Future of Europe after Brexit.

As expected, we've agreed to everything the EU wanted because, well, we've got no other choice. A hard Brexit would be so catastrophically bad for our economy, we'd have to be (even more) stupid to go that route. It's no surprise that those in government advocating this route have shown themselves to be empty vessels - they've got no answers to any of the difficult issues that bear any relation to the real world.

I listened to that cretinous blowhard Farage whinging on the radio last night about 'betrayal' or somesuch nonsense and couldn't help but wonder why anybody listens to anything he says. His 'solution' for the Irish border situation is, erm, well, the EU should just allow things to continue as they are over that particular border. No thought (or perhaps, mention) about what this would mean for the customs union because he must surely know that there isn't any sort of an easy solution, especially as the DUP won't allow anything which 'separates' Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. If such a deal was allowed, the Scots and Welsh will want the same. And why not? Farage says things which sound simple and reasonable because they are simple. Two different meanings of the word in that sentence and reason doesn't come into it.

It seems to me we're probably heading for some sort of a deal where we pay for limited access to the single market (in a similar manner to Norway and Switzerland) and remain inside the customs union. From my viewpoint, this is probably the best of a bad bunch of choices. It would get you out from under the purview of the ECJ to a good degree (except where EU citizens living here are concerned) but, of course, we'll have to follow all EU regulations in any case just to be able to keep trading with them.

We've caved in to the EU because 13 of the cabinet are remainers, it's the remainers who have shoved a pole through the spokes on the bike they are riding but it is the country who will bear the bruises and grazes. It's the remainers who are trying to sabotage brexit, the enemy within.

When trading with the EU we all ready comply, leaving the EU will help smaller companies flourish due to, in their cases unnecessary red tape.

Farage may be a blowhard but he has exposed the EU for everything it has done or planned, some of the staunch remainers said would never happen, like an EU Army or Federalism.

The people of the UK didn't vote for a political union. That right was taken away from us and if we stay in the EU the EU Commission will decide what laws are passed and what countries will surrender at their request.

Quoted from Marinerz93

We've caved in to the EU because 13 of the cabinet are remainers, it's the remainers who have shoved a pole through the spokes on the bike they are riding but it is the country who will bear the bruises and grazes. It's the remainers who are trying to sabotage brexit, the enemy within.

When trading with the EU we all ready comply, leaving the EU will help smaller companies flourish due to, in their cases unnecessary red tape.

Farage may be a blowhard but he has exposed the EU for everything it has done or planned, some of the staunch remainers said would never happen, like an EU Army or Federalism.

The people of the UK didn't vote for a political union. That right was taken away from us and if we stay in the EU the EU Commission will decide what laws are passed and what countries will surrender at their request.

we've caved in to Europe because we had to a) because they hold all the cards and b) its becoming increasingly obvious that Brexit is an incredibly complicated operation, as soon as they think of  a solution there are a whole host of consequences and fresh problems to solve. and the silence from Bexiteers on these problems is deafening - they haven't got a feckin clue and it's us, ruled by a total bunch of incompetents (& labour are no better), who will have to live with the consequences.
may is doing the best she can, and i think she believes that the best course of action (in order to avoid an economic disaster) is the softest of soft brexit.
i also think that its beginning to dawn on the more intelligent brexiteers that this whole thing is just  a tad more complicated than they ever thought, and maybe brexit wasn't such a great idea after all

Quoted from forza ivano

we've caved in to Europe because we had to a) because they hold all the cards and b) its becoming increasingly obvious that Brexit is an incredibly complicated operation, as soon as they think of  a solution there are a whole host of consequences and fresh problems to solve. and the silence from Bexiteers on these problems is deafening - they haven't got a feckin clue and it's us, ruled by a total bunch of incompetents (& labour are no better), who will have to live with the consequences.
may is doing the best she can, and i think she believes that the best course of action (in order to avoid an economic disaster) is the softest of soft brexit.
i also think that its beginning to dawn on the more intelligent brexiteers that this whole thing is just  a tad more complicated than they ever thought, and maybe brexit wasn't such a great idea after all

I agree that it has become more complicated but that is down to the EU's negotiators, I don't believe they hold all the cards, they haven't planned any cut backs for when we are out of the EU. The personalities driving the EU are hell bent on full federalism and I see more and more remainers commenting that they didn't realise how narrow minded the likes of verhofstadt and Junker are and brexit was the right idea.  The EU is going to collapse under the weight of spending, spending that is out of control and is going to get worse as they press on without our billions after we leave.

May is and always was a remainer along with a large portion of her cabinet, and weak brexit is bad for the UK because as it is for the time being it will be for a few years to come with our hands being tied, she has sold us out. I think Labour under Corbyn would have done worse, he has no spine.

We need to free ourselves of the ECJ and we should be able to make trade deals with any country of our choosing and not be shackled by the EU or have the EU make a trade deals for us without British representation.

Expenditure on the EU is little more than a rounding error as far as the gigantic European economy is concerned. Around 1% or so of GDP.

The idea that the whole EU edifice will somehow collapse due to overspending is one of the most bonkers things I've read in a long while. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of EU expenditure takes place within EU countries. Reinvested, so to speak.

Just how is EU expenditure (which is already due to fall compared to current levels) going to lead to this collapse?

Simple question. Let's have a simple answer with facts or logic to back it up.

You're pissing into the wind with that question Maringer. There won't be an answer other than more rhetoric.

