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Jeremy Corbyn

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codcheeky
July 16, 2015, 10:48pm
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Frightening the Blairite career politicians by talking a bit of sense and actually wanting to make the country more equal
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Maringer
July 17, 2015, 8:25am
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Well, Corbyn originally entered the leadership contest as a stalking horse to mix things up a bit, but he's the only one of the candidates not tarred by New Labour in some way (Kendall doesn't really count because she's clearly a closet Tory) and you do at least get the feeling he's a proper person with no doubt about his principles.

The funny thing is that he's portrayed as a left-wing fanatic by the (mostly right-wing) media, but if you actually look at his record, he's been right about pretty much everything he's campaigned for during his long career! He's not in it for the power or the glory, that's for sure. Apparently a very self-effacing man.

I think the problem is that he probably wouldn't be able to succeed as leader of the Labour party for a number of reasons. He's not slick with the media as successful modern politicians need to be, he's clearly not spent his career trying to network and toady up to backers like most modern politicians and he's getting on a bit as well. The man actually has some substance to him which, looking at most modern politicians of all stripes, seems to be an unusual trait! Too much in his record for the right-wing press to attack - I can only imagine some of the mendacious bullshit they would print about him. Miliband was mildly left-wing though with centrist policies and they were printing a lie a day in the run up to the last election.

Hopefully Corbyn will do well enough in the contest to get rid of the appalling Kendall and will drag the Overton Window of the Labour party back leftwards so that Burnham or Cooper can take the leadership and actually go for the moderate policies which benefit the whole of the country instead of following the Tories rightwards which would destroy any semblance of equality in the country.
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Grim74
July 17, 2015, 9:24am
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What a comical farce the Labour Party has fast become, they bring in this nutcase socialist as a token leftist to widen the debate and now he's surging ahead as the true face of labour   clueless!

I have to agree with Trisram Hunt that Labour could (will be in my opinion) be the new Woolworths!
Until these muppets get a grip of reality and realise why they lost the election they will continue their slide to extinction.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
July 17, 2015, 9:32am
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Nutcase socialist? Do tell more.

The wiki page is a decent enough run down of his various causes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn

Don't see anything nutty there myself.

Of course, I don't doubt you're just believing everything you're told by the Telegraph/Mail/Times/Express (delete as applicable). Other than casting wild aspersions around about him, I've not seen the right wing media come up with stuff which indicates he's anything more than a sensible socialist.
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Grim74
July 17, 2015, 2:12pm
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Quoted from Maringer
Nutcase socialist? Do tell more.

The wiki page is a decent enough run down of his various causes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn

Don't see anything nutty there myself.

Of course, I don't doubt you're just believing everything you're told by the Telegraph/Mail/Times/Express (delete as applicable). Other than casting wild aspersions around about him, I've not seen the right wing media come up with stuff which indicates he's anything more than a sensible socialist.


Yea and the wiki page doesn't mention Vladimir Lenin being nutty!

Wild aspersions? Like the fact he's on record as a terrorist sympathiser -
http://www.politico.eu/article/labour-hamas-London-ira/

His Lenin views are totally of of touch with a modern society and the aspirations of working people, a socialist nutcase of the uppermost, the man is a reincarnated Micheal Foot dinosaur.

If he gets the vote and I pray he does then Labour will capitulate, remember this is the man who rebelled against his own party 533 times since they came to power in 1997, he would cause splits right through the party he would cause mayhem.

Right I'm of to cast my vote .........£3.00


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Maringer
July 17, 2015, 3:33pm
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Hmmm. Rather short on evidence. Again. It's becoming a bit of a habit for you, isn't it?

Comparing Lenin (communist revolutionary) to Corbyn (moderate socialist and lifelong Labour party member) is one of the most bizarre things I've seen for some time. Comical, actually.

Amusing hit piece posted from Politico, American right-wing site. Lots of insinuation, not much fact in there.

Looking at the record, you'll note that Corbyn has been a supporter of Palestinian causes for a long time (not surprising when you consider that there are literally millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps around the middle east which have been established for many decades), so it's not surprising he's had some association with Hamas.

He also met with Sinn Fein in the past in an attempt to advance the peace process. No doubt you think this is awful as well.

As regards the vexed question of Israel/Palestine, it is often difficult to pick out what is true or not. The Israeli propaganda machine is pretty powerful (see the Politico piece) and I'd imagine the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. No doubt which side Corbyn is leaning towards. Will be interesting to see what happens at the hustings on Monday as it wouldn't surprise me to see plenty of aggressive questions being sent his way. Lets see how he deals with them.

It's also amusing that you're criticising him for going against the whip on numerous occasions as if that's a bad thing. If you don't agree with a policy, why should you vote in support of it? Much more laudable than doing what you're told just to advance your career.

Considering your views about Blair, it's also amusing that you're so much against Corbyn as he voted against the Iraq (and every other) War started by the Labour government - against the party line you're criticising him for not toeing!

Anyway, heading off for the weekend now.
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AdamHaddock
July 17, 2015, 5:52pm

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A couple of weeks ago Corbyn was 20/1 with some bookies now he's third favourite at 7/2

Do you think he actually entered the contest as a serious candidate or just to stir things up and stop others trying to out-tory each other


[img]https://images.app.goo.gl/bymuz36koLHofSn79[/img]
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ginnywings
July 17, 2015, 8:45pm

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I like Corbyn and welcome any move back to the left and away from the centre ground most modern career politicians tread. Unfortunately, he would get slaughtered by the press in the same way Michael Foot did, which is a pity.

The country is full of people who are scared of the left because the right wing press tell them to be. I can't understand why working people are so scared of a party that represents them and without whom, they'd be a lot worse off. The NHS wouldn't exist without socialism and we'd still be living in some kind of cap doffing Victorian hell.
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Grim74
July 17, 2015, 11:06pm
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Quoted from Maringer
Hmmm. Rather short on evidence. Again. It's becoming a bit of a habit for you, isn't it?

Comparing Lenin (communist revolutionary) to Corbyn (moderate socialist and lifelong Labour party member) is one of the most bizarre things I've seen for some time. Comical, actually.

Amusing hit piece posted from Politico, American right-wing site. Lots of insinuation, not much fact in there.

Looking at the record, you'll note that Corbyn has been a supporter of Palestinian causes for a long time (not surprising when you consider that there are literally millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps around the middle east which have been established for many decades), so it's not surprising he's had some association with Hamas.

He also met with Sinn Fein in the past in an attempt to advance the peace process. No doubt you think this is awful as well.

