A solution to this B team Fiasco ?

How about this for a solution ?

If the prem want to play their young players against men let them play in the national league,

There could be 12 B teams and 12 other clubs,

The B teams are not allowed to be promoted,

This makes it a lot easier tor proper clubs playing in that league to get promoted back into the league,

So you still have one team promoted and another 6 in the play offs,

.

Here's a fix, let the prem youth come through their parent clubs first team? Easy

So what happens to the 12 National League clubs (all of whom, 'proper clubs' or not, have earned their place at that level) you're kicking out to make room for the B teams?

I actually think this is a worse idea than the Checkatrade Trophy, which is some going!

Presumably, the B teams wouldn't get relegated either so it would also be easier for "proper" clubs to be relegated also. 7 proper teams would be in auto or playoff promotion spots and 4 would be relegated, leaving one spot for a mid-table "proper club".

And if the point is that the B teams can play against "men" with 12 of them in one league half of their games would be against other B teams anyway.

I like the creative thinking but its back to the drawing board with you Pete.

The problem with English football was never an issue surrounding B-Teams. There's been talk in both Germany and Spain to scrap B-Teams as they are a waste of money.

Germany and Spain both have far more coaches than us and have a history of possession based football. This is where the FA (are finally, but rightly) now focusing on.

The fact that so many England players have found a route through lower and even non league shows a strength of our system and not a weakness.

The reason I oppose B teams is that I believe i will stifle development and encourage uncompetiveness something that will harm the English National team as well as the game as a whole.

Quoted from grimsby pete

How about this for a solution ?

If the prem want to play their young players against men let them play in the national league,

There could be 12 B teams and 12 other clubs,

The B teams are not allowed to be promoted,

This makes it a lot easier tor proper clubs playing in that league to get promoted back into the league,

So you still have one team promoted and another 6 in the play offs,

.

But you are accepting the principle of having B teams in the football pyramid.

Surely it's better to just confine them to a cup competition?

I can understand fans fears that the Checkatrade could lead to Premiersh*t B teams in the Football League structure but I cannot see the required number of FL clubs would vote for this. The start of every season there is  at least 10 teams in each league who genuinely believe they have a real chance of promotion. There is no way those clubs would vote through a proposal that would reduce their chances of promotion. It's one thing having a cup run that could potentially earn a nice amount of money in one season  ( didn't Lincoln get a total of £500,000 from their cup run) but a totally different situation that could generate vast amounts more for years to come through promotion. Likewise do you think a club would risk it's league position or status with the possibility of a Premiersh*t B team getting 6 points against it and any of those 6 points being responsible for it's demise?  I know some of you think it's the " thin end of the wedge " but I think the majority of FL clubs have too much to lose to allow that to happen.

If the premier league are so adamant about their B teams being allowed league status, which we all know is their ultimate plan, then set up a B league...each premier league club has the ability to self fund the notion and this would leave the EFL clubs out and allow us to get back to playing for the "football league" trophy....

Quoted from pizzzza

Presumably, the B teams wouldn't get relegated either so it would also be easier for "proper" clubs to be relegated also. 7 proper teams would be in auto or playoff promotion spots and 4 would be relegated, leaving one spot for a mid-table "proper club".

And if the point is that the B teams can play against "men" with 12 of them in one league half of their games would be against other B teams anyway.

I like the creative thinking but its back to the drawing board with you Pete.

No I should have said they can get relegated and promoted back to the national league but not promoted to the football league,

I gather its a bad idea but never mind it wont happen anyway.

I think if the FA are serious about getting young players playing than they need to start limiting the amount of young players the top teams can have in their academies. They are scoping up the talent like a Russian freezer boat in the hope that they find a rare Wayne Rooney and vast majority are than discarded with the wrong attitude to play in a real league. This way if the players are good  enough they will be playing regular football by the age of 18 and learning like tony ford the Moore brothers and lately Harry Clifton , not driving round in flash cars and thinking they are too good to play for the likes of town

How about the premsheit just do one or set up there own separate league for them only and leave us alone

how about add one space to each of league one, two and the national (25 competing). Those spots are all St George's Park Fc. they only have English players and cant get promoted or relegated. They compete the same and the english players are drawn from the top English players currently available for loans.

