Who Are We?

Whatever your opinion of the footballing reasons for the events of this week it raises a lot of questions about what sort of club we are and what we want to become. The new ground aside we don't seem top have any clear long term vision as a football club or as a business.The new manager and JF don't even seem to be able to agree on a target for next season.

When you look at the 3 managers we have had this season they are all extremely different and will need very different players.Successful clubs have a long term plan which is reflected in their managerial appointments. Teams that have risen through the leagues like Swansea and even the Scunts have replaced their managers with similar managers who will play a similar way. What style of play do we want? What is our policy on youth players? What squad size do we want? What age of player do we want? What length of contract do we give to players / managers? How much time do we give to managers to get results? I don't expect to be privy to all the answers but it would be nice to believe that these questions are at least being considered and that the manager and the chairman are on the same page.

I've done a lot of cringing this week and had to put up with people laughing at our club again. It would be nice to think that it was all part of a long term vision rather than a short term knee jerk reaction.

I'm going to say it to get it out the way because it annoys the shite out of me...

... We are all town aren't we?

Not sure about what your saying check out this link maybe not all clubs are as long term as you think,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39505512

We have a plan, get up a league and move to a new ground, dead simple you don't need a 10 page manifesto. MB came in saying he wanted to do this and that and just set himself up for a fall.

Your point about managers is an odd one too The Swans - Monk, Gudelin (spelling) Bradley and Clements, similar managers? did they all want to play the same way? The Scunts - Since 2013 Laws, Wilcox, Robins and now Alexander 4 managers in 4 years is not really a long term plan IMHO. You don't need a policy on everything we are a football club not the feckin government.

Quoted from Vance Warner

Whatever your opinion of the footballing reasons for the events of this week it raises a lot of questions about what sort of club we are and what we want to become. The new ground aside we don't seem top have any clear long term vision as a football club or as a business.The new manager and JF don't even seem to be able to agree on a target for next season.

When you look at the 3 managers we have had this season they are all extremely different and will need very different players.Successful clubs have a long term plan which is reflected in their managerial appointments. Teams that have risen through the leagues like Swansea and even the Scunts have replaced their managers with similar managers who will play a similar way. What style of play do we want? What is our policy on youth players? What squad size do we want? What age of player do we want? What length of contract do we give to players / managers? How much time do we give to managers to get results? I don't expect to be privy to all the answers but it would be nice to believe that these questions are at least being considered and that the manager and the chairman are on the same page.

I've done a lot of cringing this week and had to put up with people laughing at our club again. It would be nice to think that it was all part of a long term vision rather than a short term knee jerk reaction.

There is no long term in football. There is money, and there are players who either fit in or don't. Managers come and go at 99.9999 % of clubs and there is absolutely no shame regarding what has happened this week. We made a mistake and have tried to rectify it, just as all clubs do.

The only long term "vision" we have is off the field by moving to a new stadium which may be the catalyst for a more sustainable future which would be great.  

Its nice to hear we are going to try and win the league but lets be honest why say things like that just so fans can feel good.  It makes you a target from the fans when we dont win the league.  Lets just get behind the new regime and help our club back to where we belong.

I think the OP makes some good and interesting points.

It may be harder for lower league clubs to have such long terms plans and stick to them, but it wouldn't hurt to have such plans.

Barcelona have their 4-3-3 system that runs through La Masia and their first team managers are required to use it as their primary system (obviously allowed to deviate from it at times but primarily 433).

Southampton I think have a good long term model and have had Pochettino, Koeman and now Puel who have all carried their project on and they continue to bring youth through and sign young promising talent.

Swansea at one spell went from Martinez, to Rodgers, to Monk, who all had the same philosophies and meant little upheaval/transition with each change.

All those 3 are at massively different levels to us but they're still football clubs. Yes they can afford to be more picky and choosy but would it hurt us to have a plan which wouldn't need to be ripped up and redesigned every few years?

