Fan ownership

Is the amount required really insurmountable?

I note even tho willing to sell Fenty has never actually named his price. Bit we know about the 2m loans and let's say it would take another million to rid him completely and allow a good lump left for solvency. That's 3mill.

Well there's 5,000 season ticket holders (for now), then there's the floating or exile regulars who alternate but add another 1 or 2,000 to the gate regular. When we go to Wembley in out lowest ebb we take 10,000.

If those fans could be enthused a la operation promotion and enticed with the option of ridding Fenty and owning their own piece of the club and having a real say then to raise 3m would only cost 10,000 fans 300 quod each. Surely manageable if the desire is there?

There are 3k STH a lot of whom will be kids and a lot will be OAP`s who may not have a lot of spare cash either? The amount is not insurmountable but not naming a price makes life difficult but the Trust would need a fighting fund of at least 500k to get started and would more than likely require 2k people putting in £250 EA. I think the Trust membership stands around 1k and these are the people most likely to cough up so it would have to be cap in hand to local business etc and a massive drive at the remaining fanbase to get the rest.

The club has no net worth. Wasn't it Glasgow rangers that was sold for one pound".   You should be able to buy the club for a similar amount on condition Fenty wipes out his debt. I am sure a new fan owned club could easily raise working capital with a share issue or omething similar.

Quoted from realist

The club has no net worth. Wasn't it Glasgow rangers that was sold for one pound".   You should be able to buy the club for a similar amount on condition Fenty wipes out his debt. I am sure a new fan owned club could easily raise working capital with a share issue or omething similar.

The thing is, if JF wipes out his debt, it would improve the value of the club by that amount (tax payable offset against cumulative losses?) and from memory would then give the club a positive net worth..

There seems to be some fresh start middle ground somewhere going forward..

For what it's worth, I think a figure approaching £5m needs to be raised, a proportion to JF, a £2m injection into cashflow, £1m set aside for contingencies and £1m set aside towards the cost of the new stadium application and sprucing BP up in the meantime to make matchdays a more pleasurable experience.

If someone wanted to push the club further and at a faster rate you could add the £5m to another £25m to cover the cost of the new stadium build and not be fixated on just PP, enabling development cash coming back at a later stage. For example, central area of the town for the stadium and a longer term plan to improve central Grimsby side by side the council with enabling developments exactly where they are needed. So that could be an initial £30m.

£5m or £30m seems way outside the realms of fan ownership, but the lower amount could be a fan involved consortium. We can't just want regime change without having plans for the club to make a great stride forward however tempting it would be to sack Slade on the spot on the first morning..

Not an option unless the club ends up in receivership first.

When you collect whatever sum Fenty needs to clear his loan please don't forget the sum required to buy his shares as well, not much point even in having a pipe-dream about owning the club if Fenty is left with as much as a seat with his name on even less any shares which still give him a say in the running of the club.

His sole involvement when he does finally go (however that happens) can be no more than a season ticket which he pays full price for

I do not think fan answer is the answer.

In any group of people (or fans) it is human nature that a few good people will take the lead and do 80% of the work.

Fans taking ownership of the Club sounds good in principle. Even if this work initially, what happens in the medium and longterm when key leaders are no longer involved?  This can happen for a number of reasons (eg work commitments, personal reasons or too much work involved in running the Club).  

Initial enthusiasm can easily wane over time.  The Trust has had different leaders over time, a commitment that is very laudable but does not come with the much greater responsibilities and stress that running a football club does. We would always need more money to keep things viable.

As well as the initial outlay it would need working capital and a contingency budget,think that is out of fans reach.

Additionally the annual balance sheet in my experience does not convey the whole picture and reality is often very different .

Think a club run by a fans committee would be a nightmare myself,but then again no answer than a very wealth individual taking a benign interest,Must go my unicorn needs feeding.

So much easier to grow a fan owned club from afresh as opposed to taking over a lumbering established club with ongoing contracts, commitments, full time behind the scenes staff etc...
from day one you have a massive commitment to pay existing staff etc and need an overdraft to run through the pre season times were staff still need paying but your income has all but ceased.  That has to be guaranteed somewhere.

Minefield !!

But just imagine, a board composed of an Operations Director, a Director of football, a Business improvement Director, a Communications Director.  All answerable to the shareholders.  Nah, it’ll never happen, far too sensible and structured for GTFC........ or is it?

Quoted from Shilts

Is the amount required really insurmountable?

I note even tho willing to sell Fenty has never actually named his price. Bit we know about the 2m loans and let's say it would take another million to rid him completely and allow a good lump left for solvency. That's 3mill.

Well there's 5,000 season ticket holders (for now), then there's the floating or exile regulars who alternate but add another 1 or 2,000 to the gate regular. When we go to Wembley in out lowest ebb we take 10,000.