As regards the vexed question of Israel/Palestine, it is often difficult to pick out what is true or not. The Israeli propaganda machine is pretty powerful (see the Politico piece) and I'd imagine the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. No doubt which side Corbyn is leaning towards. Will be interesting to see what happens at the hustings on Monday as it wouldn't surprise me to see plenty of aggressive questions being sent his way. Lets see how he deals with them.

It's also amusing that you're criticising him for going against the whip on numerous occasions as if that's a bad thing. If you don't agree with a policy, why should you vote in support of it? Much more laudable than doing what you're told just to advance your career.

Considering your views about Blair, it's also amusing that you're so much against Corbyn as he voted against the Iraq (and every other) War started by the Labour government - against the party line you're criticising him for not toeing!

Anyway, heading off for the weekend now.


'Short on evidence'  Who do you think you are, the fishy forum judge?

Is this all because I mocked your non biased evidence academic research  
Come on Maringer you was fair game, do you really expect me to post links to back up every single issue that I comment on, really are you mad?
Besides its common knowledge Corbyn is a serial terrorist sympathiser, but anyway read this, I do hope it's not to biased straight from the yogurt knitters central
http://leftfootforward.org/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-jeremy-corbyn/

I would go as far as to say he's a traitor but that's just my opinion. ...No link required!

There is a thin line between what amounts to communism and socialism depending on definitions, but one thing they most certainly have in common is failure, and Mr Corbyn the Lennin hat wearing, Morning Star (commi rag) columnist, champion of lost causes, can relate to both in abundance whilst living in a free market country.

I'm not going to get into your tangent on the old Palestine v Israel who's right and who's wrong debate, the bottom line is Corbyn got into bed with a terrorist organisation, and then unashamedly invited them to parliament - did you read the link?  I told you he was nuts.
Maybe he forgot Hezbollah were accused of mass war crimes by amnesty international, a charity he is a member off.

Regarding Sinn Fein it's also public knowledge that the Corbyn  caused outrage by inviting them along with Gerry Adams to the commons, this was just weeks after the murdering scumbags tried to bomb Thatcher and her cabinet.

He then went on to observe a minutes silence for IRA scum that had been killed by our crack troops,  they were killed whilst cowardly setting more bombs off in their attempt to kill more innocent people, but Corbyn the traitor during a troops out meeting stood there to 'honour' the eight.

Can you imagine what he would do with the Falklands? ....... No need to answer enough said enjoy your weekend.


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Grim74
July 19, 2015, 8:59pm
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Quoted from ginnywings
I like Corbyn and welcome any move back to the left and away from the centre ground most modern career politicians tread. Unfortunately, he would get slaughtered by the press in the same way Michael Foot did, which is a pity.

The country is full of people who are scared of the left because the right wing press tell them to be. I can't understand why working people are so scared of a party that represents them and without whom, they'd be a lot worse off. The NHS wouldn't exist without socialism and we'd still be living in some kind of cap doffing Victorian hell.


"I can't  understand why working people are so scared of a party that represents them and without whom, they'd be a lot worse off"

Labour haven't represented the working class for a long time and it's about time the left woke up and accepted this reality, instead of putting the blame on  Murdoch and co, as if they have brainwashed the weak minded! the arrogance from the left is outstanding.

Labour is still controlled by the unions whose ideology based on a working class of manual labours has been out of date for years, most workers today will see themselves as middle class or at least aiming for that.

People want better for themselves a nice car, nice house, good school for the kids, with a nice holiday now and then , but labour are against all this their policies are based on class warfare and they seek to punish success.

"The NHS wouldn't exist without socialism"

The NHS is one big drain it doesn't matter how much money gets thrown at it it will continue to drain, totally inefficient costing every man woman and child over £2000 -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_(England)

The Guardian will tell you it's the envy of the world but it's not even ranked in the top 10 of 33 European healthcare systems - http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/index.php?Itemid=55
If it was that good why as no other country in the world thought it a good idea to copy us?
It's about time we got rid of this burden and started again.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
July 19, 2015, 10:59pm
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Actually, Murdoch and Co are a great deal to blame for the poor performance of the Labour party at the last election (along with poor leadership over the past 5 years).

Here's an mildly interesting report which investigated why people who voted Labour in 2010 didn't (in general) in 2015:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/271940748/Listening-to-Labour-s-Lost-Labour-Voters-bbm-Research-July-2015

Some of the 10 points in that report have partial basis in fact (weak Leadership for example), but much of it is utter nonsense which shows people just believe what they are told by the media. Notably, most of these people interviewed believed the financial crash was caused by overspending by the Labour government and that the coalition had done a good job with the economy. The idea that the crash was caused by overspending is simply a complete and utter lie promulgated by the Tories (and LibDem lackeys) and their captive media yet is now taken as fact by too many ill-informed people. Still can't get my head around the fact that Labour didn't point out from the off it was nonsense. Almost as if they wanted to lose. Baffling. As I've noted in the past in many threads on this board, Osborne is economically illiterate which is why the recovery has been the worst on record - it's only the collapse in oil prices which reduced inflation to zero which saved him this last time. Can he continue to be so lucky when so many of his policies are so destructive? I tend to doubt it. The latest budget was shockingly bad and will lead to great hardship amongst the young and poor. Obviously too many "All Right Jacks" out there to be bothered about this, unfortunately. You're one of 'em.

Many of the other points show that the respondents have taken in the right-wing propaganda on subjects such as immigration, welfare, Labour being anti-business and the like. Most are easily disprovable if the data is actually examined.

I tell you what, you don't half talk some bullshit a lot of the time:

Quoted Text
People want better for themselves a nice car, nice house, good school for the kids, with a nice holiday now and then , but labour are against all this their policies are based on class warfare and they seek to punish success.


Yeah, I distinctly remember being worried that the Labour party policies of being against "all this kind of thing". You're absolutely flipping crackers if you actually believe what you typed there. The class warfare is being carried out by the Tories as the latest budget shows:

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/.....arning-12000-a-year/

Look at that chart from the IFS - the budget implies huge cuts in income (after all benefits are taken into account) for the poorer people in our society. How can this be anything but class warfare, especially when it comes at the same time as Osborne cutting inheritance tax so the wealthiest 6% can pass on more money to their already privileged offspring?

An amusing rant from you about the NHS. You really do believe everything you are told by the Tories, don't you?

The NHS was the first major Nationalised Healthcare system in the world and its success led many countries to set up their own equivalents (though not all use the same operational system). Trying to ignore this fact is both perverse and dishonest.

