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Grim74
March 14, 2018, 3:17pm
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Anybody else agree with Corbyn? I think he has a point there's still no actual proof that i'm aware of that the hit was carried out by the Kremlin.


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grimsby pete
March 14, 2018, 6:59pm

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The theory is the nerve agent was made in Russia so if they were not directly involved they did not keep a tight security on it,

So either they were involved or they allowed a 3rd party to tale some out of the country .

It could only have come from one place in Russia.

So they say.


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barralad
March 14, 2018, 7:05pm
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Something about all this doesn't add up. Why would the Russians choose a method of execution that draws such attention?


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grimsby pete
March 14, 2018, 7:10pm

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Quoted from barralad
Something about all this doesn't add up. Why would the Russians choose a method of execution that draws such attention?


I agree so it looks like they sold some to a 3rd party or some was stolen from them


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grimsby pete
March 14, 2018, 7:12pm

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Another related to this,

A man spoke to the TV reporter and said he was in the area at the time,

He was told to use a baby wipe on his phone in case there was any traces of it on his person,

He said , " a baby wipe it's a bloody nerve agent " !!!!!!!!!!!!!  


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Grim74
March 14, 2018, 7:48pm
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Quoted from barralad
Something about all this doesn't add up. Why would the Russians choose a method of execution that draws such attention?


That's what I'm thinking,  he lived alone with no security, it wouldn't of taken much to assassinate him at home and make it look like an accident.

Why would they want to make it so obvious it was them it just doesn't make sense, unless it is a rogue 3rd party trying to stitch Putin up he does have a lot of enemy's.


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codcheeky
March 14, 2018, 9:51pm
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Something is very wrong with this and Corbyn seems to be one of the few asking for a more measured and sensible route.  The Labour right who were so sure that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that could reach us in 45 minutes are shouting against Corbyn yet again. That war has lasted 18 years and counting. The Tories quite happy to rush in and bomb Syria and Libya and look how we'll that's turning out. Would the intelligence industry lie to us again.
The tories have got £800,000 in donations from Putins mates, what are they paying for?
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Maringer
March 14, 2018, 10:15pm
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It's one of those things which will never be proven until whoever actually did it admits it. And that will probably never happen.

The Litvinenko assassination last decade was undoubtedly the Russians because you need a specialised reactor to produce the polonium. These nerve agents, however, can be produced by anyone with the right sort of lab and right sort of knowledge. I don't doubt we could have produced it ourselves - or the French, Yanks, Chinese and several others. But why?

I'd say it was most probably the Russians. I've seen comment that it might be to whip up more Russian nationalism before the elections to help Putin, but he's surely got the election sown up already? Seems very odd to me, but then a lot of what the Russians do is confusing as they really don't seem to think like us.

Probably not the best choice for Corbyn to stick to his guns and point out the obvious regardless of the pile-on from the Tories and their media which will ensure. That said, I bet the Tories are probably pissing themselves laughing at how many of the Blairites have taken the slightest opportunity to put the boot in on Corbyn. If the roles were reversed, the Tories would toe the line because they know all about putting party first.
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KingstonMariner
March 15, 2018, 12:35am
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Bit premature to be booting Russian spies, sorry diplomats, out of the country. I'd expect more proof. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the Russkies, but you need proof for this sort of thing as the consequences of an escalation are pretty serious.

If it's not officially sanctioned, it might have been a case of 'who would rid me of this troublesome priest' like Henry II and Thomas a Becket. There probably won't be any tears shed, and maybe even a few smirks and quiet chuckles at the daily gathering round the samovar at Vlad Towers.


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Grim74
March 15, 2018, 8:40am
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Heard a good point made today from a commentator on RT news who mentioned that the nerve agent in question used in Salisbury was developed in the 1980's by Soviet Russia. But then look at what happened last year when Kim Wong-un was accused of having his half brother assassinated at Kuala Lumpur airport, he was murdered with a chemical nerve agent VX which was developed by the British in the 1950s! So by Theresa's May logic should we of been suspects?