It won't be long before JF is shaking the hand of another new manager and saying he was the overwhelming choice, they are delighted to have him and are looking to the future. Trouble is that in football, the future is now, unless you are one of the very big clubs. I just hope we have a bit of forward momentum on the pitch for a while before it all goes t1ts up again. It is the lot of a lower league football fan.

Quoted from Tommy

I think the OP makes some good and interesting points.

It may be harder for lower league clubs to have such long terms plans and stick to them, but it wouldn't hurt to have such plans.

Barcelona have their 4-3-3 system that runs through La Masia and their first team managers are required to use it as their primary system (obviously allowed to deviate from it at times but primarily 433).

Southampton I think have a good long term model and have had Pochettino, Koeman and now Puel who have all carried their project on and they continue to bring youth through and sign young promising talent.

Swansea at one spell went from Martinez, to Rodgers, to Monk, who all had the same philosophies and meant little upheaval/transition with each change.

All those 3 are at massively different levels to us but they're still football clubs. Yes they can afford to be more picky and choosy but would it hurt us to have a plan which wouldn't need to be ripped up and redesigned every few years?

I think the premier league clubs can afford to do as you say, but what chance of that lower down? McMenemy, Kerr and Buckley have been the most successful managers in my lifetime and all with different styles. The one thing they had in common was winning which is the main thing. Getting the best manager for the job regardless of style is my main concern.  

I think sometimes people  think GTFC is a bigger club than it really is.
I'd rather cringe this week than fight off relegation. next season.  
People look at the managers 'available'  and moan when we don't sign Adkins or Readfern or whoever.
Has it occurred to anyone they might not actually want the job !!!!!
After six long years in the wilderness we are back in the league. JF is probably petrified of going back there and I can't blame him. He got burnt with Woods and made damn sure it was t going to happen again.  If people want to laugh I really don't give a fat rats t-t. I trust Slade to steady the ship in the league we're in and that will do for now.  

Quoted from Civvy at last

I think sometimes people  think GTFC is a bigger club than it really is.
I'd rather cringe this week than fight off relegation. next season.  
People look at the managers 'available'  and moan when we don't sign Adkins or Readfern or whoever.
Has it occurred to anyone they might not actually want the job !!!!!
After six long years in the wilderness we are back in the league. JF is probably petrified of going back there and I can't blame him. He got burnt with Woods and made damn sure it was t going to happen again.  If people want to laugh I really don't give a fat rats t-t. I trust Slade to steady the ship in the league we're in and that will do for now.  

A steady hand may just steer us to PP as a football league club.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I think the premier league clubs can afford to do as you say, but what chance of that lower down? McMenemy, Kerr and Buckley have been the most successful managers in my lifetime and all with different styles. The one thing they had in common was winning which is the main thing. Getting the best manager for the job regardless of style is my main concern.  

You're probably right to be fair. In terms of doing it to the extent that those Club's I mentioned do.

However there are still things I would like to see us put in place as aims/values that we could be proud of and use to sell the Club when recruiting.

For instance, I'd love us to really commit to youth development and implement some of the stuff Bignot spoke about to bridge the gap between YT's at 18, to being ready for first team football.

I'd love us to say, right, each season we want to give first team debuts to 3 academy graduates, and sign a minimum number of youths on pro deals each year too.

Imagine the strength and pulling power that would give us to attract young players, and keep the best local kids in our system rather than going to Hull, Scunny or elsewhere. If we build a reputation for believing and investing in youth, and progressing players into the first team, kids, their families and lads released at 16 would all be more keen to come to us.

It was difficult for Hurst to do stuff like this with the pressure of needing to get promoted ASAP out of a league with 2 promotion spots, but hopefully going forward we could look at things like this.

In 2018/19 season all EFL clubs have to have 1(i think) player that has played at the club at youth level. 19/20 it goes to 2 players, if you cannot do that you lose that spot on the bench i.e 6 subs instead of 7. Hopefully this may help the clubs bridge a small gap in youth development.

