WHY GTFC IS IN DEBT

The Grimsby Town Football Club Plc is issuing this brief statement to complement the publication of the financial statements for the year ended 31st May 2017.

The Club continues to invest prudently in the first team and management staff in order to play at the highest level possible and progress plans for relocation to the new community stadium.

An operating surplus for the year has enabled a further reduction of the Club’s historic external debt that arose before the collapse of the ITV Digital.

Specifically, a £300K repayment to the Bank eliminating the company’s bank loan.

Comparing debt of 15 years ago. The Club had historic debts of circa £2 million which threatened the Clubs existence. This was owed to the HMRC, the Bank and past directors. A sum that in today’s value would be well in excess of £3 million.

Cumulative trading losses over the same period in time have in the main been financed by an increase in the issued share capital.

Currently the Clubs total indebtedness is significantly less than £2 million, demonstrating the prudent management of the Clubs financial affairs.

This sum, should not be confused with the accumulated tax losses of £5.3million disclosed in the accounts.

Often onlookers have confused this sum of £5.3million, to be the Clubs indebtedness, which it is not.

These tax losses have been accumulated over 30 years, and include tax allowances for capital expenditure, such as, converting Blundell Park to an all seater stadium, and the construction of the Findus stand, and income that is not subject to tax.

They remain in the accounts and available to offset against future profits.

Additionally, the Club has invested substantially in the infrastructure for the Youth Academy and training facilities, in the form of changing rooms, technical equipment, staffing levels and the overall facilities.

https://www.grimsby-townfc.co.uk/news/2017/november/club-statement---2017-accounts/

However the statement is dressed up with self-congratulatory praise, without Mike Parker and the Trust's investment the club would be now be in debt to the tune of over £3m not just the nearly £2m as it is now and the £2m as it was then 15 years ago and that's after the Bogle sale. The debt has just shifted over to JF after all this time and would be worse without the generosity of others.

As a fan, I hate reading these over egged claims which are written as though you're too thick to see through to the actual truth which is far different from the tone of the statement..

Quoted from Bigdog

However the statement is dressed up with self-congratulatory praise, without Mike Parker and the Trust's investment the club would be now be in debt to the tune of over £3m not just the nearly £2m as it is now and the £2m as it was then 15 years ago and that's after the Bogle sale. The debt has just shifted over to JF after all this time and would be worse without the generosity of others.

As a fan, I hate reading these over egged claims which are written as though you're too thick to see through to the actual truth which is far different from the tone of the statement..

But this statement was made in November - pre the collapse in form and even the Fans Forum. I doubt we will ever be told how much the board were cacking theirselves about the prospect of relegation and ever seeing the debt reduce.

Quote “Currently the Clubs total indebtedness is significantly less than £2 million, demonstrating the prudent management of the Clubs financial affairs.”

So, John Fenty’s ‘benign loans’ are ‘significantly less than £2 million’???

Quoted from nomorefourfiveone

Quote “Currently the Clubs total indebtedness is significantly less than £2 million, demonstrating the prudent management of the Clubs financial affairs.”

So, John Fenty’s ‘benign loans’ are ‘significantly less than £2 million’???

They take into account the value of BP on the balance sheet so it deducts from JF's £2m..

Quoted from Cambs Mariner

Forgive me if I have got this wrong Bigdog but what you are saying is that basically all the debts are now the monies that John Fenty has loaned to GTFC. Sounds like some very clever accountancy to me.

Always is....didn't Man Utd have a very healthy bank balance  one day and following their last takeover instantly become a highly in debt club.

Ah, forgive my accounting ignorance - so ‘significantly less’ is about a quid then?

Out of interest, how much is that ‘asset’ on the books for?

Quoted from nomorefourfiveone

Ah, forgive my accounting ignorance - so ‘significantly less’ is about a quid then?

Out of interest, how much is that ‘asset’ on the books for?

From memory around £650k

Depreciating rapidly over the past few years..