If those fans could be enthused a la operation promotion and enticed with the option of ridding Fenty and owning their own piece of the club and having a real say then to raise 3m would only cost 10,000 fans 300 quod each. Surely manageable if the desire is there?

FORGET IT

There's no way the fans should look at buying Fenty out. The only way the fans should take the club on is if it is offered debt free or after administration.

Why should the fans pay for the previous failures of others? The board want out, but they want their money back and that is massively unlikely to happen.

I've brought this up before, but i will bring it up again. Is there no middle ground with JF still involved? Everyone blames him for everything and says that he always gets his own way, but he will maintain that decisions are made by the board, not him alone. People keep saying that the other board members are merely yes men. I have no idea how much, if any truth there is in that but it's just become accepted now by most.

Is there no way the fans could raise money to put one or more people inside the board room? How much would it cost to do that and is it feasible? We can all sit here and throw brickbats at JF, but one thing you have to give him credit for is that the club isn't in the sh1te financially. There are teams in a far more parlous state than us in that regard and if the playing side hadn't been so dire over the last few years we wouldn't be complaining so loudly. Getting others onto the board with fresh ideas and a say in planning and choosing a manager could be all that it takes. Do people think that choosing a manager would be any easier for a fan run club? Because that's what most of it boils down to. Get the playing side right and the rest is far easier, with happy fans and more money coming in.

I'm just trying to look at this from another angle, because it's easy to sit here and say sack the manager, oust the board, but i feel and have felt for some time that they may just need a shake up. The board members are all very similar in their outlook i would imagine as they are all very similar in character and background. They are all Town fans though and i imagine it hurts them just as much as us to see all the discontent and failures on the pitch.

The Trust board member made the feelings of the fans known at the last board meeting, so if the fans had another one or two members in there, maybe they would take more notice and have more sway. Maybe i've gone mad from log cabin fever, sat here waiting for the rain to stop so i can get on with what i was doing, so feel free to ignore/rant/agree/disagree/discuss/throw things at the screen.

Quoted from ginnywings

I've brought this up before, but i will bring it up again. Is there no middle ground with JF still involved? Everyone blames him for everything and says that he always gets his own way, but he will maintain that decisions are made by the board, not him alone. People keep saying that the other board members are merely yes men. I have no idea how much, if any truth there is in that but it's just become accepted now by most.

Is there no way the fans could raise money to put one or more people inside the board room? How much would it cost to do that and is it feasible? We can all sit here and throw brickbats at JF, but one thing you have to give him credit for is that the club isn't in the sh1te financially. There are teams in a far more parlous state than us in that regard and if the playing side hadn't been so dire over the last few years we wouldn't be complaining so loudly. Getting others onto the board with fresh ideas and a say in planning and choosing a manager could be all that it takes. Do people think that choosing a manager would be any easier for a fan run club? Because that's what most of it boils down to. Get the playing side right and the rest is far easier, with happy fans and more money coming in.

I'm just trying to look at this from another angle, because it's easy to sit here and say sack the manager, oust the board, but i feel and have felt for some time that they may just need a shake up. The board members are all very similar in their outlook i would imagine as they are all very similar in character and background. They are all Town fans though and i imagine it hurts them just as much as us to see all the discontent and failures on the pitch.

The Trust board member made the feelings of the fans known at the last board meeting, so if the fans had another one or two members in there, maybe they would take more notice and have more sway. Maybe i've gone mad from log cabin fever, sat here waiting for the rain to stop so i can get on with what i was doing, so feel free to ignore/rant/agree/disagree/discuss/throw things at the screen.

I think you have to look at his record in charge first. Then look at the relationship we have with the other people that tried to come on the board in the last 14 years. Then look at his relationship with the media. Look at his relationship and communication with the fans.
I think we need a complete fresh start.

You've made a massive assumption that JF can work with board members that aren't yes men. The past 15 years or so have shown that it isn't possible (Parker/Mullen to name two, that have tried and failed).  Either JF is so hard to work with or JF wants people to work for him, not with him.

The Ego is too big to control.

  

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

You've made a massive assumption that JF can work with board members that aren't yes men. The past 15 years or so have shown that it isn't possible (Parker/Mullen to name two, that have tried and failed).  Either JF is so hard to work with or JF wants people to work for him, not with him.

The Ego is too big to control.

  

I've made no assumptions as i have no idea whether it is true that JF doesn't play well with others, or it is just perceived wisdom. Just trying to broaden the debate and look at it from a different perspective but i expect it will just be more of the same "get rid" type comments.

I don't think fan control is possible myself; there's just too much money involved before we even get to competency of running a football club.

Quoted from ginnywings

I've brought this up before, but i will bring it up again. Is there no middle ground with JF still involved? Everyone blames him for everything and says that he always gets his own way, but he will maintain that decisions are made by the board, not him alone. People keep saying that the other board members are merely yes men. I have no idea how much, if any truth there is in that but it's just become accepted now by most.