However, I do find it amusing that you've hoisted yourself on your own petard with the linked report about how the NHS isn't even among the top ten systems in Europe. Here's a useful link which will go some way to explaining this fact to you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_%28PPP%29_per_capita

Pretty much all of those European countries appearing slightly higher in the ratings than the NHS spend more money per capita on healthcare than the NHS. All but Norway (can't count Luxembourg as a proper country as it is a crooked tax haven with a population less than Sheffield!) spend a higher percentage of their GDP on healthcare than the UK. Note that Norway spend a vast amount more per capita on healthcare than the UK as well - over 65% more by those figures. Those crazy, healthy, Nordic socialists, eh?

The Tory wet dream is of a US-style system with private healthcare and insurance. Look where the US system appears in both expenditure and the efficacy ratings and any sane person will see that this is not something to be desired.
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jock dock tower
July 20, 2015, 7:06pm
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Grim 74, are you the armed wing of UKIP?


No attempt at ethical or social seduction can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred of the Tory party. So far as I'm concerned they're lower than vermin. Aneurin Bevan.
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HackneyHaddock
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I hope Corbyn wins.  But I am a Tory.
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Grim74
July 21, 2015, 12:37am
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Quoted from Maringer
Actually, Murdoch and Co are a great deal to blame for the poor performance of the Labour party at the last election (along with poor leadership over the past 5 years).

Here's an mildly interesting report which investigated why people who voted Labour in 2010 didn't (in general) in 2015:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/271940748/Listening-to-Labour-s-Lost-Labour-Voters-bbm-Research-July-2015

Some of the 10 points in that report have partial basis in fact (weak Leadership for example), but much of it is utter nonsense which shows people just believe what they are told by the media. Notably, most of these people interviewed believed the financial crash was caused by overspending by the Labour government and that the coalition had done a good job with the economy. The idea that the crash was caused by overspending is simply a complete and utter lie promulgated by the Tories (and LibDem lackeys) and their captive media yet is now taken as fact by too many ill-informed people. Still can't get my head around the fact that Labour didn't point out from the off it was nonsense. Almost as if they wanted to lose. Baffling. As I've noted in the past in many threads on this board, Osborne is economically illiterate which is why the recovery has been the worst on record - it's only the collapse in oil prices which reduced inflation to zero which saved him this last time. Can he continue to be so lucky when so many of his policies are so destructive? I tend to doubt it. The latest budget was shockingly bad and will lead to great hardship amongst the young and poor. Obviously too many "All Right Jacks" out there to be bothered about this, unfortunately. You're one of 'em.

Many of the other points show that the respondents have taken in the right-wing propaganda on subjects such as immigration, welfare, Labour being anti-business and the like. Most are easily disprovable if the data is actually examined.

I tell you what, you don't half talk some bullshit a lot of the time:



Yeah, I distinctly remember being worried that the Labour party policies of being against "all this kind of thing". You're absolutely flipping crackers if you actually believe what you typed there. The class warfare is being carried out by the Tories as the latest budget shows:

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/.....arning-12000-a-year/

Look at that chart from the IFS - the budget implies huge cuts in income (after all benefits are taken into account) for the poorer people in our society. How can this be anything but class warfare, especially when it comes at the same time as Osborne cutting inheritance tax so the wealthiest 6% can pass on more money to their already privileged offspring?

An amusing rant from you about the NHS. You really do believe everything you are told by the Tories, don't you?

The NHS was the first major Nationalised Healthcare system in the world and its success led many countries to set up their own equivalents (though not all use the same operational system). Trying to ignore this fact is both perverse and dishonest.

However, I do find it amusing that you've hoisted yourself on your own petard with the linked report about how the NHS isn't even among the top ten systems in Europe. Here's a useful link which will go some way to explaining this fact to you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_%28PPP%29_per_capita

Pretty much all of those European countries appearing slightly higher in the ratings than the NHS spend more money per capita on healthcare than the NHS. All but Norway (can't count Luxembourg as a proper country as it is a crooked tax haven with a population less than Sheffield!) spend a higher percentage of their GDP on healthcare than the UK. Note that Norway spend a vast amount more per capita on healthcare than the UK as well - over 65% more by those figures. Those crazy, healthy, Nordic socialists, eh?

The Tory wet dream is of a US-style system with private healthcare and insurance. Look where the US system appears in both expenditure and the efficacy ratings and any sane person will see that this is not something to be desired.


Interesting report there shame I couldn't get past page 3 because of the dam advert anyway  'no excrement with the weak leader' but I don't necessarily think people rightly or wrongly blame Brown for the crash, as in the link it does says that the people agreed the banks had played a part,  but I do think labour taking our debt up to £500 million just before the crash certainly didn't help our cause,
The other stand out reason for people not wanting to vote labour in the report that you didn't mention was that labour appeared to be anti business and against those who where making something of their lives, concentrating instead on the state subsidised and this is what I keep banging on about.

It seems a bit sour grapes with you and the good work Osbournes doing we have a growing economy, wages rising, record low inflation, record employment, well if that's all about luck then keep touching  wood George because it's working.

As for the budget Jesus! You take some pleasing  don't you, you sound like a right bleeding heart liberal yes I did read your rant on the other thread it took me a few days mind, the only time you gave them an ounce of credit on a policy was when you claimed it was nicked of the labour, like I said sour grapes.
It was no surprise in your cherry picked rant that you failed to mention tax free earnings to £11000, raised the level where 40% tax kicks in, a tax increase for those earning over £100,000, introduced a scheme for 3 million high quality apprentices,homes worth up to £1m exempt from inheritance tax to replace labours ill l thought spiteful mansion tax,  £5 billion to be gained by tax avoidance by 2018 and More support for the armed forces.

Regarding the 18-21 year olds I understand they will have to earn or learn to receive there benefits so if thats the case then another tick in the box from me, I just hope this includes the - have a baby get a house teens, we might then start to see a bit more responsibility from the parents.
Not going to go on about the benefits cap but totally reasonable, I want to live in a country where nobody is better off on benefits, a country where aspiration is rewarded not despised and getting back to your link this is what the people voted for and this is what we are getting.