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Maringer
March 15, 2018, 12:23pm
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Hmmm. I know Craig Murray (former UK Ambassador) is a bit erratic in some respects. Despite his knowledge of diplomacy and the workings of the British government, he's fallen out big time with the establishment to the degree that he comes across as a bit of a left-wing conspiracy theorist on occasions, but it is interesting to read his take on this Salisbury attack:

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/

This assumes, of course, that the facts included in this post about what is and isn't known about the 'Novichok' stuff is accurate. You'd think it would be relatively easy to ascertain if this is the case or not, providing the RSC journal and OPCW report are available somewhere. Murray has certainly had sources supply him with interesting information in the past which isn't surprising given his railing against the claims of the government/establishment/etc.

Certainly enough information to throw some doubt on the current narrative rather than rushing to immediate conclusions.
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Town Monkey
March 15, 2018, 12:58pm
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Whilst I have no access to any more proof than anyone else, I think it's very likely that this was a hit sanctioned by the Russian government.  On the question of why they would do it, I think there are a few plausible explanations.  It sends a message that they can and will target Russian dissenters overseas. They know that ultimately we won't do much to them, other than send home a few FSB agents who will soon be replaced by others.  A few countries will condemn them and then do nothing about it.  

Definitive proof will never be in the public domain, so there will always be doubts, and Russia's troll army will keep stoking the fires of misinformation.  What I do find interesting about this is that a lot of the far left and right commentators I've seen, seem to agree with the Russian narrative and support Putin, whereas almost everyone in the centre seems to be of the opinion that this is almost certainly or very likely to be a state sponsored hit.  

  
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Maringer
March 15, 2018, 1:38pm
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The odd thing with this is the fact that Skripal was imprisoned in Russia for treason and you'd have expected them to get rid of him over there if they wanted to. Makes you wonder if there is a faction of the Russian government which has decided to 'get rid' of a load of their ex-pats in revenge/as a warning to others, though this would go against the narrative that nothing happens within Russian without Putin's say so. Unless he did say so, of course!

Just heard an interesting interview on Radio 4 with one of the chaps who helped set up the OPCW and his complaint was that these claims were made public so soon. He noted that any country with a chemical weapons lab could have produced the stuff if they had the necessary formula/specifications etc, though it was most likely to have originated in Russia.

I've read elsewhere that the Russian scientist who has talked about this Novichek stuff actually released the formulae for some of them in some scientific papers so I suppose that might explain how the substance (which nobody in the West has theoretically seen before, don't forget) was identified as such. I still think that the speed of the accusation against Russia may well be politically motivated, however.
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KingstonMariner
March 15, 2018, 6:49pm
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It's all getting a bit too close for home for my liking. The last Russian emigre/Putin critic/'convicted fraudster*' to die lived and died in a house 250 yards as the crow Novichek flies from where I'm sitting.

* if he was a fraudster he was not very successful at getting his ill-gotten gains out (house maybe worth £500k at current prices). Bearing in mind he was deputy director of Aeroflot.


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grimsby pete
March 16, 2018, 12:46pm

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A good response to a British reporter in Moscow when asked what he thought,

Don't sell state secrets and you will live longer,

Can't argue with that.


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KingstonMariner
March 16, 2018, 1:43pm
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Agree Pete. Whilst I certainly don’t condone extra judicial killings, he was hardly a hero. He didn’t have the excuse that he was doing it because he had a fundamental ideological problem with the ruling regime (like he might have had in the USSR) since the US and Russia were both essentially of the same type of polity at the time he did his spying against his homeland.


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Maringer
March 16, 2018, 4:43pm
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Quoted from KingstonMariner
It's all getting a bit too close for home for my liking. The last Russian emigre/Putin critic/'convicted fraudster*' to die lived and died in a house 250 yards as the crow Novichek flies from where I'm sitting.


BBC reporting he apparently died of 'compression of the neck'. You've not been sleepwalking out the house and having disturbing dreams about Slade, have you?
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KingstonMariner
March 16, 2018, 8:51pm
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Quoted from Maringer


BBC reporting he apparently died of 'compression of the neck'. You've not been sleepwalking out the house and having disturbing dreams about Slade, have you?


Wasn't me guv. I was 1500 miles away when he died. Well when he was found anyway.