Quoted from horsforthmariner

The problem with English football was never an issue surrounding B-Teams. There's been talk in both Germany and Spain to scrap B-Teams as they are a waste of money.

Germany and Spain both have far more coaches than us and have a history of possession based football. This is where the FA (are finally, but rightly) now focusing on.

The fact that so many England players have found a route through lower and even non league shows a strength of our system and not a weakness.

The reason I oppose B teams is that I believe i will stifle development and encourage uncompetiveness something that will harm the English National team as well as the game as a whole.

According to one daily paper Gareth Southgate backs the Checkertrade Trophy because he thinks it's " an important vehicle for homegrown players". I would have thought that his experience managing the developing England squad would give him some insight into what is required for young footballers development. Last season 118 players from the invited teams were English and under 21.

How about leave the league structure as it is as there's nothing wrong with it and the whole thing shouldn't be set up with the principal aim of serving the interests of half a dozen clubs sat right at the top, rolling in cash already?

How about we adopt the Spanish league, were you are only allowed one manager throughout one season, less managers getting the sack and MAYBE more willing to use the youth players, rather than the foreign imports, in the knowledge that they have a season, rather than 5/6 games to get it right.

Quoted from Northbank Mariner

If the premier league are so adamant about their B teams being allowed league status, which we all know is their ultimate plan, then set up a B league...each premier league club has the ability to self fund the notion and this would leave the EFL clubs out and allow us to get back to playing for the "football league" trophy....

But it's not the Premiersh*t that's pushing for this. It's the EFL trying to keep a cup competition alive that is aimed at the bottom two leagues.

Quoted from denni266

How about the premsheit just do one or set up there own separate league for them only and leave us alone

I have mentioned this before and also added,

The B team travels down on the same day as the 1st team and play against each other after the 1st team game has finished.

It would be interesting to see how many of the crowd stay behind to watch them.

What is the problem that the idea of B teams is trying to solve?

That due to improved scouting at the top level, fewer emerging players get exposed to first team football at a young age than they used to because they find themselves lost in the ‘development’ systems of big clubs rather than being blooded for their local team, a la Gary Croft, John Oster etc. I don’t think we’d have seen the likes of those to at Town aged 16 in the current climate.

The problem with the current solution, or at least the one it aspires to become (i.e. b-sides competing in the football league pyramid) is that it fails to recognise that lower league football in England is unlike anywhere else in the world. Attendances at every single level below the Prem are many multiples of those of the equivalent levels in countries like Spain, Italy and even Germany where, it has to be said, they get a lot right from the fans’ perspective.

In introducing B teams, you ultimately destroy the sanctity, history and tradition of the English game and in doing so, you kill the clubs these sides are wanting to compete against. It won’t work in this country for that reason, but there would be serious casualties before that realisation set in.

So how about a solution that doesn’t kill clubs like Town, but seeks to actively help them whilst still benefitting the development of ‘elite’ young players?

Now, there’s a lot I don’t like about American sport (not least the franchising aspect) however they have created a far more equal competitive environment over there than we have in world football.

One aspect which helps here is the draft system, whereby each team takes it in turns to select from the cream of rookie talent that year. Crucially, the least successful team from last year gets the first pick of each round whilst the winner picks last, resulting in much more balance over time.

This isn’t perfect, because it rewards failure and punished success which doesn’t seem right, so how about this?

Loan draft system

- Each Premier League side designates 4 top young players to be made available to League One clubs, and 4 to League Two, with all costs covered.

- 6 out of those 8 players must be eligible for a home nation team.

- The club in each division with the lowest wages to revenue % the previous season gets the first pick of each round, while the biggest overspender picks last.