The target is to beat Cambridge on Friday

Quoted from Civvy at last

I think sometimes people  think GTFC is a bigger club than it really is.
I'd rather cringe this week than fight off relegation. next season.  
People look at the managers 'available'  and moan when we don't sign Adkins or Readfern or whoever.
Has it occurred to anyone they might not actually want the job !!!!!
After six long years in the wilderness we are back in the league. JF is probably petrified of going back there and I can't blame him. He got burnt with Woods and made damn sure it was t going to happen again.  If people want to laugh I really don't give a fat rats t-t. I trust Slade to steady the ship in the league we're in and that will do for now.  

And newel plus rob Scott! Good post civvy. I think the op has a point, I've always wanted us to see if we could replicate what Crewe did and what many French and Dutch clubs do with having a really vibrant youth set up. The other option is a bit more ephemeral. The weird thing about gtfc is that it's geographical isolation is a negative, but in actual fact can be a positive. There have been a number of players, not always successful I grant you, who have come to the club because of close connections. Equally for a minority of players they just fall for the place and don't move on, or like the place so much they are more than happy to return. In the past we've had the mores, graham Rodger, Paul groves, Dave smith, Stuart Watkins the ex sheff wed lad smith, who have all made massive contributions to the club. We also have a similar breed now.slade is a possible example, but we have Disley, wilkinson, woods, Dave Moore, Pearson mckeown and possibly gowling who seem to have a deep affection for the place. If you can harness this then you may get the continuity of purpose and committment that the op is looking for. A bit ephemeral as I said but I hope it makes some sort of sense

It's an interesting question and I think a lot of fans would like to see their club do something that makes it stand out from the rest.  Now, no club is going to be able to reinvent the wheel.  All methods of playing the game have been done before, it's just about finding a system that suits the players you have and executing it well.

In a perfect world, I would be having GTFC play super attractive football every week with us passing each team off the park and every player having come from our youth team.  But that's not going to happen.  

The thing about a long-term plan is that, unless you are one of the big six or seven clubs in the PL, it's going to fail at some point.  Every season several teams have to get relegated and one day, it's going to be your club.  So there are problems that arise that require short-term solutions.  I personally don't want Town to become a sacking club but sometimes it will be needed.  Our goals at the moment should be to 1) stay in the league, 2) slowly build towards a promotion and 3) improve club/fan relations, which for some reason seem to be at an all-time low at the moment.  The majority of clubs will have the same aims.  The board think that this week's decision will satisfy the first two, so I think we'll have to bite the bullet in terms of how our club looks to the outside world for the time being.

But there are things which I believe can be realistically achieved within 20 years that could give the club a renewed purpose and identity:
- A sustainable business structure, with an income stream partly provided by a new stadium.
- A partially fan-owned club, with safeguards in place to protect us from a takeover by any basket case Italian businessmen.
- A more accountable board, with responsibility for decision making spread more evenly.
- Moves to reduce ticket prices over a period of time after/if the new stadium is built.
- A youth structure that is capable of producing graduates who are good enough for the first-team.
- A local player to be in the squad each season; this would give the team an identity and bridge the gap between players and supporters.

The last one may not be consistently achievable each season but I'd like to see an attempt to make it happen.  We can't really expect to have any control over our style of play or footballing direction, we have to trust the management staff's opinion on that.  We just need to make sure that the club's future is safe for the next generation of fans to enjoy.

Let's be honest, even though Bignot wasn't getting results, everything he said and was doing to bring the behind the scenes section of the club was correct. That development will now stop and we'll continue to be behind the rest of the league, especially with the youth team.

Quoted from Grantley

Let's be honest, even though Bignot wasn't getting results, everything he said and was doing to bring the behind the scenes section of the club was correct. That development will now stop and we'll continue to be behind the rest of the league, especially with the youth team.