Just one final point on the budget regarding benefits being stopped after the 2nd child, how can anyone in the right mind disagree with this? Why should we the taxpayer have to pay for families that want to churn them out? Again this is where responsibility will have to come in to play, I was open mouthed listening to the wannabe labour clowns on TV yesterday who are against this policy, they are so out of touch it's unreal  

During the past five years Labour have opposed every single reform to welfare which helped people get back to work and end the something for nothing culture, but now at least things seem to be changing after last nights vote, this could be the start of a change in direction the party desperately need.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
July 21, 2015, 9:05am
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Didn't have any problems with that link myself? Perhaps you need a different adblocker on your browser?

Regarding your comments about the Labour party taking debt up to £500 million, I assume you mean something different there or there has been a typo because that's a drop in the ocean of the economy? As I noted in my posts in the General Election thread, up to the point where the economic crash occurred in 2007, the debt to GDP ratio was lower under the Labour government than was inherited in 1997 and this despite the fact that there had been considerable investment in schools and hospitals and wages had been increased. The debt ratio for the UK was lower than all of the other G7 countries as well (even if you include the deferred debt from the stupid PFI schemes). Brown wasn't profligate - it's simply not true. Any voter who believed this was misinformed.

I've never quite understood this stuff about the 'New Labour' government or even the Miliband bunch as being 'anti-business'. They didn't raise corporation tax (Osborne is currently engaged in a race to the bottom by cutting it), the New Labour business policies, especially, allowed the financial sector to balloon to ridiculous levels with enormous borrowing by business which ultimately led to the devastating crash back in 2007/08. What is anti business there, I wonder? The Telegraph periodically (before elections) publishes its letters from 'business leaders' (i.e. Conservative Party donors) warning about how terrible the Labour party are. The especially amusing one this time was the letter from "5,000 small businesses" which was actually organised by the Conservative party itself though the report made no mention of this! Absolutely shameful propaganda. Fundamentally, I think the issue is that any support for Unions is seen as anti-business which is utter nonsense of course. The latest attacks on Unions with more punitive legislation come at a time when the level of industrial action is at a historical low - virtually no strikes going on at all so, as with so much from this government, it's just another ideological attack.

I do have to laugh when you praise Osborne. As I've noted elsewhere, he inherited an economy with growth of around 2% following a recession and his austerity led us to the brink of a double-dip recession. We've had the weakest recovery from a recession on record, real wages aren't above levels from 2007 yet (pretty much unheard of in economic history). He borrowed more in 5 years than every Labour government, ever, oversaw a doubling of the national debt (not entirely his fault though his policies were dire) and utterly failed in his plans to eliminate the deficit. He managed to cut the deficit by around half which was actually pretty much what was planned by Brown in his last election! Difference was, of course, that the front loading of austerity has led to the loss of several percent of growth (at the very least). That's something we'll never get back and has cost thousands of pounds for every man, woman and child in the country.

The inflation target is 2% for a very good reason economically so lauding 0% inflation is preposterous (and on the borderline of damaging deflation) and it is down almost entirely to the fall in oil prices which Osborne had absolutely nothing to do with! It's like claiming credit for it being a warm day!

The increase in employment is a good thing to some degree but unfortunately to many of them are not good jobs. A huge rise in the numbers of people in part-time work who want more, underemployment is rife and productivity continues to fall. As noted, wage growth is pretty much non-existent which isn't too surprising when you consider the continued pay freezes on public sector workers. Private sector and public sector wages are linked closely due to the way that the market works so deliberately suppressing one directly affects the other.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Osborne is an economically inept chancellor. Politically astute, no doubt, but to the overall detriment of the country.

Osborne's latest 'emergency' budget was, unsurprisingly, regressive hitting the poorest hardest and giving away to the wealthier of society. You're lauding the rise of the inheritance tax level, something which will benefit the children of just the richest few percent of the population whilst praising cuts which will affect the poorest of workers. Note that many people in work will be worse off under this latest bill. It's all very well and good praising the rise in tax thresholds but, as the IFS noted, the people who benefit most from this aren't the lowest paid, but the wealthy. The associated cuts to tax credits and housing benefits mean that the poorest are worse off. As I note so often, we're the 6th wealthiest country in the world, but you're cheering on policies which impoverish the poor whilst transferring wealth to the better off.

You seem very confused about what the proposed mansion tax was as you're comparing it to inheritance tax? They are entirely different things. A mansion tax was fundamentally a graduated property tax which is actually a very good idea though the particular implementation was a poor idea. Much better to instigate a graduated property tax as found in most developed countries.

The apprentice thing is an amusing one. The funding plans for this are a bit wavy but answer me this, the 3 million number would indicate that around 1 in 10 of the workforce will be in an apprenticeship in the next 5 years. Is this in any way believable? Where are you going to find enough trainers to work with these apprentices? The numbers don't make one jot of sense. Lots of shelf-stacking 'apprenticeships' coming up, I expect. What are the chances that the 'apprenticeships' also come with low levels of wages, eh? Pretty high.

The plans for recouping money from tax avoidance and evasion are ambitious and, frankly, unlikely to come to fruition. Amongst the other cuts to goverment services, HMRC has been hacked right back and it seems improbable that they will have the resources or the expertise to get anywhere near the £5 billion figure in the budget. Time will tell, but don't be surprised if this doesn't materialise. The number of workers at HMRC have been cut by 40% over the past 10 years. Doesn't seem likely to me that cuts in levels such as this can be sustainable.

The rest of your post is just the usual Tory stuff about 'shirkers vs workers'. You seem to imagine that every young person that needs assistance with housing is slacking off or deliberately has kids just to get a home. As with all of these stories you read in the press, they are the exceptions rather than the rule. Sweeping generalisations in the assumptions about the young which also ignores the fact that youth unemployment is 3 times higher than the rate for the general population! Not by choice, most of the time.

As for the point about removing benefits after the second child, please note that we have a severely aging population. The baby boomers are retiring now and the increase in expected lifespan due to improved health and medicine means somebody is going to need to be looking after them and earning taxes to pay for their pensions. If you try to persuade UK citizens to have fewer children, this implies greater immigration in the future to support the elderly both financially and socially. I'm sure you're all for that.
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Manchester Mariner
July 21, 2015, 10:00am

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I see that all the Labour leadership candidates apart from Corbyn abstained from the welfare bill vote. Absolutely gutless bunch of directionless, beige party careerists. What even is the point of them being there if they are going to abstain?

Obviously I'm behind Corbyn but then again I am a bit of a commie basterd.


"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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Maringer
July 21, 2015, 10:14am
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Yep. I doubt you would find many Labour Party supporters who would agree with this 'Welfare' bill so heaven only knows why the party line was to abstain in the first place or why all of them wouldn't go against the whip to oppose it regardless.

