I know some people won't agree, to put it mildly, but I think the matches being streamed on iFollow - even on a Saturday afternoon - is brilliant.  I've lived in London for many years and always go and watch Town when they play in the south.  I'll continue to do that: I chose to go to MK Downs rather than watch on iFollow and will be at Stevenage in a couple of weeks (I don't believe in boycotts because it's us who'll suffer from a lack of support).  There'll be thousands of Town fans who don't go to away games including many who can't go because of the cost or illness.  For those of us who live far from Grimsby this is nothing less than a lifeline.  And don't forget the revenue: I wouldn't be surprised if it could add £100,000+ to a club's income.  Whether it has a detrimental impact on home gates remains to be seen, but the argument against live streaming is similar to that which saw music streaming and e-books as the end of the music & books industry.  The effect has been quite the opposite - it has broadened their appeal and has introduced new audiences (I happen to work in one of these industries and can personally vouch for it).  There is no reason why this could not work for football too, introducing new supporters and more revenue.  The idea of people going to a Saturday afternoon game in the same way as they have done for 100+ years is - to an extent - antiquated, rather like the famous Lowry painting of fans going to a match.  People live their lives differently now and football has to recognise that.

A nostalgic comparison but I thought the Lowry figures were going to work?  

Quoted from Dan

I just don't see that happening. People don't stop going to gigs just because they can stream the music on Spotify.

But Spotify isn't live music. The real analogy would be live streaming of a gig.

Quoted from Dan

Yeah, but those leagues have NEVER had professional clubs in the way we do. Low attendances in those leagues is nothing to do with TV and everything to do with the fact that those are amateur teams equivalent to our level 6 or 7 or B teams (and who wants to watch those?)

France: Ligue 1 and Ligue 2 are professional with a few professional clubs below. 46 Professional teams in total. Exactly half of our 92, and that's not including the conference which is close to 100% pro now.
Spain: 42 Professional clubs. B teams play at Level 3.
Germany: Only got it's nationwide third division in 2008 and level 4 and below is regionalised. Only the top 3 leagues are professional and reserve teams can play in League 3. There are 56 professional teams.
Italy Only Serie A and B are national leagues. Serie C is regionalised. Serie C has attendances on par with Conference clubs.

Basically, we have an entirely different setup and history here to those leagues and the comparison is not fair or accurate.



I would if it was Fleetwood Mac

Maybe B teams have stifled the lower division clubs development in those countries.

Lol some miserable sods have a problem with everything. You're like stuck records. If you don't like it then stop using your VPN's to watch every away game for cheaper.

I kind of take 55's OP. But I'd want to see some built in protections before giving this the nod. It all seems to have gone through on the nod without due consideration. No proper debate by all key stakeholders. Sure it means I'd get more chance of seeing a Town game live and for the club to squeeze a bit more money out of me, but what protection is there for clubs? How much of my tenner actually goes to the club? Who controls iFollow? What happens a few years down the line - what influence have individual clubs got on the deal? What real power has the FL got over the company? Do they bid out the franchise to get the best deal? What happens if people stop going, will there be 2 subscribers at £10 a game to replace each lost £20 entry ticket?

Last season it was just live streaming of 3PM games for those abroad. It all seems rushed through with unseemly haste.

Beware of Geeks bearing gifts.

This is very dangerous. Every person who sings its praises due to personal convenience is overlooking the bigger picture. If we were at home against Mansfield for a 1pm kick off and they brought half as many than usual how much would we lose. Do we not worry that a rule that has been established for 50 years has been broken? Would we love town as much if our first game had been watching on TV? Would we intercourse

The OP that compares this to books/ebooks is really missing thepoint. When u read an ebook OR a real book you do it on your own, it's a solitary activity. This is the total opposite of football. With live football the atmosphere generated by lots of other people being there is a lot of the attraction. As the atmosphere declines so does the incentive to pay extra and have the hassle of going vs just watching on tv. Therefore more and more people are inclined to just watch on Internet, leading to a further decline in atmosphere and so on in a downward spiral

Quoted from moosey_club

could we cunningly just stop going away to impact their spending power ??

What about backing our boys and inspiring them to victory, building a comaradery and even inspiring potential new signings to sign on the dotted line for us?

Many a new signing has mentioned they know of or have heard of our fantastic away support.