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codcheeky
March 18, 2018, 1:57pm
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Our foreign secretary has accepted £160, 000 in donations to play tennis with the wife of a former minister of Putins government, our defence secretary also has accepted £30,000 in donations to have dinner with the wife of an ex minister in Putins government.
The Tories see nothing wrong in this and will refuse to pay it back. What are they getting for this money? Surely not freedom to launder their dodgy money?
Can anyone on here possibly imagine what the Daily Mail or the BBC or for that matter any of the Main Stream Media would say if this was Jeremy Corbyn?
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KingstonMariner
March 18, 2018, 2:02pm
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Quoted from codcheeky
Our foreign secretary has accepted £160, 000 in donations to play tennis with the wife of a former minister of Putins government, our defence secretary also has accepted £30,000 in donations to have dinner with the wife of an ex minister in Putins government.
The Tories see nothing wrong in this and will refuse to pay it back. What are they getting for this money? Surely not freedom to launder their dodgy money?
Can anyone on here possibly imagine what the Daily Mail or the BBC or for that matter any of the Main Stream Media would say if this was Jeremy Corbyn?


Aye, it's almost as though the whole Skripal incident has been concocted to isolate Corbyn and revive the split in Labour.


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Grim74
March 18, 2018, 9:52pm
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Quoted from codcheeky
Our foreign secretary has accepted £160, 000 in donations to play tennis with the wife of a former minister of Putins government, our defence secretary also has accepted £30,000 in donations to have dinner with the wife of an ex minister in Putins government.
The Tories see nothing wrong in this and will refuse to pay it back. What are they getting for this money? Surely not freedom to launder their dodgy money?
Can anyone on here possibly imagine what the Daily Mail or the BBC or for that matter any of the Main Stream Media would say if this was Jeremy Corbyn?


He seemed to come out unscathed after it was reported he had taken donations from a pro Hamas group!


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GrimRob
March 18, 2018, 11:04pm

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Why go to such lengths to kill someone with such a signatured murder weapon? What's wrong with the good old fashioned hitman?


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KingstonMariner
March 18, 2018, 11:35pm
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Quoted from GrimRob
Why go to such lengths to kill someone with such a signatured murder weapon? What's wrong with the good old fashioned hitman?


Because it acts as a force multiplier by sending a message to any other Russian exiles. 'Watch it or you're next'. I think this is why that Roman wotsit bloke agreed to be governor of that Siberian province and to make suitable contributions to the community's well-being.

I'm not saying the Russians did do it mind. Not until it's been proved properly. But just because it looks obvious that it was the Russian government behind it, it doesn't mean to say it isn't.


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Grim74
March 19, 2018, 11:21am
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So it goes on the only news in town, virtually nothing on the Muslim rape gangs, nothing on the free speech  demo attacked  by muslims, I just can't fathom out the connection 🙄.


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codcheeky
April 3, 2018, 4:33pm
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It now seems that Porton Down scientists can't prove that the nerve agent came from Russia,  We have rushed in here under May and Johnson stand to make us a laughing stock
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Maringer
April 3, 2018, 10:45pm
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So, who is telling the truth? The CEO of Porton Down who says they don't know where the 'novichok' stuff was manufactured or the Foreign Secretary who claimed in an interview the other week that Porton Down had confirmed without doubt that this nerve agent was produced by Russia?

My money would be on the serial liar, Johnson. Will anybody in the media ask him who was telling the truth, I wonder?
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LH
April 3, 2018, 10:50pm

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The leftie BBC news at ten covered this story tonight. Obviously after the London is a murderous excrement hole because of Sadiq Khan and Jeremy Corbyn dines with jews but not the right jews so he’s a massive anti-semite stories. I’m guessing the government need a bit more head scratching time?
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codcheeky
April 4, 2018, 1:14am
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The BBC Corbyn story is like some sort of satire or a scene from The life of Brian, He's met the wrong Jews? The Jews complaining about this refused to meet him, the whole anti Corbyn thing is becoming ridiculous. Desperation is settling in because the Tories are in for a bit of a kicking in the May elections.
I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Russia thing was part of it too, at the moment Corbyn who advised waiting for the full evidence appears to be the only sane voice in Parliament. Maringer on a post on this thread was questioning his wisdom of his not running with the pack and it's effect on his popularity.  Well Corbyn will do what he thinks is right and not what he thinks will win him short term popularity and as with the Gulf war and Syria and PFIs he will be proved right on this as well, the Labour MPs who jumped up to support May and Johnson have made themselves a laughing stock
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Grim74
April 4, 2018, 2:52pm
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This story never added up from day one for me I'm not ruling out a Russian element is involved but I find it hard to believe under Putin's orders. And now it's confirmed we don't actually no the source well done May and Johnson you absolute bafoons! Seem once again Mr Galloway is on the money our Country is looking even more of an incompetent laughing stock. As for Comrade Corbyrn although I agreed with his stance it doesn't make him some kind of superior leader in waiting, it's no surprise he went against his Country the traitor has always taken the side of the UK's enemy's.
The question now is if it's not the Russians who would stand to gain from this? Let the conspiracy's begin!