Here's a press release from Frank Field, Cameron's former 'poverty tsar' which shows some costing of how much hardship this will cause to millions in the country:

http://www.frankfield.co.uk/latest-news/press-releases/news.aspx?p=1021009

Plenty of losses there but very shocking to see that over half a million of the poorest working families will effectively be facing a nominal tax rate of 48% due to the cuts in tax credits. Remarkable that anybody can defend this.
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Chrisblor
July 21, 2015, 2:57pm

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Quoted from Maringer
Plenty of losses there but very shocking to see that over half a million of the poorest working families will effectively be facing a nominal tax rate of 48% due to the cuts in tax credits. Remarkable that anybody can defend this.


People defend it because they're stupid girl privates who anecdotally hear about one or two examples of people playing the system and think that the sensible and proportioned response is to cut benefits for everyone - the majority of which are claimed legitimally by the so called 'hardworking families' the Tory party claim to represent. The flipping cheek of them to try and rebrand themselves recently as 'The Workers Party' is beyond measure.

I absolutely abhor anyone who votes Tory and sticks up for their inexcusable attacks on society's most vulnerable. The millions of working & middle class idiots who vote for them in their droves because they've got a mortgage and think they're doing "alright" are going to be in for a big shock when Gideon runs out of ways to keep the interest rates down.


gary jones
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July 23, 2015, 12:36am

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I hope Corbyn wins.  But I am a Tory.


No excrement.
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grimps
July 23, 2015, 2:30pm
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The problem with Lefties is they actually believe everyone else thinks the same as they do.
Time and time again Leftie candidates have been whalloped in elections yet they still cant understand why they lost.
Every man and his dog said that Ed was divvy and would never be elected as PM , they wouldnt listen same as they are not listening now.
It's fanctastic watching these idiots continue to make total fools of themselves and
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Maringer
July 23, 2015, 3:21pm
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Wrong. We don't think everybody thinks the same way that we do, though I personally despair at how self-centred and thoughtless lots of people can be.

But hey, if you're happy with hundreds of thousands of children being made homeless due to the latest Tory benefit cuts, more power to you.

The DWP reckons 'just' 330,000 children will be affected by the cap but these numbers don't seem to add up:

https://speye.wordpress.com/20.....-not-scaremongering/
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grimps
July 23, 2015, 9:39pm
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Hundreds of thousands homeless ??
Ha ha this is why nobody takes any notice of you idiots on the left
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Grim74
July 23, 2015, 9:52pm
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Quoted from Maringer
Wrong. We don't think everybody thinks the same way that we do, though I personally despair at how self-centred and thoughtless lots of people can be.

But hey, if you're happy with hundreds of thousands of children being made homeless due to the latest Tory benefit cuts, more power to you.

The DWP reckons 'just' 330,000 children will be affected by the cap but these numbers don't seem to add up:

https://speye.wordpress.com/20.....-not-scaremongering/


Now I know you are taking the urine! This Joe Halewood is an anti government, professional campaigning yogurt knitter! Whose done is calculations on the back of the Guardian, How can you take anything he says as face value? Certainly not factual dare I say.

I'm sick of hearing all this liberal bleating crap , Please correct me if I'm wrong but are we saying that an average family in Grimsby can ONLY claim up to £20000 in benefits to cover the rent costs to feed and clothe the kids etc???
Is this right? (Not to include council tax that's still thrown in free, free school dinners, and many more)

How many working family's in this town don't get anything like this? which is the equivalent to a salary of about £25000 pre tax,!!
I must be missing something il apologise now then because this can't be right £25000 FFS and the welfare bleaters are in uproar.

I've said before we shouldn't have any situation where it pays to be financially better off on benefits, so if the good honest working people out there on minimum wage are not dropping there kids off at the Barbados charity shop just yet,  then I'm sure we need not to worry about the poor welfare claimants.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Grim74
July 23, 2015, 11:05pm
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Quoted from Maringer
Didn't have any problems with that link myself? Perhaps you need a different adblocker on your browser?

Regarding your comments about the Labour party taking debt up to £500 million, I assume you mean something different there or there has been a typo because that's a drop in the ocean of the economy? As I noted in my posts in the General Election thread, up to the point where the economic crash occurred in 2007, the debt to GDP ratio was lower under the Labour government than was inherited in 1997 and this despite the fact that there had been considerable investment in schools and hospitals and wages had been increased. The debt ratio for the UK was lower than all of the other G7 countries as well (even if you include the deferred debt from the stupid PFI schemes). Brown wasn't profligate - it's simply not true. Any voter who believed this was misinformed.

I've never quite understood this stuff about the 'New Labour' government or even the Miliband bunch as being 'anti-business'. They didn't raise corporation tax (Osborne is currently engaged in a race to the bottom by cutting it), the New Labour business policies, especially, allowed the financial sector to balloon to ridiculous levels with enormous borrowing by business which ultimately led to the devastating crash back in 2007/08. What is anti business there, I wonder? The Telegraph periodically (before elections) publishes its letters from 'business leaders' (i.e. Conservative Party donors) warning about how terrible the Labour party are. The especially amusing one this time was the letter from "5,000 small businesses" which was actually organised by the Conservative party itself though the report made no mention of this! Absolutely shameful propaganda. Fundamentally, I think the issue is that any support for Unions is seen as anti-business which is utter nonsense of course. The latest attacks on Unions with more punitive legislation come at a time when the level of industrial action is at a historical low - virtually no strikes going on at all so, as with so much from this government, it's just another ideological attack.

I do have to laugh when you praise Osborne. As I've noted elsewhere, he inherited an economy with growth of around 2% following a recession and his austerity led us to the brink of a double-dip recession. We've had the weakest recovery from a recession on record, real wages aren't above levels from 2007 yet (pretty much unheard of in economic history). He borrowed more in 5 years than every Labour government, ever, oversaw a doubling of the national debt (not entirely his fault though his policies were dire) and utterly failed in his plans to eliminate the deficit. He managed to cut the deficit by around half which was actually pretty much what was planned by Brown in his last election! Difference was, of course, that the front loading of austerity has led to the loss of several percent of growth (at the very least). That's something we'll never get back and has cost thousands of pounds for every man, woman and child in the country.

The inflation target is 2% for a very good reason economically so lauding 0% inflation is preposterous (and on the borderline of damaging deflation) and it is down almost entirely to the fall in oil prices which Osborne had absolutely nothing to do with! It's like claiming credit for it being a warm day!