- Loan players cannot be recalled, but may be replaced by another player from that club if a long-term injury occurs

So, big clubs get to blood their youngsters, frugal lower league clubs are rewarded with the best young players at no cost, whilst it also dissuades others from spending far more than they can generate (a la Scunny) which is a long-term recipe for disaster.

Could that work?

Yes that sounds a good idea Poojah

Quoted from The Yard Dog

How about we adopt the Spanish league, were you are only allowed one manager throughout one season, less managers getting the sack and MAYBE more willing to use the youth players, rather than the foreign imports, in the knowledge that they have a season, rather than 5/6 games to get it right.

Because if that was the rule we would currently be a non league club

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

How about leave the league structure as it is as there's nothing wrong with it and the whole thing shouldn't be set up with the principal aim of serving the interests of half a dozen clubs sat right at the top, rolling in cash already?

But none of the governing bodies in English football ( The Premiersh*t, The FA and The EFL ) are proposing to alter the league structure. One person ( Harvey I think ) mentioned it as a possibility but a lot of fans seem to think that the inclusion of B teams in The Checkertrade Trophy will ultimately lead to them being included in the league structure which is total conjecture.

Quoted from grimsby pete

How about this for a solution ?

If the prem want to play their young players against men let them play in the national league,

There could be 12 B teams and 12 other clubs,

The B teams are not allowed to be promoted,

This makes it a lot easier tor proper clubs playing in that league to get promoted back into the league,

So you still have one team promoted and another 6 in the play offs,

.

Would you still think it was good idea if we get relegated?

Quoted from rancido

But it's not the Premiersh*t that's pushing for this. It's the EFL trying to keep a cup competition alive that is aimed at the bottom two leagues.

So adding B teams to the mix helps how?  

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

So adding B teams to the mix helps how?  

The thinking behind it was that invited Premiersh*t teams would include young talented players which might be an incentive for higher gates when they played at lower league clubs. I'm not saying it would but that was the reasoning behind it. It was also thought that it would be a good experience for these players to play against experienced teams. I , personally , don't have a problem with the Checkertrade format as long as it doesn't impact on the EFL structure, which I don't think it will.

Quoted from rancido

The thinking behind it was that invited Premiersh*t teams would include young talented players which might be an incentive for higher gates when they played at lower league clubs. I'm not saying it would but that was the reasoning behind it. It was also thought that it would be a good experience for these players to play against experienced teams. I , personally , don't have a problem with the Checkertrade format as long as it doesn't impact on the EFL structure, which I don't think it will.

You dont have a problem in playing another clubs 3rd or 4th string in a competitive fixture? Don't you think League 1 and 2 clubs that have been around for more than 100 years deserve to be treated with a little more respect?

I too dont think that 'B' teams will be in the FL structure in the next 5 years or so but the concept has been talked about. The chairman of football league clubs have proven they will dance for a few peanuts. JF said himself that it is the money involved that made owners vote in favour. Never say never.
It may not bother me personally at my age, but I want to see my grandchildren be able to watch Grimsby Town as a proud member of the Football League.

Quoted from BackHeelTony

Would you still think it was good idea if we get relegated?

I hope we never get relegated to that league ever again,

BUT

If we did it would be a lot easier getting back if   12  teams in that league are not allowed to be promoted

If the Premiershite clubs want to rig the system so they can sign up any slightly promising young player from the Academies of smaller clubs for a pittance (and they have), it's up to them to make sure that the players get competitive games, not us. No smaller club should have to suffer relegation from their rightful level because of the greed of the big boys.

Many of the young players kicking their heels at Chelsea/Arsenal/Man United/Man City etc would undoubtedly be playing in the Chuckatrade or even the League if they had been left at their 'home' academies in the first place. If they want to 'steal' young players from other clubs, it's up to them to loan them out again at favourable rates to ensure they get competitive football.