Brexiteers form half the Tory party so the excuse that it's all the fault of retainers is another canard. If that was true they'd band together and take over the show - I'm sure the retainers would be happy to let them have a go because the mess they'd make would kill them off for good as a political threat. Instead they prefer to stand by the sidelines and moan, because they haven't a flipping clue how to deal with it in reality.

Quoted from Maringer

Expenditure on the EU is little more than a rounding error as far as the gigantic European economy is concerned. Around 1% or so of GDP.

The idea that the whole EU edifice will somehow collapse due to overspending is one of the most bonkers things I've read in a long while. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of EU expenditure takes place within EU countries. Reinvested, so to speak.

Just how is EU expenditure (which is already due to fall compared to current levels) going to lead to this collapse?

Simple question. Let's have a simple answer with facts or logic to back it up.

The last thing you said was bonkers and would never happen would be an EU Army, something that is coming to fruition.

The wages and pensions costs are increasing all the time there are plenty bureaucrats who are earning 3 times what the prime minster is on, and as the EU army is forming billions will be sucked out of the pot and there are only a few countries putting in, the rest are taking out. If you think Greece was the one time event, there are others not far off what happened to Greece happening to them, Italy, Spain are struggling with massive youth unemployment leading to financial struggles within their economies. Will the Germans treat them the same as Greece.

A simple question, if we end up staying in the EU would you happy with an EU army and our forces controlled by Brussels, and an EU commission who makes all the laws without consulting the people, and we are forced to join the Euro, because that's were the federal EU is heading.

If being in the EU is so great explain to me why Grimsby has suffered so much since we have been in it and explain why the CFP and CAP are good for Britain. Also explain where our rights to vote on joining a political union went because the vote in the 70's was for common trading not political union. Funny how the judges had to get involved for us to leave but not to join.

Quoted from Marinerz93

The last thing you said was bonkers and would never happen would be an EU Army, something that is coming to fruition.

The wages and pensions costs are increasing all the time there are plenty bureaucrats who are earning 3 times what the prime minster is on, and as the EU army is forming billions will be sucked out of the pot and there are only a few countries putting in, the rest are taking out. If you think Greece was the one time event, there are others not far off what happened to Greece happening to them, Italy, Spain are struggling with massive youth unemployment leading to financial struggles within their economies. Will the Germans treat them the same as Greece.

A simple question, if we end up staying in the EU would you happy with an EU army and our forces controlled by Brussels, and an EU commission who makes all the laws without consulting the people, and we are forced to join the Euro, because that's were the federal EU is heading.

If being in the EU is so great explain to me why Grimsby has suffered so much since we have been in it and explain why the CFP and CAP are good for Britain. Also explain where our rights to vote on joining a political union went because the vote in the 70's was for common trading not political union. Funny how the judges had to get involved for us to leave but not to join.

The Greeks, Spanish and Italians did it to themselves. Spending money they didn't have. Quite happy to take EU handouts when it suited. All that infrastructure in Spain and Greece in particular (and Ireland) that the EU paid for (yes, us and the rich north European countries) will not go away. They lifted those countries from poverty. They then went and spunked loads more money they didn't have (not even backed by handouts) and couldn't afford it when it was time to pay. Granted the Germans went about making them pay for the bailouts they provided in a ham-fisted and counterproductive way. If they PIIGS hadn't been members of the EU they'd have needed bailouts even more desperately. They'd have had to rely on the Americans and they exact a bigger price than the Germans (as they would have found if they'd elected left-wing governments whilst outside the EU) . They were pisspoor (apart from Italy, and that has always been so corrupt it was bound to get itself into trouble - and had the wherewithal given the wealth in the North to mitigate a lot of the impact of austerity IF THE fornicators PAID ANY TAX). All that would be the same without the EU. You just need a passing acquaintance with history to know that.

Grimsby was absolutely shafted but he British government on entry to the EEC. They happily traded our fishing industry for the benefits of access to their markets. The farming industry has somehow survived (having had to adapt to a different set of subsidies and controls to the ones we had before we joined the EEC). Different but no worse on balance. They're still protected unlike most other industries - that's not to say they haven't had difficulties, but they are protected.

The EU army (and state) will come sooner or later. Just like the US army (and common currency) did. Originally each colony/state had its own force and the only reason the national army evolved so quickly was because of the necessities of war (against the motherland). The states may not have liked the loss of the loss of autonomy but it was better in their eyes than the alternative. Fine if you wanna stay out, but you have to accept the consequences of your choice. It's no good whinging about the EU now. You got what you voted for.

We're a bit part player on our own. A relatively unimportant country - and increasingly so given the growth in Asian economies (and African in the future)*. A fig leaf for the Americans when they want the appearance of legitimacy for their foreign adventures. The threat of the Soviet union gave us a little more independence of action as the US wasn't so dominant globally and we had a more viable left of centre alternative than we've had for a long time.

* once the new high speed Eurasian railways kick in (the new 'Silk Road'), we'll be even more powerless. Seapower will be less important.

Wondering what type of Brexit this is so far, a 'red, white and blue one' like Theresa May said she wanted? a lexit? hard? soft? soft, strong and long? moderate? Firm to good?

So much for "Brexit means Brexit" eh?

Quoted from Manchester Mariner

Wondering what type of Brexit this is so far, a 'red, white and blue one' like Theresa May said she wanted? a lexit? hard? soft? soft, strong and long? moderate? Firm to good?

So much for "Brexit means Brexit" eh?

It's the haven't got a clue what we're doing or what we will end up with Brexit