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KingstonMariner
April 4, 2018, 8:12pm
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Apart from the risk to peace (and life and limb for those Brits encountering Russian thugs in the Summer) it's a flipping national embarrassment.

In the old days, toffs like Johnson would have had the decency to blow their brains out for the embarrassment they'd caused to Queen and Country. Same old Etonians in power as they were 120 years ago. At least they had some honour in those days.


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Maringer
April 4, 2018, 10:46pm
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Ignoring the usual rubbish about Corbyn and his imagined motives, it's a good question to ask who would benefit from this act.

Most probable is obviously the Russian government. Main motive here would have been to stir up nationalistic sentiment to ensure Putin achieved an even more comprehensive victory in their presidential elections (though he was a shoo-in to win regardless). Also would serve as a warning to those thinking of selling secrets as well as a big feck you to the west - many countries aligned with NATO are reliant on Russian gas and oil so, but for posturing, nothing they could really do. Another possibility would be a faction of the Russian state organising it even if the orders didn't come from on high. This is less likely for me as, though the oligarchy running the country pretty much consists of a bunch of corrupt crooks, I think they probably have control of most things going on there. You'd have to have pretty big balls to risk pissing off Putin's regime.

So who else could it be? Well, pretty much anybody with the resources to develop a chemical weapons programme. The Russian scientist who worked on developing these so-called novichok substances published a widely-available book discussing the stuff and naming some of their components. It's assumed that Russia created them successfully but the only country it has been reported has actually made the stuff (as an experiment under the supervision of the OPCW) is Iran. I don't really see what they would gain from it, though they obviously aren't fans of the UK for past misdemeanours. They are in coalition with the Russians so can't see why they would want to set them up.

Other alternatives are a false flag attack perpetrated by the UK itself to set up the Russians. Nobody to be hurt but for a useless former Russian spy, good for some sabre rattling before local elections to whip up some patriotism (which helps incumbent governments) and possibly agreed with the Trump administration to help set up the Russians. Seems unlikely to me, not least due to the proximity to Porton Down - I don't think our spooks are stupid enough to stage a chemical attack a stone's throw from there!

Who else? Can't see the French doing it as they are already too busy laughing at the UK. India? Why would they? Pakistan? Ditto. China? They are too busy taking our money to want to upset the apple cart, even given Trump's nascent trade war.

Of them all, I suppose Israel might have an interest as they are no fans of the Russians due to their coalition with Iran and actions in Syria. Doesn't seem likely to me, however, as they know the Yanks have got their back regardless already. I can't see how they would particularly benefit from Cold War Mk. II.

As I've said before, we'll never know for certain.
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codcheeky
April 5, 2018, 8:27am
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The Foreign Secretary has been caught lying on camera and the Foreign Office are deleting tweets, The story has mysteriously disappeared from the BBC and MEN websites. Something is seriously wrong with this story, We are supposedly dealing with a toxic nerve agent, apparently a paramedic have mouth to mouth resuscitation for 10 mins and was not in the least affected but a CID detective who would not be a first responder was . Should we blindly believe that the Government tell us? This smacks of WMDs again
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Maringer
April 5, 2018, 8:00pm
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Yeah, that's one thing which seems strange. If it's a military grade nerve agent, why is Skripal's daughter apparently recovering in hospital and now reportedly telling her cousin that her Dad will be fine? These substances are so horribly lethal that any exposure to even a tiny amount would be enough to kill him. It's just not a very coherent story at the moment.

Actually, I've just had a thought. How about this for a scenario? Skripal and daughter poisoned by the Russians (whether the government or a faction) using some sort of a non-lethal toxin then a leak of false 'intelligence' tells the west it was a Russian novichok nerve agent. May & Co are such a bunch of incompetent nitwits that they immediately jump on this and go into full 'blame Russia for WMD attack' despite a lack of evidence.

Who wins? The Russians make the west look very foolish indeed when it is eventually revealed they were poisoned by something more mundane and Putin gets an even bigger bounce.