Really good post from mariner devil and many points in there than the trust in particular should be considering.
I agree grantley that Bignot was at his best talking about these things, but don't forget the youth set up and development are areas where wilkinson has oodles of experience, not least from his own life story! It may not be all doom and gloom especially with Wright and rose plus the lad at Grantham looking so promising

Quoted from Tommy

You're probably right to be fair. In terms of doing it to the extent that those Club's I mentioned do.

However there are still things I would like to see us put in place as aims/values that we could be proud of and use to sell the Club when recruiting.

For instance, I'd love us to really commit to youth development and implement some of the stuff Bignot spoke about to bridge the gap between YT's at 18, to being ready for first team football.

I'd love us to say, right, each season we want to give first team debuts to 3 academy graduates, and sign a minimum number of youths on pro deals each year too.

Imagine the strength and pulling power that would give us to attract young players, and keep the best local kids in our system rather than going to Hull, Scunny or elsewhere. If we build a reputation for believing and investing in youth, and progressing players into the first team, kids, their families and lads released at 16 would all be more keen to come to us.

It was difficult for Hurst to do stuff like this with the pressure of needing to get promoted ASAP out of a league with 2 promotion spots, but hopefully going forward we could look at things like this.

We already had some players that had come through the youth system but he would rather send them out on loan than give them a try but then puts a defender in as a left sided midfielder who was poor against Doncaster and according to MB cost us a goal that day then preceded to play him in the same position where he was dreadful against Blackpool.

Quoted from Grantley

Let's be honest, even though Bignot wasn't getting results, everything he said and was doing to bring the behind the scenes section of the club was correct. That development will now stop and we'll continue to be behind the rest of the league, especially with the youth team.

You know this for a fact do you?

Don't think we will slip back in development terms Slade will have ideas of his own on how to run the club. Bignot might have opened the boards eyes to what is required back stage, the reserves have been very successful that can only be a good thing imho. A good fitness coach is another good idea but you need to balance the books. We can't afford a massive squad of over 30 players and still have a big back room. We all marvelled many players came in January most I have ever known but I thought hang on how the hell do we pay for everyone now seems as most of the players they replaced where not loaned out???  

Quoted from Grantley

Let's be honest, even though Bignot wasn't getting results, everything he said and was doing to bring the behind the scenes section of the club was correct. That development will now stop and we'll continue to be behind the rest of the league, especially with the youth team.

Bignot had a dream, but sadly we can't see into the future to see whether it would have come true or not;
and to many, the risk was too great. Although formations etc have been bizarre, I do feel a little sorry for the guy, who gave up as secure a job as any manger could have, to give it a go.

I haven't looked into this 100%, so I don't know whether we will be having a reserve team or not.
However, 22 players hardly seems enough to do so. If we do have a reserve team, it would be a golden chance to bring on a lot of the youngsters, against the more physical and experienced players who will be in other teams reserves; and really make any youth policy as successful as those in the past.

There's a well documented plan in place, be in league one by the time the new stadium is built. We've heard it several times. Yes teams like Swansea seem to have had a plan of playing good passing football, but I doubt that they planned on being in the premier league when they where in our league playing at the Vetch, which is the position we currently find ourselves in.

For every Southampton and Barcelona who's long term plans have been successful, there's a Newcastle (remember Pardews 7 year contract?) and an Aston Villa. They decided to sign young foreign talent for their first team and develop them. Look how that went.

We are where we are. Let's get behind a plan of a new stadium and league one football and then take it from there.

What Southampton, Ajax, Crewe etc...have delivered is more than just a plan it's a well worked strategy in that they drive income into their clubs by rearing talent and selling it on. They are well placed initially to do this as they are based in large catchments and thus can attract a lot of youngsters without the kids having to spend time away from home. Crewe maybe is a mid sized town but it's close to Stoke, Liverpool and Manchester which provides rich pickings

If you have a strategy you need plans to support it and the plan to get into league 1 and move to PP supports a long term strategy as we then become more attractive to talent from day Hull, Lincoln  and Scunny as well as further afield like Notts etc..