The increase in employment is a good thing to some degree but unfortunately to many of them are not good jobs. A huge rise in the numbers of people in part-time work who want more, underemployment is rife and productivity continues to fall. As noted, wage growth is pretty much non-existent which isn't too surprising when you consider the continued pay freezes on public sector workers. Private sector and public sector wages are linked closely due to the way that the market works so deliberately suppressing one directly affects the other.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Osborne is an economically inept chancellor. Politically astute, no doubt, but to the overall detriment of the country.

Osborne's latest 'emergency' budget was, unsurprisingly, regressive hitting the poorest hardest and giving away to the wealthier of society. You're lauding the rise of the inheritance tax level, something which will benefit the children of just the richest few percent of the population whilst praising cuts which will affect the poorest of workers. Note that many people in work will be worse off under this latest bill. It's all very well and good praising the rise in tax thresholds but, as the IFS noted, the people who benefit most from this aren't the lowest paid, but the wealthy. The associated cuts to tax credits and housing benefits mean that the poorest are worse off. As I note so often, we're the 6th wealthiest country in the world, but you're cheering on policies which impoverish the poor whilst transferring wealth to the better off.

You seem very confused about what the proposed mansion tax was as you're comparing it to inheritance tax? They are entirely different things. A mansion tax was fundamentally a graduated property tax which is actually a very good idea though the particular implementation was a poor idea. Much better to instigate a graduated property tax as found in most developed countries.

The apprentice thing is an amusing one. The funding plans for this are a bit wavy but answer me this, the 3 million number would indicate that around 1 in 10 of the workforce will be in an apprenticeship in the next 5 years. Is this in any way believable? Where are you going to find enough trainers to work with these apprentices? The numbers don't make one jot of sense. Lots of shelf-stacking 'apprenticeships' coming up, I expect. What are the chances that the 'apprenticeships' also come with low levels of wages, eh? Pretty high.

The plans for recouping money from tax avoidance and evasion are ambitious and, frankly, unlikely to come to fruition. Amongst the other cuts to goverment services, HMRC has been hacked right back and it seems improbable that they will have the resources or the expertise to get anywhere near the £5 billion figure in the budget. Time will tell, but don't be surprised if this doesn't materialise. The number of workers at HMRC have been cut by 40% over the past 10 years. Doesn't seem likely to me that cuts in levels such as this can be sustainable.

The rest of your post is just the usual Tory stuff about 'shirkers vs workers'. You seem to imagine that every young person that needs assistance with housing is slacking off or deliberately has kids just to get a home. As with all of these stories you read in the press, they are the exceptions rather than the rule. Sweeping generalisations in the assumptions about the young which also ignores the fact that youth unemployment is 3 times higher than the rate for the general population! Not by choice, most of the time.

[/b]As for the point about removing benefits after the second child, please note that we have a severely aging population. The baby boomers are retiring now and the increase in expected lifespan due to improved health and medicine means somebody is going to need to be looking after them and earning taxes to pay for their pensions. If you try to persuade UK citizens to have fewer children, this implies greater immigration in the future to support the elderly both financially and socially. I'm sure you're all for that[b].


This is a poor argument from you Maringer, you are jusifying paying parents to have extra children they cannot afford.

I wouldn't worry to much about the baby boomers retiring as I'm sure this lot will help out -
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5632/uk_muslim_population_of_26_million_by_2051


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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grimps
July 23, 2015, 11:20pm
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The problem is that the left don't seem to understand that most tax payers that are not working for the government don't like to see their hard earned money being spunked up the wall on wasters and spongers.
Why should I get up every morning and go to a job I hate to pay for someone else to stay in bed ?
Why should I pay for someone to have three or four kids with absolutely no plan or intentions of how to pay for them ?
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Grim74
July 23, 2015, 11:36pm
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Quoted from grimps
The problem is that the left don't seem to understand that most tax payers that are not working for the government don't like to see their hard earned money being spunked up the wall on wasters and spongers.
Why should I get up every morning and go to a job I hate to pay for someone else to stay in bed ?
Why should I pay for someone to have three or four kids with absolutely no plan or intentions of how to pay for them ?


It's what the left call social justice lol, you may as well bang your head on a wall rather then go asking questions like that on here.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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ska face
July 24, 2015, 12:04am

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Quoted from grimps
The problem is that the left don't seem to understand that most tax payers that are not working for the government don't like to see their hard earned money being spunked up the wall on wasters and spongers.
Why should I get up every morning and go to a job I hate to pay for someone else to stay in bed ?
Why should I pay for someone to have three or four kids with absolutely no plan or intentions of how to pay for them ?


But you've absolutely no issue with, say, the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple or Facebook paying relatively intercourse all in tax - not paying their fair share?

I've always thought this kind of thought appeals to bullies. Happy to pick on people worse off than them, but would never dream of looking up at the real problem. Facts and figures on tax avoidance/evasion aren't hard to find, but why do that when you can bully someone on benefits.
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Maringer
July 24, 2015, 12:39am
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Yoghurt knitter? Please, let's try to be a bit more grown up than that.

This Halewood chap certainly seems to take it all very seriously with in-depth posts about the figures behind his claims which are based on publicly-available information. On the other hand Iain Duncan Smith has been caught lying many a time (how is it possible that a politician who lied on his CV worm his way into a position of power, I wonder?), and I have to say that I'm very doubtful about the accuracy behind some of the figures coming out of the DWP.

This recent post contains some eye-opening numbers and it is pretty easy to see that if they are close to being correct (they certainly seem feasible from the charts shown), we'll be living in a very different country by this time next year (the new caps kick in 2016):

https://speye.wordpress.com/20.....ide-of-london-alone/

Some of the criticisms of the official figures seem to hold water as a lot of the published stuff is based on the original planned 23k/26k caps which have, of course, now been reduced to 20k/23k.

Of course, one of the things we haven't noted yet in this discussion is that the theoretical savings from the benefit cap are probably not savings at all. Back in 2011, this letter sent from Eric Pickles' office was leaked:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jul/02/full-text-letter-eric-pickles-welfare-reform

Here's the interesting part:

Quoted Text
Firstly we are concerned that the savings from this measure, currently estimated ay £270m savings p.a from 2014-2015 does not take account of the additional costs to local authorities (through homelessness and temporary accommodation). In fact we think it is likely that the policy as it stands will generate a net cost.


I seem to remember reading that the IFS think it is a net cost as well. I wonder if any organisations have attempted to study the costs to local authorities due to dealing with hardship caused by the benefit cap? Probably not.

