We're out of the EU!

What is a 'Libtard' anyway?

Quoted from arryarryarry

I would be interested to know how you have lost out to EU funding when we will still be members of the EU for at least two more years.

https://www.timeshighereducati.....e-eu-funding-worries

Quoted from Chrisblor

Ire about 'value for money' due to the scandalous increase in fees over the last two decades should be directed towards the political establishment (Labour, Tories & Lib Dems), not Universities, since they're the ones responsible for pulling up the free Higher Education ladder.

And let's not forget that the MPs of every political stripe who voted through the tuition fees legislation pretty much all received free University education themselves, with some of them no doubt also receiving grants to pay their living expenses at the time.

I didn't pay a penny in fees at University and was lucky enough to leave with practically no debt (working through the holidays helped me here). I was debt free following my first full pay packet after University.

My wife, on the other hand, left with tens of thousands in debt, just because she studied a decade later than me. Similarly, her younger sisters have an enormous debt burden hanging over them.

The anti-intellectual bullshite loved by so many of those who voted Leave really beggars belief.

But we've got our country back!  Not sure where we've got it back from though.  

The research funding issue is a real worry for me.  One of the main ways that we'll be able to succeed post Brexit is by investing in our scientific and technology talent, and harnessing their discoveries.  This down turn in funding was predictable but at least GSK has said they will continue to invest in the UK for research.  We need to attract more organisations like this to try and replace the investment we'll lose out on and a result of Brexit.  I'm sure we'll have conflicting views on that but R&D tax breaks are definitely something we need to keep.  I also don't object to a low CT rate if businesses are creating well paid jobs in the UK.

In answer to Chaos' question, I reckon I must be a Libtard.  I read the Guardian, have a degree and think experts should be listened to.

Quoted Text

In recent years the Government has increased the costs and financial requirements for obtaining a student visa, and now mandates an additional 'Immigration Health Surcharge' payment of £150 a year before letting non-EU students into the country. The last couple of years have seen overall non-EU student application figures stagnate as the growth in Chinese applicants year on year has started to stall, and numbers coming to study here from India have totally collapsed by well over 50% since 2011 (source). Before the referendum Universities were already reporting a combined fall of 1% in non-EU applications (source), and anecdotally within my own institution we've noticed a further drop off in applications compared to last year since the Brexit result was confirmed.

Doesn't this all contradict your blameiming of Brexit in these reports that state numbers have been in decline for a few years now?
And what about the restrictions on current non EU students in order to mitigate the effect of having open door to all students within the EU it's about time we had a fairer system which allows university's to choose students on potential not passports.

Quoted Text

It's also farcical that you're still parroting that rubbish about the money we're currently sending to the EU being repurposed for domestic spending.

We pay more to the EU then we get back fact! Leaving would allow us to not only match but increase the amount given to universities.

Quoted from Grim74

Doesn't this all contradict your blameiming of Brexit in these reports that state numbers have been in decline for a few years now?
And what about the restrictions on current non EU students in order to mitigate the effect of having open door to all students within the EU it's about time we had a fairer system which allows university's to choose students on potential not passports.

No it doesn't contradict anything. I quite clearly said in an earlier post that there's been growth in the number of International Students coming to the UK to study, however this growth had been slowing in recent years due to the Government making it harder and more expensive to obtain a visa to study in the UK combined with this country's generally abhorrent attitude towards immigrants. This does not mean numbers of overseas students coming to study here have been in decline before the referendum. Meanwhile, other competitor countries who have made it easier for International students to study there have continued to see increased growth in the number of International students arriving. Clearly Brexit is going to have a further negative impact on International students coming to study in the UK which will likely result in applications from overseas students starting to fall as preliminary surveys suggest 47% of international students would find the UK a less attractive destination for study as a result of Brexit (source).

Suggesting restrictions on the number of overseas students coming here is ridiculous. Like I previously stated, they currently contribute billions to our economy while only costing us a fraction of that in their use of public services. In London alone they provide £2.8 billion a year to our GDP, while only costing us £540 million, a net economic benefit of £2.3 billion (source). In Sheffield a similar study found International students contributed a net benefit of £97.9 million to GDP (source). Why would you impose limits on the number of students coming here to study when the economic benefits they provide us with massively outweigh the cost they impose on the country as immigrants?

Finally, Universities regularly reject applications from International Students on economic grounds. My University makes offers based on a student's academic ability and English language skills. If a student does not meet our stringent entry requirements, they will not be allowed to buy their way in. I don't imagine you're an expert on Tier 4 Student Visas, but if you were you'd realise we already have a strict student immigration policy which only permits students to come and study at British Universities on academic grounds. Why not read how it works yourself - http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Infor.....ity-and-requirements

Quoted from Grim74

We pay more to the EU then we get back fact! Leaving would allow us to not only match but increase the amount given to universities.