One the one hand, the board haven't done too badly by roughly balancing the books, on the flip side, we had to get relegated, struggle in League Two or drop into non league while they've done so. I'm not advocating the club going further into debt but surely a club of our size shouldn't have gone through so many poor seasons on the trot with the size of our income..

Quoted from moosey_club

Always is....didn't Man Utd have a very healthy bank balance  one day and following their last takeover instantly become a highly in debt club.

Yes. I think the Glazers somehow mortgaged the club to buy it for themselves. May have been some intermediate steps.

So, however you cut it (and I bow to your accounting jiggery pokery) if the club has debts of ‘considerably less than £2 million’ and Blundell Park is valued at £650k, of which, John Fenty being the ‘major shareholder’ - and therefore having a ‘major’ holding in the value of that asset.... the word ‘significantly’ should probably come under some scrutiny?

Quoted from Bigdog

From memory around £650k

Depreciating rapidly over the past few years..

One the one hand, the board haven't done too badly by roughly balancing the books, on the flip side, we had to get relegated, struggle in League Two or drop into non league while they've done so. I'm not advocating the club going further into debt but surely a club of our size shouldn't have gone through so many poor seasons on the trot with the size of our income..

That's how i see it. I've said before that the board have done a decent job financially, and there are a lot more clubs in a bigger financial mess than we are, but to counter that, the football, the bit that matters the most has been mostly mediocre to shocking over a long period. The support has never truly been tapped into, because the fare on the pitch has been mostly dire and the board and fans seem to be forever at loggerheads. For me, everything is overshadowed by our playing record over the last 15 years. It is abysmal.

Quoted from moosey_club

Always is....didn't Man Utd have a very healthy bank balance  one day and following their last takeover instantly become a highly in debt club.

Here you go. From Wiki:

the Glazers took 98% ownership of the club via their Red Football parent company, forcing a squeeze out of the remaining 2%. The final purchase price of the club totalled almost £800 million.

"Most of the capital used by Glazer to purchase Manchester United came in the form of loans, the majority of which were secured against the club's assets, incurring interest payments of over £60 million per annum. The remainder came in the form of PIK loans (payment in kind loans), which were later sold to hedge funds. Manchester United was not liable for the PIKs, which were held by Red Football Joint Venture and were secured on that company's shares in Red Football (and thus the club). The interest on the PIKs rolled up at 14.25% per annum."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glazer_ownership_of_Manchester_United

So just suppose that eventually there is no "benign loan" owed to Mr Fenty and also no other outstanding depts, what is the actual value of the club. Is this calculated at the share price of the day so, if we are still division 2 they are obviously not worth the same as if we were in the premier. Or is the value calculated some other way?

Quoted from Gaffer58

So just suppose that eventually there is no "benign loan" owed to Mr Fenty and also no other outstanding depts, what is the actual value of the club. Is this calculated at the share price of the day so, if we are still division 2 they are obviously not worth the same as if we were in the premier. Or is the value calculated some other way?

If there were no debt then the value of the club is whatever it costs to buy a controlling interest. At present JF's 43% is considered 'control' and the cost of those shares is circa £900k.

I doubt there is a premium to be  paid over and above  the cost of each share.

IF John were to write off the benign loans I expect that if someone paid him the face value of the shares he would sell provided he felt you could take the club forward.

Seems strange that he wants to sell to someone who could invest more to take the club forward yet is not willing to do so himself?  

Quoted from Cloudy

If there were no debt then the value of the club is whatever it costs to buy a controlling interest. At present JF's 43% is considered 'control' and the cost of those shares is circa £900k.

I doubt there is a premium to be  paid over and above  the cost of each share.

IF John were to write off the benign loans I expect that if someone paid him the face value of the shares he would sell provided he felt you could take the club forward.

Seems strange that he wants to sell to someone who could invest more to take the club forward yet is not willing to do so himself?

I think he's just had enough.

Quoted from rancido

I think he's just had enough.

I hope you are right!

So what is this £5.3m tax debt that we don't owe?