Bignot thought he needed to do it all in one go but could not recognise he needed to deliver a number of plans before he could land a long term strategy, the first of those was stop dicking around with signings for the future and get the best players you can to get you competitive and up asap.........the rest comes later.

I don't think there will ever be a better time than now to start spending a few quid on the structure of training facilities (that are here to stay even after PP is built) and development of new talent. It's not every season a club like ours will get a £1m windfall and allocating some of that could bring windfalls like that it in more often. We get that Bogle money in and there's still battles over a strengthening and conditioning coach. As for prospective signings, they'll look at their daily place of work, ie Cheapside and make up their own minds.

Slade strikes me as the pragmatic type and i doubt he'll be interested in youth development. He's never stayed anywhere too long, perhaps with the exception of Orient. I dunno, maybe his wandering days are over and he's looking to establish himself long term here. He doesn't live too far away by all accounts but i just can't help feeling he's the type that's in it for himself and more bothered about personal glory than long term planning that he may not be around to enjoy the fruits of. I remain skeptical of him but he has a clean sheet for now.

Quoted from Grantley

Let's be honest, even though Bignot wasn't getting results, everything he said and was doing to bring the behind the scenes section of the club was correct. That development will now stop and we'll continue to be behind the rest of the league, especially with the youth team.

What actually HAD he done? I think he had just talked about it but no evidence that Bignot had done anything towards implementing any of it

Quoted from Civvy at last

After six long years in the wilderness we are back in the league. JF is probably petrified of going back there and I can't blame him. He got burnt with Woods and made damn sure it was t going to happen again.  If people want to laugh I really don't give a fat rats t-t.  

This absolutely nails it for me. If he sensed something was horribly wrong then he wasn't going to let it play out just so the sacking looked understandable to people outside of the club.

In general I'm very sceptical of the argument that stability is the key. Stability is great if you're winning and moving in the right direction but if changing a manager or style of play is more likely to improve the fortunes of the club then that's what we should do.

Quoted from Grantley

Let's be honest, even though Bignot wasn't getting results, everything he said and was doing to bring the behind the scenes section of the club was correct. That development will now stop and we'll continue to be behind the rest of the league, especially with the youth team.

I would love to see you justify this one.  Please tell us how you are so sure about this !!!

I posted previously that the revolution of the Youth set up was an excellent idea, however I do not know personally of any club at our level who run a full blown development team between Youth and 1st team levels. Anyone able to enlighten me?

I think doing such a thing would have to be done virtually at the expense of the 1st team unless you have got a mega rich backer who is prepared to fund infrastructure for long term development in addition to keeping the 1st team competitive for the 6-10 years before it becomes sustainable.

Just my opinion, and I would love for it to happen at GTFC, but seems very far removed from reality

We have always had a long term plan,

Plan No 1. To get back into the league .  Done

Plan No 2   Hurst took it with him to Shrewsbury,

Plan No 3   Marcus had one but it was in his head so we lost it when he went,

Plan No 4, Slade is just writing it now.

TBF there is no evidence the development plans for bridging the gap between youth and first team will stop, however not one youngster even got the slightest of sniffs at first team action the last time he was here.

Any Orient fans lurking like to comment on whether any youth players got a chance there? He was there 4 years so should be an indicator.

We will wait ans and see however in due course I would like to hear him set out his views on how we can achieve a more seamless transition from youth to first team.

i am reliably informed that generally slade relied what he inherited and then bought ne wplayers in to improve the 'stock' rather than giving 'da yoof' their chance

Well given that was his longest stint anywhere, I guess we can draw some conclusions,  however somebody possibly the trust board member should pick this up and get some clarity.

I was genuinely excited by the prospect of us developing more home grown players (in the medium term), I hope the issues MB raised about updating the backroom side of the club don't all get swept away by the new broom.