Look at players such as Loftus-Cheek who has done pretty well for England since he got into the team despite not playing much club football. In fact, he's made as many appearances for England representative teams as he has competitive club fixtures and this at the age of 22. In comparison, Ryan Bennett had made well over 200 club appearances by the time he reached the same age, at GTFC, Peterborough and Norwich. Loftus-Cheek obviously a more talented player, but who knows how well he might have developed had he played a similar number of matches at lower levels when younger?

What about Harry Kane - would he have won the Golden Boot this summer if he'd spent his teens rotting in Tottenham's reserves instead of heading out on loan?

'B' teams are balderdash. Send players out on loan instead and, if this means you need to employ extra coaches to travel the country and observe them in training/matches, then fair enough. Not as if the big boys can't afford it.

If there was a Bentley Scale for sh.it ideas this one would register a big fat 10

Quoted from Cloudy

You dont have a problem in playing another clubs 3rd or 4th string in a competitive fixture? Don't you think League 1 and 2 clubs that have been around for more than 100 years deserve to be treated with a little more respect?

I too dont think that 'B' teams will be in the FL structure in the next 5 years or so but the concept has been talked about. The chairman of football league clubs have proven they will dance for a few peanuts. JF said himself that it is the money involved that made owners vote in favour. Never say never.
It may not bother me personally at my age, but I want to see my grandchildren be able to watch Grimsby Town as a proud member of the Football League.

But it happens all the time when top Premiersh*t clubs play low league teams in the FA cup. Their teams are full of second rate players so where is the respect in that?

Quoted from rancido

But it happens all the time when top Premiersh*t clubs play low league teams in the FA cup. Their teams are full of second rate players so where is the respect in that?

Please read what i posted!

I said about a clubs 3rd or 4th strings, not their top 25 registered players. The people playing in the Checkatrade for the top clubs are kids  who should have been out on loan getting battled hardened in league football, or actually coming throught the ranks at Southend, Bury or wherever and once they know what the game is about getting bought to go into the top clubs squads.

I appreciate times have changed but your defence of the Checkertrade trophy/EFL is bordering on bullying

[I want to see my grandchildren be able to watch Grimsby Town as a proud member of the Football League.

And if they asked you to take them to see town in a checkatrade game would you refuse to take them because of your own beliefs??....

Quoted from Northbank Mariner

[I want to see my grandchildren be able to watch Grimsby Town as a proud member of the Football League.

And if they asked you to take them to see town in a checkatrade game would you refuse to take them because of your own beliefs??....

Yes because I see my duty as a parent and a grandparent to educate. Once they reach maturity they will learn to read, weight up the information and then decided the EFL Trophy is a crazy idea!!!

Quoted from Cloudy

Yes because I see my duty as a parent and a grandparent to educate. Once they reach maturity they will learn to read, weight up the information and then decided the EFL Trophy is a crazy idea!!!

The exact reason I took my boy last night and a few others I spoke to at the game, but I believe by the time our kids and grandkids, respectively, have grown up don't you think the whole of the footballing landscape will have changed beyond all recognition of what we have now??...we can fight to maintain the history of the game but it moves on, sometimes we have to accept that the future of football is shifting, wether we like it or not..

There should be a cap on the number of young players that each academy can take, a cap on the number of seniors in a squad, and a requirement that each match day squad has an under 20 in it.

The bigger clubs simply horde talent these days to prevent other clubs from signing them and to see them on at a later date.

I agree that the days of a John Oster, Gary Croft etc are likely to get ever rarer in the current system.

Why don't Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool eff off and start a European league, then we can let 5 more teams into the league structure from below. They can please themselves what they do with their boatloads of cash in that instance.

Power and greed are human traits, so the rich won't be happy until they have everything. Remember when ITV Digital started throwing money around? Nearly bankrupted us that did.

Think on people.