Quoted from The_Laughing_Mariner

So what is this £5.3m tax debt that we don't owe?

This isn't actually a tax debt. It is more like a tax credit based on historical losses. We can make profits and reduce the tax bill on these profits because we've made losses in the past.

I'm no expert but I think when we beat Liverpool, Chelsea, Manchesters City and United in the FA Cup next season before losing to Wycombe in the final and make a £5.3Million profit, we won't have to pay tax on it.

The question is even if the club were in a position to pay off JF's "benign loans" (e.g a huge cup run over a couple of years or a series of player sales + sell ons at massive profit) would JF let them be paid off or would he prefer to keep the stranglehold on the club?

So the Tax Man owes us £5.3m, why don't we claim it?

Quoted from The_Laughing_Mariner

So the Tax Man owes us £5.3m, why don't we claim it?

Oh good! I'm glad it's not just me...

And you're Trust treasurer!  

BTW have you seen the Clee Grammar transformation on the Telegraph website?

Quoted from Mariner_09

The question is even if the club were in a position to pay off JF's "benign loans" (e.g a huge cup run over a couple of years or a series of player sales + sell ons at massive profit) would JF let them be paid off or would he prefer to keep the stranglehold on the club?

If we paid off those loans he would still have a stranglehold on the club because he would still be the non chairman majority share holder. His shares would most likely be worth more as the club would have no debt. So what's the point. Might as well stay as we are.

Is the ground not mortgaged or was it included in the bank debt?

Quoted from mirrorballman

This isn't actually a tax debt. It is more like a tax credit based on historical losses. We can make profits and reduce the tax bill on these profits because we've made losses in the past.

I'm no expert but I think when we beat Liverpool, Chelsea, Manchesters City and United in the FA Cup next season before losing to Wycombe in the final and make a £5.3Million profit, we won't have to pay tax on it.

You’re being a bit fanciful there - no way would we lose to Wycombe. In fact I don’t think they’ll even make the final.

Quoted from golfer

If we paid off those loans he would still have a stranglehold on the club because he would still be the non chairman majority share holder. His shares would most likely be worth more as the club would have no debt. So what's the point. Might as well stay as we are.

Never quite sure if you're being serious or just got a very dry wit.

In case you're being serious, if JF owns 43% of the shares, and there was no longer any debt, he would not have a controlling interest as 43% is less than 51%.

Quoted from rancido

I think he's just had enough.

So we agree with him on something then.

Quoted from The_Laughing_Mariner

So the Tax Man owes us £5.3m, why don't we claim it?

Tax man owes us nothing.

£5.3 million is the amount of accumulated tax losses brought forward from previous years. A company can offset those losses against future profits to reduce the future tax bill.

So if we sell Kelly and Dixon to Slade's next club resulting in a £6million profit for the year, we would only pay tax on the £700k difference between that and the brought forward losses.

I think I get it,


No I don't ???

Are we ever going to stop mentioning ITV bloody Digital?

Quoted from Vance Warner

Are we ever going to stop mentioning ITV bloody Digital?

Well the First World War was 100 years ago, it's still being talked about and the repercussions it led to.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Never quite sure if you're being serious or just got a very dry wit.

In case you're being serious, if JF owns 43% of the shares, and there was no longer any debt, he would not have a controlling interest as 43% is less than 51%.

He's the majority shareholder and is deemed in control of the club. He current loans are not a financial commitment to the club, his financial commitment is described on page 21, note 11.

Go to the very last page for details on the controlling party.  https://beta.companieshouse.go.....t=pdf&download=0

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

He's the majority shareholder and is deemed in control of the club. He current loans are not a financial commitment to the club, his financial commitment is described on page 21, note 11.

Go to the very last page for details on the controlling party.  https://beta.companieshouse.go.....t=pdf&download=0

Good point. I was always told that you need to look at high levels of debt and who it's owed to, to see who really controls the company. Often it's banks. In this case it's JSF. And in effect his financial commitment, or guarantee to provide loans of up to £325,000 would be a loan.