Is there no way the fans could raise money to put one or more people inside the board room? How much would it cost to do that and is it feasible? We can all sit here and throw brickbats at JF, but one thing you have to give him credit for is that the club isn't in the sh1te financially. There are teams in a far more parlous state than us in that regard and if the playing side hadn't been so dire over the last few years we wouldn't be complaining so loudly. Getting others onto the board with fresh ideas and a say in planning and choosing a manager could be all that it takes. Do people think that choosing a manager would be any easier for a fan run club? Because that's what most of it boils down to. Get the playing side right and the rest is far easier, with happy fans and more money coming in.

I'm just trying to look at this from another angle, because it's easy to sit here and say sack the manager, oust the board, but i feel and have felt for some time that they may just need a shake up. The board members are all very similar in their outlook i would imagine as they are all very similar in character and background. They are all Town fans though and i imagine it hurts them just as much as us to see all the discontent and failures on the pitch.

The Trust board member made the feelings of the fans known at the last board meeting, so if the fans had another one or two members in there, maybe they would take more notice and have more sway. Maybe i've gone mad from log cabin fever, sat here waiting for the rain to stop so i can get on with what i was doing, so feel free to ignore/rant/agree/disagree/discuss/throw things at the screen.

I know he's not popular after the Fans Forum, but Stephen Marley will have had a massive influence in financial control at the club. He's been Five Star Fish and GTFC's accountant for years. Stephen is a pragmatist's pragmatist and can come across as a bit lairy at times, but he's actually a decent bloke, he was my accountant for quite a few years. He's very engaging on a one to one basis and there's many a time when I've had him laughing with tears rolling down his face. It's just that he's an accountant and shouldn't be anywhere near the coalface of the consumer. It was a mistake for him to be at the Fans Forum as it is way out of his comfort zone and didn't play to his strengths. If JF left the board, SM and PD could still have vital roles to play, but maybe best only in the fields they specialise in..

I would love to know how many players we could have at the club to run with a projected profit of say 50 to 100K a year, including bringing in a few loan-players in the transfer window? So that the club has a financial buffer for any unforeseen circumstances and extra cash for the following years.

Under fan ownership, the club could never run at a projected loss per financial year as the bank would be more likely to call in the receivers at the first chance of claiming any monies back.  I've seen this first hand for a company I worked for 11 years when the recession hit the construction industry.

You can't project anything really. You can have a best guess but it all boils down to what happens on the pitch. If you have a projected loss and do better than expected on the pitch, that loss will be diminished or eradicated, or even run into profit. I think the budget is set with a certain amount of fans in mind over the season. Get those fans up and the projected shortfall disappears. If the fans stay away, then you need to have the money to cover it. If you sell a player for a big chunk like we did last season, then great, profit for the club. If we had a good cup run and league campaign as Lincoln did last season, you're quids in, but once again it all boils down to success on the pitch and picking a manager that can get you that. Therein lies the problem.

People who talk about administration tend to overlook the points deduction.

Quoted from friskneymariner

People who talk about administration tend to overlook the points deduction.

The only person who can take the club into  administration is JF. If he were to do that he says goodbye to his money and cripples the club going forward with the points deduction!

Quoted from friskneymariner

People who talk about administration tend to overlook the points deduction.

If the current trend is maintained a points deduction will be irrelevant

Quoted from moosey_club

So much easier to grow a fan owned club from afresh as opposed to taking over a lumbering established club with ongoing contracts, commitments, full time behind the scenes staff etc...
from day one you have a massive commitment to pay existing staff etc and need an overdraft to run through the pre season times were staff still need paying but your income has all but ceased.  That has to be guaranteed somewhere.

Minefield !!  Pipe dream

Quoted from Ipswin

When you collect whatever sum Fenty needs to clear his loan please don't forget the sum required to buy his shares as well, not much point even in having a pipe-dream about owning the club if Fenty is left with as much as a seat with his name on even less any shares which still give him a say in the running of the club.

His sole involvement when he does finally go (however that happens) can be no more than a season ticket which he pays full price for

Agree. The price will be between £0 and £3m. I think in any negotiations the starting point should be the £3m lost revenue in the Conference, the £xm in lost attendances, goodwill, and commercial income due to poor PR on the pitch and off it.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Agree. The price will be between £0 and £3m. I think in any negotiations the starting point should be the £3m lost revenue in the Conference, the £xm in lost attendances, goodwill, and commercial income due to poor PR on the pitch and off it.

I like it! Using your figures Fenty should be paying us for him to intercourse off  

Quoted from Ipswin

I like it! Using your figures Fenty should be paying us for him to intercourse off  

Well that is a starting point.  

Obviously it's just a moral argument with him, but on the fans' side it should definitely govern what we should be prepared to countenance.