This scenario would rely on the UK government being utterly incompetent and incapable of dealing with sticky diplomatic situations sensibly. When you consider the clownshoes we're left with in the cabinet at present, it wouldn't be much of a gamble to assume they would make a balls up of it all.
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KingstonMariner
April 5, 2018, 8:04pm
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I think you've nailed it Maringer.


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Grim74
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How about May and her EU master hatch a plan that with enough anti Russian propaganda will see the British people support an EU army, we get a watered down Brexit and they get their dirty hands on our Military.


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Maringer
April 5, 2018, 10:56pm
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Bingo! Bonkers Brexiteer bullshite bingo, that is.
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Grim74
April 6, 2018, 1:41pm
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Quoted from Maringer
Bingo! Bonkers Brexiteer bullshite bingo, that is.


This from the man (take it your a man) who said the EU army was just a right wing scaremongering  😂


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Maringer
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The word we're looking for here is, "Veto". If we didn't want an EU army, we could just have vetoed it, as could any other member of the EU. Can't now, of course.

I still say I'm not sure what all the fuss about it is. Even if there was an EU army, how would this mean the EU "getting its hands on our military"? What does that even mean?

I'd guess you must be extremely anti-NATO as well if you don't like the idea of foreign generals ordering our troops around.
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Grim74
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Quoted from Maringer
The word we're looking for here is, "Veto". If we didn't want an EU army, we could just have vetoed it, as could any other member of the EU. Can't now, of course.

I still say I'm not sure what all the fuss about it is. Even if there was an EU army, how would this mean the EU "getting its hands on our military"? What does that even mean?

I'd guess you must be extremely anti-NATO as well if you don't like the idea of foreign generals ordering our troops around.


What you going of topic for I'm not after an EU army debate! I was just reiterating your statement from another time you was incorrect as the EU have confirmed an EU army will happen, it's ok to be wrong now and then  Maringer.


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KingstonMariner
April 7, 2018, 12:42am
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Quoted from Grim74


What you going of topic for I'm not after an EU army debate! I was just reiterating your statement from another time you was incorrect as the EU have confirmed an EU army will happen, it's ok to be wrong now and then  Maringer.


But you missed the point that there wouldn't be one if we vetoed it!


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Grim74
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


But you missed the point that there wouldn't be one if we vetoed it!


Your deluded if you really think that the undemocratic EU would of put a stop to there own ambitions just because we don't like it, even the new EU military HQ was being built despite any Veto, just shows the arrogance and contemp for their supposed EU partners thank intercourse we are leaving.


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codcheeky
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So we have a deadly nerve agent that apparently isn't deadly, one that can only be produced in Russia or a graduates chemistry lab depending on who you listen to.
It definitely came from Russia or may not have done.
We have a Foreign Secretary telling lies, the government deleting tweets,  pets that may or may not have had traces of evidence in their systems incinerated.
A police sergeant who seems to have been in two places at the same time and is suspiciously very silent
People being told to wipe their phone with baby wipes
A doctor giving Cpr and mouth to mouth not in the least affected
The leader of the opposition not being shown the evidence
A multi million pounds investment in Porton Down  
The cousin of the girl in hospital refused a visa to visit
Furniture vans outside embassies all over the place.
Plus apparently a Nerve gas attack exercise taking place nearby three weeks before this
We have a British spy continually referred to as a Russian Spy
A country with a record of Knocking off traitors and another wither a record of making up fake dossiers
A lack of any comments being allowed on this on many websites including the BBC, there is no wonder conspiracy theories are running rife, and we still have analysis of the poison to be comfirmed
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Grim74
April 7, 2018, 11:24am
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Quoted from codcheeky
So we have a deadly nerve agent that apparently isn't deadly, one that can only be produced in Russia or a graduates chemistry lab depending on who you listen to.
It definitely came from Russia or may not have done.
We have a Foreign Secretary telling lies, the government deleting tweets,  pets that may or may not have had traces of evidence in their systems incinerated.
A police sergeant who seems to have been in two places at the same time and is suspiciously very silent
People being told to wipe their phone with baby wipes
A doctor giving Cpr and mouth to mouth not in the least affected
The leader of the opposition not being shown the evidence
A multi million pounds investment in Porton Down  
The cousin of the girl in hospital refused a visa to visit
Furniture vans outside embassies all over the place.
Plus apparently a Nerve gas attack exercise taking place nearby three weeks before this
We have a British spy continually referred to as a Russian Spy
A country with a record of Knocking off traitors and another wither a record of making up fake dossiers
A lack of any comments being allowed on this on many websites including the BBC, there is no wonder conspiracy theories are running rife, and we still have analysis of the poison to be comfirmed