When I wanted to take my lad to football when he was little, I took him to non-league games. Didn't stop him growing up as a Town fan. And he's big enough and ugly enough to tell me what he thinks now. So I don't hold with this argument that it's cheaper and the small crowds are less intimidating argument. If that's what you're concerned about get down to Clee, Louth or GY Boro.

Quoted from ginnywings

Why don't Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool eff off and start a European league, then we can let 5 more teams into the league structure from below. They can please themselves what they do with their boatloads of cash in that instance.

I think that will happen before any B teams are allowed in the league.

The PL won't just let them intercourse off though, so who knows how long it would take. Also, hasn't the whole European Super League thing been mooted for about a quarter of a century now? The B teams are being trialled right now so I'd say there's a bigger chance of that being allowed to happen.

Quoted from Abdul19

The PL won't just let them intercourse off though, so who knows how long it would take. Also, hasn't the whole European Super League thing been mooted for about a quarter of a century now? The B teams are being trialled right now so I'd say there's a bigger chance of that being allowed to happen.

Spanish teams are about to play one fixture a season in the USA, and will compensate fans for travel and accommodation. It's all about TV money now and with the vast increases given to teams lately, I think it's inevitable that they will do whatever the TV companies want them to do. I think a European Super League is getting closer, because it's a big money spinner. A handful of teams are monopolising each nation, so they will go their own way eventually i feel.

Cut down on foreign players in these top teams then home grown youngsters would get the experience they need. There also used to be "reserve leagues"- where have they gone ?

As soon as the MSL develops into a league that can provide teams that can compete with the European teams there will be a world league . The potential for advertising with them involved would be huge and by then travel around the world will be a matter of hours .

Quoted from ginnywings

It's all about TV money now and with the vast increases given to teams lately, I think it's inevitable that they will do whatever the TV companies want them to do. I think a European Super League is getting closer, because it's a big money spinner.

That's why I don't see it happening any time soon. The top 4 get 2 huge amounts of tv/prize money. A Euro League would have to go some* to offer more than the PL/CL combo.

* maybe it will, let's face it, what do I know

Quoted from blundellpork

There should be a cap on the number of young players that each academy can take

Best idea in this large thread.

Stop the stockpiling of players in Elite Academies, then youngsters who've shown promise at an early age will get a true chance for development at smaller clubs.  

If we're really, really serious about developing youngsters then you need to impose strict limits on the loan system too.  Even at Town we've addressed a potential gap in midfield by loaning a young lad from Sunderland.  We've got enough players in midfield but with the window shutting we've gone for someone just to ensure we don't get caught short with injuries until January.  Embleton may well be better than anything we've got in the building and especially at youth level, but if you remove that safety net clubs will have to rely on their own youth talent - which should bring extra emphasis on youth coaching to ensure enough good players are coming through.

It would be a major change but I'd love to see clubs restricted to something like 18 senior professionals on their books, 1 loan a season and then having to make up any gaps with their own youth players.

Problem is, all these ideas will never happen because it would require the Premier League to sign up to them and it serves absolutely none of their objectives.

Quoted from grimsby pete

How about this for a solution ?

If the prem want to play their young players against men let them play in the national league,

There could be 12 B teams and 12 other clubs,

The B teams are not allowed to be promoted,

This makes it a lot easier tor proper clubs playing in that league to get promoted back into the league,

So you still have one team promoted and another 6 in the play offs,

.

Are you for real? There’s plenty of good enough teams in the National League and below that are worthy of a chance to play in that league to enable possible promotion to the football league without the fooking hinderance of illegitimate B teams.

Sometimes I despair at your posts Pete, and this one just takes the bloody urine. Give your head a shake man.

Quoted from AndyDarloFC

Are you for real? There’s plenty of good enough teams in the National League and below that are worthy of a chance to play in that league to enable possible promotion to the football league without the fooking hinderance of illegitimate B teams.

Sometimes I despair at your posts Pete, and this one just takes the bloody urine. Give your head a shake man.