Plus wouldn't every club be hit? It wouldn't just be a cunning ploy by us. Okay the club's with greater away support would potentially do marginally more 'damage' but as our personal contribution to each club would be one game with a few tickets less sold is that really worth the lack of atmosphere, vibe and proudness looking round at a vast sea of Black & White?

If we all stopped going it would be an embarrassment.  Imagine Gimps and Scunt troll's laughter at us if they didn't play the same game.

If this allowed to carry on and grow arms and legs the atmosphere at BP or any of our away games, which are generally in smaller stadia, would be like kicking a tin can down a ten foot!!...
This has the knock on effect to the players who lose motivation, the games become stale and in the end nobody either watches the games on ifollow let alone attend games...lose-lose situation in my book....certainly makes its a whole lot worse if another thread is correct and the club receives zero funding from the ifollow subscriptions..

At least this has been a comparatively civilized discussion, which I was hoping for when I made the original post.  A couple of points:
- Lowry did a number of football related paintings, crowds of his matchstick men and boys going to matches ...
- I agree we need more information, especially on impact on gates of live streaming.
- It's not about personal convenience - I've already said I'll go to matches in the south rather than watch on iFollow
- but ... this is about how people live and organise their lives now and in the future and to deny live streaming will be a backward step.  I'm convinced this could bring in new audiences and new revenue.

Quoted from Mariner55

At least this has been a comparatively civilized discussion, which I was hoping for when I made the original post.  A couple of points:
- Lowry did a number of football related paintings, crowds of his matchstick men and boys going to matches ...
- I agree we need more information, especially on impact on gates of live streaming.
- It's not about personal convenience - I've already said I'll go to matches in the south rather than watch on iFollow
- but ... this is about how people live and organise their lives now and in the future and to deny live streaming will be a backward step.  I'm convinced this could bring in new audiences and new revenue.

You're right to point out how difficult it is to ignore changes in technological capabilities and market pressures. However, Imo the response to those things should be a well thought out plan that works through all the major implications for the key stakeholders, and looks 3 or 4 steps down the line. How exactly will live streaming bring in new audiences? Where are we suddenly going to find those people interested in watching lower league football? Why would they pay to watch that level rather than spend their money on the top leagues or some other pastime? What's the size of this additional market and what is the risk to existing revenue streams.

The League might have thought of all these things but with their track record I wouldn't be surprised if it's all done on the back of a fagpacket. It is the organisation that brought us the Checkatrade and ITV Digital fiascos.

Quoted from Mallyner

A nostalgic comparison but I thought the Lowry figures were going to work?  

I have a print of Lowry’s “The football match”, and in typical fashion the characters are all walking to the ground with their heads down and shoulders rounded....

...., perhaps Slade had just been announced as their Manager?  

Mariner55 might want to reassess his original statement after today  

Quoted from Rik e B

What about backing our boys and inspiring them to victory, building a comaradery and even inspiring potential new signings to sign on the dotted line for us?

Many a new signing has mentioned they know of or have heard of our fantastic away support.

Plus wouldn't every club be hit? It wouldn't just be a cunning ploy by us. Okay the club's with greater away support would potentially do marginally more 'damage' but as our personal contribution to each club would be one game with a few tickets less sold is that really worth the lack of atmosphere, vibe and proudness looking round at a vast sea of Black & White?

If we all stopped going it would be an embarrassment.  Imagine Gimps and Scunt troll's laughter at us if they didn't play the same game.

all valid, my comments were aimed at someone who was supporting releasing all the games ...i am completely against having any games on but fully anticipate within a few seasons all games will be available....the clubs never seem to realise beware people bearing gifts...."its a commentary and highlights package....unrivalled ....only oversea's subscribers can watch......games outside of the traditional window only......oh its a one off as its international week...."
Endless b0ll0cks from i follow and the clubs swallow it.

Quoted from moosey_club

all valid, my comments were aimed at someone who was supporting releasing all the games ...i am completely against having any games on but fully anticipate within a few seasons all games will be available....the clubs never seem to realise beware people bearing gifts...."its a commentary and highlights package....unrivalled ....only oversea's subscribers can watch......games outside of the traditional window only......oh its a one off as its international week...."
Endless b0ll0cks from i follow and the clubs swallow it.

Endless balderdash that fans also swallow.