100%


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AdamHaddock
April 8, 2018, 5:32pm

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What's known in America as McCarthyism

Demonise Russia while the yanks (often with lapdog Britain) are bombing civilians all over the place


[img]https://images.app.goo.gl/bymuz36koLHofSn79[/img]
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April 9, 2018, 10:20am

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When you accidentally kick the seat in front of you on the rail replacement bus.

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grimsby pete
April 9, 2018, 10:33am

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Quoted from codcheeky
So we have a deadly nerve agent that apparently isn't deadly, one that can only be produced in Russia or a graduates chemistry lab depending on who you listen to.
It definitely came from Russia or may not have done.
We have a Foreign Secretary telling lies, the government deleting tweets,  pets that may or may not have had traces of evidence in their systems incinerated.
A police sergeant who seems to have been in two places at the same time and is suspiciously very silent
People being told to wipe their phone with baby wipes
A doctor giving Cpr and mouth to mouth not in the least affected
The leader of the opposition not being shown the evidence
A multi million pounds investment in Porton Down  
The cousin of the girl in hospital refused a visa to visit
Furniture vans outside embassies all over the place.
Plus apparently a Nerve gas attack exercise taking place nearby three weeks before this
We have a British spy continually referred to as a Russian Spy
A country with a record of Knocking off traitors and another wither a record of making up fake dossiers
A lack of any comments being allowed on this on many websites including the BBC, there is no wonder conspiracy theories are running rife, and we still have analysis of the poison to be comfirmed


Well it takes the day to day problems away from the masses .


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                             68 Years following the Town

                              Life member of Trust

                               First game   April 1955
                               
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codcheeky
April 10, 2018, 5:04pm
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We now have a suspected chemical attack in Syria, Corbyn again condemned for saying let's investigate this first. Blair has backed taken military action without asking parliament.
I had to smile at the comments in the Daily Mail website which changed almost instantly from calling for war and how Corbyn is a Russian to saying the opposite as soon as Blair opened his mouth.
May is now caught between the devil and the deep blue sea,  taking advice off Blair or taking Corbyns approach and we all know which  is the devil's option
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KingstonMariner
April 10, 2018, 5:40pm
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I'm sure I heard on Today yesterday that the area attacked was cut off by government and allied forces. Wonder how they got the evidence out.

I've been resisting the claims of a good friend who I suspected of being in the tinfoil hat brigade with respect to anything involving Russia and anything involving the West (New World Order and all that). But now......


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Maringer
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The world really is becoming a crazy place when half of the conspiracy theories begin to actually look more plausible than the official line. Yet again, another crazed rush towards military action without even the slightest interest in investigating what actually occurred. Even some Tories have pointed this out, I think? No surprise the Russians are calling for a UN-led investigation, no surprise that they won't get one.

The whole Syria thing is such a clusterfeck that we've barely idea of who is fighting who and who is bombing whichever side in the conflict. Every time a group of these rebels (many of whom are western-backed Islamist head-choppers, bizarrely enough!) are about to be crushed by the Russian-backed Syrians, we seem to get these reports of chemical weapon attacks on women and children accompanied by grainy video clips which could show the truth of appalling attacks or be completely faked/staged. I know that Assad and his goons are evil scumbags, but I can't imagine they are stupid enough to carry out such pointless attacks when good old fashioned munitions are doing the job for them in good order in any case?

Just what the heck is going on?
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KingstonMariner
April 10, 2018, 7:31pm
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Yeah, I can't believe there's any upside to Assad doing this unless it's to emphasis he's a bigger looney than the Islamist head choppers and heart eaters and thereby discouraging future rebellions.


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Grim74
April 11, 2018, 10:58am
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George Galloway hits the nail on the head -  "Syria and Russia deny there was any chemical weapons attack in Douma by anybody and guess what? There is absolutely zero evidence any chemical weapons attack took place."

But let's not let facts get in the way because Blair has spoken and he wants a war!


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KingstonMariner
April 11, 2018, 8:16pm
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Quoted from Grim74
George Galloway hits the nail on the head -  "Syria and Russia deny there was any chemical weapons attack in Douma by anybody and guess what? There is absolutely zero evidence any chemical weapons attack took place."