It was only a thought and it certainly open a debate,

BUT

If Darlo got back into the national league prem think how much easier it would be to get back into the football league if 12 teams were not allowed promotion.

Whatever the football league decide to do it will not please 90+% of the us fans .

Move the Lincolnshire Cup to midweek and make it an all-play-all league and don't bother with the EFL Trophy.

e,g, Scunny/Grimsby/Lincoln/Boston 3 games each. Group winner gets the trophy.

I have no issue with the competition in theory. How often are lower leagues teams going to get a chance to play at Wembley? It might not be as ‘special’ for us as it once was as we have been lucky enough to go several times, but for others it would be something that they may only get to see as a fan of another club once in their lifetime. I for one would not want to deny anyone that opportunity. I still get goosebumps thinking about those trips to see Bournemouth, Northampton and Forest Green and the memories will stay with me for as long as I have breath in my body or my pickled brain will allow me to do so.

So do I think the competition should be scrapped? No. I think it should be made more regionalised as late into the competition as possible, but the B teams or academy teams have no place in this competition full stop imo.

UTFM

Quoted from grimsby pete

If Darlo got back into the national league prem think how much easier it would be to get back into the football league if 12 teams were not allowed promotion.

I wouldn’t want my team to be playing in a league where there would be 24 meaningless games per season.
I’d rather we competed in a league with proper teams and proper fans, instead of travelling to Man Utd’s training ground to watch us face their academy for a competitive game.

Quoted from AndyDarloFC

I wouldn’t my team to be playing in a league where there would be 24 meaningless games per season.
I’d rather we competed in a league with proper teams and proper fans, instead of travelling to Man Utd’s training ground to watch us face their academy for a competitive game.

They would not be meaningless for you Andy you will get ( hopefully) points that will get you in the play offs,

BUT

It will not happen and I admit it was a stupid idea,

I have given my head a wobble.

B Teams in the EFL will never happen because you will never get the required number of clubs to allow it.

Quoted from rancido

B Teams in the EFL will never happen because you will never get the required number of clubs to allow it.

Unfortunately imho that is an idealistic scenario. The checkatwat trophy has the B/Academy teams in it because of the finances offered to let them play.

So what if a large amount of money is shoved under the noses of all the chairmen of the football league clubs. Bottom line is the premier league is a bottomless cash pit so they can pay as much as they need. The higher the offer, the less clubs will say no. I am not sure how many clubs are fan owned, like Exeter, but if it comes down to accepting an amount of money that the chairman will see as something they can’t refuse then I am not as convinced as you that it wouldn’t get through.

I believe at the moment it would take 8 clubs to say no, but who would trust that slime ball Harvey not to try and get this number reduced going forward. Again, it doesn’t mean it will happen overnight but does anyone trust Harvey to not try and get this through at some point when he is clearly doing it for his own gain.

I hope I am wrong and this all goes away. There is nothing wrong with status quo in my opinion (although some of the songs are a little repetitive 😉)

UTFM

Quoted from rancido

B Teams in the EFL will never happen because you will never get the required number of clubs to allow it.

Touching naivety Rancido.

Our club voted for the checkatrade twice despite opposition from the key stakeholders. Shows the ruling regime is capable of anything. The first time it came to the vote Fenty voted yes despite the proposal only being  just tabled at the meeting with no time for due consideration - at least that's what he told us. He should have simply said 'no' until he had time to consult the whole club board which included the Trust reps, but he didn't. That would be normal practice in any large organisation ('don't bounce me into a decision' was the principle with  out company directors I've ever dealt with).

He did it again the following year despite widespread vocal opposition and a frigging alternative fans game being set up on the same night of the Donny game.

'The League makes up the missing money' he told us at the Fans' Forum last year. Money that all clubs get so we're all back to square on on that.

So I've absolutely no confidence in our clubs board to get anything to do with B teams right. They don't even have the intelligence to vote against it, get fans on board AND take still the money because the majority voted for! Muppets!