There is no chance this Government will increase funding to Universities as a result of leaving the EU. That money has already been promised to about 20 other things, and in any case the slump in economic growth caused by Brexit will likely wipe out the supposed £8 billion a year we'll 'save' from leaving Europe.

But yeah it's all fine isn't it that we've trashed our economy and some of the most lucrative sectors of our economy cos we've GOT OUR COUNTRY BACK right lads?

Quoted from Chrisblor

No it doesn't contradict anything. I quite clearly said in an earlier post that there's been growth in the number of International Students coming to the UK to study, however this growth had been slowing in recent years due to the Government making it harder and more expensive to obtain a visa to study in the UK combined with this country's generally abhorrent attitude towards immigrants. This does not mean numbers of overseas students coming to study here have been in decline before the referendum. Meanwhile, other competitor countries who have made it easier for International students to study there have continued to see increased growth in the number of International students arriving. Clearly Brexit is going to have a further negative impact on International students coming to study in the UK which will likely result in applications from overseas students starting to fall as preliminary surveys suggest 47% of international students would find the UK a less attractive destination for study as a result of Brexit (source).

Suggesting restrictions on the number of overseas students coming here is ridiculous. Like I previously stated, they currently contribute billions to our economy while only costing us a fraction of that in their use of public services. In London alone they provide £2.8 billion a year to our GDP, while only costing us £540 million, a net economic benefit of £2.3 billion (source). In Sheffield a similar study found International students contributed a net benefit of £97.9 million to GDP (source). Why would you impose limits on the number of students coming here to study when the economic benefits they provide us with massively outweigh the cost they impose on the country as immigrants?

Finally, Universities regularly reject applications from International Students on economic grounds. My University makes offers based on a student's academic ability and English language skills. If a student does not meet our stringent entry requirements, they will not be allowed to buy their way in. I don't imagine you're an expert on Tier 4 Student Visas, but if you were you'd realise we already have a strict student immigration policy which only permits students to come and study at British Universities on academic grounds. Why not read how it works yourself - http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Infor.....ity-and-requirements



There is no chance this Government will increase funding to Universities as a result of leaving the EU. That money has already been promised to about 20 other things, and in any case the slump in economic growth caused by Brexit will likely wipe out the supposed £8 billion a year we'll 'save' from leaving Europe.

But yeah it's all fine isn't it that we've trashed our economy and some of the most lucrative sectors of our economy cos we've GOT OUR COUNTRY BACK right lads?

What are you talking about I never suggested restrictions on overseas students at all coming here, I was pointing out the fact that we currently have a system where we have non EU students at a disadvantage when applying for a university place. Maybe a cynic would think that we have made it harder for the non EU students in order to accommodate the open door freedom of movement for all students within the EU, well now we can end this discrimination and have fair and equal fees across the board thanks to the Brexit vote.

And whilst we are talking about fees dont you think it's time we enforced these EU students to actually pay their debts as they currently owe a staggering £1.3billion in British student loans, which has risen from £958million last year, I believe its time custodial sentences where handed out as a deterrent I'm sure  £1.3 billion would help to  keep our university's ticking over.

The slump in economic growth 😂😂 sorry to urine on your bonfire I know it hurts hearing all the good positives news regarding Brexit but the economic facts from the ONS show that growth as shot up.

Quoted from Chrisblor

EU funding is already dropping off because much of that funding is offered for long-term projects and understandably partner institutions in Europe are unwilling to work with researchers from UK Universities since it could result in a situation where funding is reduced or lost once we boot ourselves out of the EU.

In my own institution the starting Professorial salary is about £57k, however not all undergraduate modules are delivered by professors as the majority of their roles are research based. Most teaching at undergrad level is delivered by 'Lecturers' (40k a year), 'Teaching Associates' (29k a year) and even PhD students on casual contracts (£10 an hour or so). Across the University sector we've seen a real terms decline in pay of 14.5% since 2009, so while you might see headlines about Vice Chancellors receiving giant pay rises, that's certainly not the case for the majority of professional and academic staff responsible for teaching and looking after university students. In terms of teaching, students at Universities are expected to carry out their own independent learning. Professors and other teaching staff are not there to promote rote learning for students to regurgitate in exams - they are there to guide students through the course and provide office hours to assist students who need extra support.

Ire about 'value for money' due to the scandalous increase in fees over the last two decades should be directed towards the political establishment (Labour, Tories & Lib Dems), not Universities, since they're the ones responsible for pulling up the free Higher Education ladder.