But let's not let facts get in the way because Blair has spoken and he wants a war!


Yes, and that well-known leftie liberal Donald Trump.


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Grim74
April 12, 2018, 11:01am
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Yes, and that well-known leftie liberal Donald Trump.


You talking about the same Donald Trump that the leftie liberals accused of being in collusion with Russia in there pathetic attempt to void the election?


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barralad
April 12, 2018, 11:16am
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Forget Bliar...we have a bunch of inbeciles running this country who cannot wait to rush into an armed conflict without any intention of consulting parliament and a distinct lack of any evidence. I hope those on the right who continue to (rightly) condemn Bliar over Iraq save some of the criticism for the woefully inadequate May and her stooge Boris the Bonkers.


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Grim74
April 12, 2018, 3:01pm
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Quoted from barralad
Forget Bliar...we have a bunch of inbeciles running this country who cannot wait to rush into an armed conflict without any intention of consulting parliament and a distinct lack of any evidence. I hope those on the right who continue to (rightly) condemn Bliar over Iraq save some of the criticism for the woefully inadequate May and her stooge Boris the Bonkers.


Absolutely! scarecrow May is trying to be a pound shop Margaret Thatcher but in reality she's no fit enough to hold her handbags never mind public office.


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KingstonMariner
April 12, 2018, 7:18pm
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Quoted from Grim74


You talking about the same Donald Trump that the leftie liberals accused of being in collusion with Russia in there pathetic attempt to void the election?


Yes. The same. Just because the Russians helped him into power (if that's true, and I can see why it was helpful to them) doesn't mean he won't flip flop around with lots of bluster. The guy's a prat and he's no leftie. My point still stands.

The danger of war isn't coming from lefties - Blair is a closet Conservative. The Lib Dems were more leftwing.


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Grim74
April 12, 2018, 9:51pm
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Yes. The same. Just because the Russians helped him into power (if that's true, and I can see why it was helpful to them) doesn't mean he won't flip flop around with lots of bluster. The guy's a prat and he's no leftie. My point still stands.

The danger of war isn't coming from lefties - Blair is a closet Conservative. The Lib Dems were more left wing.



Oh FFS don't try and take the moral high ground from a leftists point of view!!! Since the turn of the last century we have had many wars for various reasons.. economic gain, territorial gain, religion etc and there has been many millions killed, but the numbers killed in all these wars is dwarfed by the numbers murdered by left wing ideology.

It makes me wonder how we never forget the horrors of the Nazi's that are rightly condemned but why not those of socialism and communism? What goes untaught and is covered up is that socialist and communist ideas have produced the greatest evil in the history of mankind. If only our university's could teach the fact that you don't  have to be in favor of death camps or wars of economic and territorial gain to be a tyrant. The only requirement is that you have to believe in the primacy of the State over individual rights.


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barralad
April 13, 2018, 5:01pm
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Quoted from Grim74



Oh FFS don't try and take the moral high ground from a leftists point of view!!! Since the turn of the last century we have had many wars for various reasons.. economic gain, territorial gain, religion etc and there has been many millions killed, but the numbers killed in all these wars is dwarfed by the numbers murdered by left wing ideology.

It makes me wonder how we never forget the horrors of the Nazi's that are rightly condemned but why not those of socialism and communism? What goes untaught and is covered up is that socialist and communist ideas have produced the greatest evil in the history of mankind. If only our university's could teach the fact that you don't  have to be in favor of death camps or wars of economic and territorial gain to be a tyrant. The only requirement is that you have to believe in the primacy of the State over individual rights.


Numbers dwarfed by the numbers murdered by left wing ideology? Care to clarify firstly what you mean by dwarfed and secondly provide some figures to back it up?


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Grim74
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Quoted from barralad


Numbers dwarfed by the numbers murdered by left wing ideology? Care to clarify firstly what you mean by dwarfed and secondly provide some figures to back it up?


What's your problem? It's a sick amount of people killed by these Marxist nut jobs either way you look at the numbers between 1917 and 1987 Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin and their successors murdered and were otherwise responsible for the deaths of 62 million of their own people. That's more than the total amount killed throughout the whole of WW1! Between 1949 and 1987 China’s communists, led by Mao Zedong and his successors, murdered and were otherwise responsible for the deaths of 76 of million of there own people,  which eclipses the the total killed in WW2! Then we have places like North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, South America and Africa many with millions more probably not even accounted for.
This Karl  Marx fellow was one of the worst people to have ever been born far worse than Hitler Who was only responsible for about 50 million deaths approx.