As regards your comments about £20,000 (or £23,000 in London) being more than enough to live on, bear in mind that living costs are more expensive in much of the country than up here in Grimsby.

The latest study by Shelter even comes to the conclusion that the latest benefit cap will effectively exclude the poor from much of the south of the country!

http://www.theguardian.com/soc.....-cities-unaffordable

Not too surprising when you consider that average rents in London have reached £1,500 per month which implies families hit by the cap will have to live on £5,000 per year after rent. Imagine trying to live on just 96 quid a week with a few kids down in London. That would need to cover food, transportation, clothing, heating, electricity. Would be a bit of a struggle, I expect, to say the very least.

All down to the utterly broken housing/rental market in this country which no party seems willing to try and repair.

I'll be heading off on holiday in the morning so won't be likely to post much over the next week. I'll look in on the footy side of things but typing is a pain in the bottom on a tablet and I'll have better things to do with my time than bicker on this particular part of the forum!
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Maringer
July 24, 2015, 12:48am
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Quoted from Grim74


This is a poor argument from you Maringer, you are jusifying paying parents to have extra children they cannot afford.

I wouldn't worry to much about the baby boomers retiring as I'm sure this lot will help out -
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5632/uk_muslim_population_of_26_million_by_2051


No, it is saying that we will need more taxpayers to pay for the pensions of the ageing and already retired population! I was pretty flipping clear what I was saying, you know. Not rocket science. That was probably the part of that post which there was least to argue about, yet you had a go. Jeeze, Louise.

Well done for randomly bringing Muslims into the thread, by the way. I'm sure there was some sort of point in that hidden in there somewhere (flipping well hidden), though the premise of the article linked is pathetically, comically ridiculous.

I welcome the arrival of another 26 million (snigger) Muslims just as long as they pay the taxes to fund my retirement in the way that my taxes are funding the retirements of those who have already quit work.
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Maringer
July 24, 2015, 1:00am
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Quoted from grimps
The problem is that the left don't seem to understand that most tax payers that are not working for the government don't like to see their hard earned money being spunked up the wall on wasters and spongers.
Why should I get up every morning and go to a job I hate to pay for someone else to stay in bed ?
Why should I pay for someone to have three or four kids with absolutely no plan or intentions of how to pay for them ?


Ha ha ha! Classic Tory propaganda!

Doesn't hold up very well when you look at the actual facts, however:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths

Yep, there are always one or two who will try to work the system, but they are in a tiny minority.

On the other hand, wouldn't it be nice if we could cut down on tax evasion and fraud? HMRC reckons the tax gap is currently £34 billion per year (that's tax that should be paid but isn't) and I've seen comments indicating this hopelessly underestimates the true figure.

Rather than hitting the poorest with a few billion of cuts, how about getting the wealthy to pay what they should? There's a thought.

Anyway, signing off now as heading off on holiday in about 8 hours!

Have a fun week, everyone.
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grimsby pete
July 24, 2015, 4:38pm

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Quoted from Maringer


Ha ha ha! Classic Tory propaganda!

Doesn't hold up very well when you look at the actual facts, however:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/06/welfare-britain-facts-myths

Yep, there are always one or two who will try to work the system, but they are in a tiny minority.

On the other hand, wouldn't it be nice if we could cut down on tax evasion and fraud? HMRC reckons the tax gap is currently £34 billion per year (that's tax that should be paid but isn't) and I've seen comments indicating this hopelessly underestimates the true figure.

Rather than hitting the poorest with a few billion of cuts, how about getting the wealthy to pay what they should? There's a thought.

Anyway, signing off now as heading off on holiday in about 8 hours!

Have a fun week, everyone.


Don't forget to post your final donation to the fund before you spend all your holiday money mate.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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                               First game   April 1955
                               
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HackneyHaddock
July 24, 2015, 7:37pm
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For those of you voting for Corbyn, who are you going to give your second preferences to?
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Chrisblor
July 24, 2015, 9:35pm

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Toss up between Burnham and not even bothering to list one. At the start of campaigning I didn't even expect to consider voting for any other candidates - sadly Burnham's been a huge disappointment which is why i'm considering not listing a second preference.


gary jones
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July 24, 2015, 10:06pm

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Quoted from Chrisblor
Toss up between Burnham and not even bothering to list one. At the start of campaigning I didn't even expect to consider voting for any other candidates - sadly Burnham's been a huge disappointment which is why i'm considering not listing a second preference.


This. Corbyn or bust for me. Unless something pretty drastic happens I'm not voting for a second choice. If its a mandatory thing then I'll probably vote whoever is perceived to have the least chance of winning so not to effect things. I still predict scheming and standard politician rug pulling to get a Burnham victory.


"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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GrimRob
July 24, 2015, 11:19pm

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Been an interesting betting market this one. Burnham has been favourite from the start but everyone else has had a stint at second favourite and Burham's odds have lengthened considerably.. Corbyn is still a good bet to get the most first preference votes. I backed Cooper at 6/1 originally I have layed her now to cover my bet so I don't lose anything.Hope she wins as well, regardless of policies I think a female candidate would stand a better chance of beating the Tories in 2020.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
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When the candidates for Labour leader were interviewed on TV, Corbyn was quizzed about inviting IRA and Islamic fundamentalists to Parliament.  He gave a well thought out and reasoned answer, he said something like {you need to get people together to see were they stand and try and find common ground.}

It was a good reply and in that instant for me along with his other answers I said to my wife that he should be leader.  I'd no sooner said that, and he was asked on his stance of Northern Ireland and he said he would like to see a unified Ireland. My thoughts after he said that were I hope he puts on some concrete boots and jumps off the Humber bridge.  

Not only is he a sympathiser he is an apologist, just another George Galloway but in a different animal skin.

There is a reason why he has stayed on the sidelines for so long.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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HighamMariner
August 10, 2015, 2:09pm
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The trouble with political bias is that you cover up errors/mistakes/incompetence.  I much prefer to take each election as an individual event and then cast my vote according to what feels best at the time.

A couple of you seem hell-bent on pulling apart the arguments of others without examining the flaws in your own.  Pathetic really.

My two penneth, the Country needs a strong labour party to push the conservatives to the absolute limits.  Elections, like it or not are won in the centre ground by winning the support of the floating voter, labour have lost sight of that.  I sincerely hope that they get there act together ready for the next election so that centre ground voters, and yes I am one, have a genuine choice to make.