So in effect, the money has dropped out of long term research projects funded by the EU which gets that money from the UK. What you need to do is petition the UK government to redirect the funding you lost by taking that cost out of the money we pay to the EU on a daily basis.

The wage structure you list is one reason you are losing money starting at £57K,  lecturers on £40K, I was offered a teaching role at a college, as I am trained to train adults, for about £20K on a zero hour contract, I can understand an increase of maybe £10k on that at a push but £40K.

What is a Teaching Associate? as teaching assistants in schools are on between £10-15K.

I understand the role of student at Uni and that most of the work is self study and research. My daughter rarely needed any help or guidance, it was the professor who was the issue. His instructions were vague and he overloaded her work compared to the others. When he gave a lecture my daughter and others asked questions to clarify the direction of research and he belittled them in front of everyone. On another occasion he made a flippant remark that upset her.

In my eyes he didn't act professionally and from what my daughter says about Professors and the like they think they are something special, and paid well above what they are worth. Value for money, you are paying for Premiership and getting non league. My daughter got a 2.1 and was a few points off a first, with proper guidance and instructions she would have got a first.

Government at the time was the one who pulled up the free education ladder but it is the Universities who are charging the max amount when they didn't need to. Also those fees are going up again, pricing out those who don't qualify for benefits.

I don't disagree with you about the standard of teaching in Universities although it's been a while since I was there.  To me the salaries seem quite low actually for someone with that level of knowledge and experience.  

I doubt the government will have the money to underpin the research which will be a shame as I stated earlier.  If the economy contracts in the short term, the money we pay to the EU will be pretty much gone anyway and I suspect they'll have bigger problems.  In the longer term who knows but a short term fall off of funding could lead to some of the top professors moving abroad.

Quoted from Marinerz93

So in effect, the money has dropped out of long term research projects funded by the EU which gets that money from the UK. What you need to do is petition the UK government to redirect the funding you lost by taking that cost out of the money we pay to the EU on a daily basis.

The wage structure you list is one reason you are losing money starting at £57K,  lecturers on £40K, I was offered a teaching role at a college, as I am trained to train adults, for about £20K on a zero hour contract, I can understand an increase of maybe £10k on that at a push but £40K.

What is a Teaching Associate? as teaching assistants in schools are on between £10-15K.

I understand the role of student at Uni and that most of the work is self study and research. My daughter rarely needed any help or guidance, it was the professor who was the issue. His instructions were vague and he overloaded her work compared to the others. When he gave a lecture my daughter and others asked questions to clarify the direction of research and he belittled them in front of everyone. On another occasion he made a flippant remark that upset her.

In my eyes he didn't act professionally and from what my daughter says about Professors and the like they think they are something special, and paid well above what they are worth. Value for money, you are paying for Premiership and getting non league. My daughter got a 2.1 and was a few points off a first, with proper guidance and instructions she would have got a first.

Government at the time was the one who pulled up the free education ladder but it is the Universities who are charging the max amount when they didn't need to. Also those fees are going up again, pricing out those who don't qualify for benefits.

The money we send to the EU will be re-directed into things like the NHS and offering tax breaks to companies to try and get them to stay here after we invoke article 50. Right now approximately £800m a year is provided by the EU to Universities for research (for reference our own Government spends £5.2 billion a year on research). Of course Universities constantly lobby Government for more research funding, but the Tories aren't going to say 'oh here's an extra £800m a year to make up for all that money you've lost now we've left the EU'.

My University is not 'losing money' (yet anyway - Brexit may change that), in recent years it has been making a comfortable annual surplus. It has however hugely slashed staff costs from approximately 60% of it's gross income five years ago to 52% today. The money saved on staffing has been spent on large capital projects (new buildings / campus infrastructure) and a similar trend has occurred across the whole sector. Academic staff in Universities are experts in their fields and incredibly experienced - their pay reflects this and I'm not sure why you feel they are overpaid. A Teaching Associate delivers Undergraduate level seminars / tutorials / lectures etc - far beyond the scope of a school teaching assistant.

I'm sorry to hear your daughter had a bad experience with her Professor. It's likely too late now, but there are recognised complaint channels for students to complain about the conduct of University staff. If your daughter was specifically required to carry out extra work and belittled in front of an audience I can't see why a complaint wouldn't have been upheld. In terms of their value, professors are remunerated based on the money they bring in to Universities through their research, like I said earlier teaching only forms a small part of their job.

Universities at the end of the day are businesses and will charge students as much as they are allowed to by the Government. Yes, the current system is unfair to poorer students, and the grants and loans now available are very poor indeed. Most Universities do however offer busaries to applicants from low-income households, but it's really up to the Government to restructure the way Higher Education is funded if they want to make degree level study more accessible to all.