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KingstonMariner
April 13, 2018, 8:26pm
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Universities do teach things about atrocities committed under the Soviet Union for example. I should know. I did history at uni and was taught about totalitarianism. Left and right. But that has nothing to do with the situation in Syria. We're not talking about which totalitarians killed more people. We're talking about which part of the political spectrum is encouraging war in the middle east.

You said it was liberal lefties like Blair to blame. I don't think Blair is a leftie. He did more for the richest than the poorest in society. The wealth gap grew larger under him than under any PM for generations. I was a Lib Dem supporter and I used to boast that my party's policies were far more left wing than Labour under Blair (mainly to urine off my Labour supporting friend, but actually true). The left wing Labourites epitomised by Corbyn are much anti-interventionist than the Tories and the right wing of the Labour party. The push for war isn't coming from the lefties. It's so frigging self-evident even an imbecile would understand. Why do you find that so difficult?

The US is not led by a leftie. It is a country that hasn't had a left winger elected to its legislature for generations. Britain is not led by a leftie. France is led by some sort of Blair tribute act - someone who is trying to modify and protect capitalism not bring about a workers paradise. The press and media are by and large right of centre.

As for blaming Karl Marx. You have really got no understanding have you. Show me the parts of his writings where he urges any atrocity or extermination. Quote me chapter and verse. The man never even wielded power. He may have been used as an authority by Stalin and Mao and others, but that's like blaming Jesus for the Crusades of the Middle Ages and the Wars of Religion of the 16th and 17th centuries.


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Grim74
April 13, 2018, 10:30pm
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Quoted from KingstonMariner
Universities do teach things about atrocities committed under the Soviet Union for example. I should know. I did history at uni and was taught about totalitarianism. Left and right. But that has nothing to do with the situation in Syria. We're not talking about which totalitarians killed more people. We're talking about which part of the political spectrum is encouraging war in the middle east.

You said it was liberal lefties like Blair to blame. I don't think Blair is a leftie. He did more for the richest than the poorest in society. The wealth gap grew larger under him than under any PM for generations. I was a Lib Dem supporter and I used to boast that my party's policies were far more left wing than Labour under Blair (mainly to urine off my Labour supporting friend, but actually true). The left wing Labourites epitomised by Corbyn are much anti-interventionist than the Tories and the right wing of the Labour party. The push for war isn't coming from the lefties. It's so frigging self-evident even an imbecile would understand. Why do you find that so difficult?

The US is not led by a leftie. It is a country that hasn't had a left winger elected to its legislature for generations. Britain is not led by a leftie. France is led by some sort of Blair tribute act - someone who is trying to modify and protect capitalism not bring about a workers paradise. The press and media are by and large right of centre.

As for blaming Karl Marx. You have really got no understanding have you. Show me the parts of his writings where he urges any atrocity or extermination. Quote me chapter and verse. The man never even wielded power. He may have been used as an authority by Stalin and Mao and others, but that's like blaming Jesus for the Crusades of the Middle Ages and the Wars of Religion of the 16th and 17th centuries.


Correction I didn't mention liberal lefties like Blair. A true liberal leftie should never be in power and the USA understands this which is why they have prospered as a nation. It's a sad state of affairs when a true leftist movement becomes anything more than a protest party.

Here's a quote from Marx -
"You must, therefore, confess that by "individual" you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible."

Now I've no idea if he wanted this hate speech to result in the death of so many millions but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Here's another quote -
"There is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror."

I'm sure you would agree that the revolutionary terror that was to follow included many atrocities and exterminations.

And another -
" the last capitalist we hang shall be the one that sold us the rope".

Nice chap wasn't  he!

And one last one -
The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.

Marx may not of been directly responsible for the deaths but the fact remains he was a peddler of poison if he hadn't written any of his works then millions of lives would have been spared,


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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KingstonMariner
July 3, 2018, 12:47am
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I think Marx was probably being realistic. He knew what the response would be to communism. He knew they would have to be ruthless or be wiped out themselves.

'If voting changed anything they would ban it.' as the old graffito used to say.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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