Be back when fenty felicitations off
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AdamHaddock
August 10, 2015, 3:13pm

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1 Burnham
2 Cooper

Watson for deputy after his efforts to take on the Murdoch press


[img]https://images.app.goo.gl/bymuz36koLHofSn79[/img]
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Marinerz93
August 11, 2015, 10:41am

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Without Labour votes from Scotland it is going to be decades before Labour get a sniff of power.  Labour had a chance to level the playing field when they were in power to make the voting more democratic but it didn't suit their majority at the time.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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FishOutOfWater
August 11, 2015, 4:49pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93
Without Labour votes from Scotland it is going to be decades before Labour get a sniff of power.  Labour had a chance to level the playing field when they were in power to make the voting more democratic but it didn't suit their majority at the time.


So they did...and now it's come back to haunt them

http://news.bbc.co.uk/news/vote2001/hi/english/voting_system/newsid_1216000/1216185.stm

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forza ivano
August 11, 2015, 6:42pm

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maringer and i have had several long discussions on labour's future and imho it looks fairly bleak at the moment . i do know that ,however much i admire Corbyn (his principles, the fact that he tries to do what he says, he's an excellent constituency MP who actually increased his majority in the election, the fact that he's got young people enthused, he's got a barack obama grass roots thing going, he actually represents the left and what i imagined labour was for, that he provides a direct counterpoint to the tories and the daily mail etc) he will be destroyed by the Tories, their propaganda machine and their mates in the press.

the other candidates look like minnows in comparison, who would just be wafted aside by the cynical and ruthless Tories.

i tend to agree the commentator who said that the left seem to have run out of ideas.it's fine attracting the support of the 'underclass' and the public servants,but most people are now either self employed or in private industry, where the unions only have 14% of the workers. grim74 does have  a point when he says working people now have mortgages, pensions and 'aspirations' . 40 years ago we had a number of  Victorian employers, poor housing, poor Health & safety, pretty awful discrimination, racism and sexism . the work of the left, the unions and in particular the EU have largely cured many of these problems and now instead of suffering working people have moved on - today we have a far more comfortable lifestyle than our parents.

i think labour needs to be looking at what social democrat parties in Europe are doing, looking at the areas where the CBI have put forward some sensible arguments in opposition to the Tories, having a look at the co-operative/ john lewis models, remodelling what some of the more interesting ideas 'soft' Tories are putting forward.
i rather hope hope Corbyn wins - ok labour would be un electable but it'd certainly make politics far more interesting!
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Maringer
August 12, 2015, 8:46am
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Well, after initially being uncertain, the incredible range of attacks on Corbyn from the establishment has actually led me to believe he could well be onto something. By establishment, I don't just include the right-wing press and commentariat who you would expect to be critical, but also the 'left-wing' press, notably the Guardian, as well as any number of careerist Blairite politicians. The Guardian have published an remarkable number of anti-Corbyn hit pieces and articles by Blairites (2 or 3 on some days!). I realise the Guardian has supported the LibDems over the past 10 years so can't be considered anything but centrist, but I've been really taken aback by the vehemence of their attacks against Corbyn. In fact, it doesn't take much of research to discover that the Scott Trust which owns the Guardian has actually been the Scott Trust Ltd since 2008 and the board members of this supposedly charitable and progressive organisation include a surprising number of bankers and financiers! I've never been one to believe conspiracy theories, but it does make you wonder whether things are what they claim to be...  

It is notable that Corbyn is the only one of the leadership candidates who has come out with a reasoned outline for an economic policy which stands against the economically-illiterate austerity much beloved by both the Tories and the New Labourites at present. The so-called 'Corbynomics' with use of a financial instrument termed "People's QE" which would greatly invest in housing, infrastructure and the like looks to be a good idea to me, providing the details are tenable. Somebody at the FT obviously isn't on-message as they've made a sensible post on the Alphaville blog looking at the potential benefits of such a policy:

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2015/08/06/2136475/corbyns-peoples-qe-could-actually-be-a-decent-idea/

It is surely a good sign that yesterday, The Times, wrote an anti-Corbyn screed in an editorial which blatantly lied about and misrepresented these economic plans. They claimed that Corbyn thinks an additional £120 billion of tax could be raised by clamping down properly on evasion, but no such claim has been made. The creator of much of the 'Corbynomics', Richard Murphy at Tax Research, thinks an investment of £1 billion in HMRC could return an additional £20 billion. What we've actually seen, of course, is a cut in funding for HMRC in recent years. The inflationistas claiming the 'People's QE' would lead to rampant inflation seem to have forgotten that inflation is hovering around zero after £375 billion of 'regular' QE in recent years!

Other policies of Corbyn remain very popular with the electorate - pretty much everyone wants the railways to be renationalised and this would be extremely easy to do, almost certainly saving the government a great deal of money. It's no coincidence that some of the profitable railway franchises are operated by national railway providers from other European countries! Similarly, the major utilities would undoubtedly be better held in public hands, though I struggle to see how it would be possible to take them back off the various providers without paying out vast amounts. New nuclear power stations, for example, could be very easily and much more cheaply financed by government borrowing (just ask France), but instead we're going to sign up to paying EDF (owned by the French government!) a vast amount of money to build and operate them for us.

The question remains, of course, whether a Corbyn leadership actually would make Labour unelectable as so many seem eager to claim? The Blairites, in particular, are very keen to argue that if it wasn't for their hallowed Lord Tony (praise be Him and all His money), the Labour party wouldn't have been in power since the 1970s. However, this is a rather one-sided view which tends to ignore the fact that, by 1997, the Tories were so incredibly unpopular that pretty much anybody could have been elected in opposition. In fact, it was the fact that the Tories were in a shambles which helped Blair win the next two elections even though he lost an incredible 3 million votes in the first term and another million in the next one. The other popular claim is that the heavy defeat in 1983 shows a left-wing Labour government can't win power but this is a very one-eyed view which pretty much completely ignores that the split of the SDP took away a huge number of votes and the Falklands 'victory' provided the previously unpopular Thatcher with an enormous boost due to a nationalist vote. If the Tories are as unpopular as I expect them to be come the next election, can they really rely on another Labour party split (actually quite possible at the moment!) or another war to save them?

It's still remarkable to me that the Tories managed to increase their number of votes this term but they did manage to pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate very effectively with their lies about the economy and scaremongering over the SNP. Osborne's mishandling of the economy has been hidden to some degree by the fact he has continued to pump up a new housing bubble but this surely has to be unsustainable? I do struggle to see how he can keep this bubble from bursting again during the next 5 years, sending us back into recession, but I suppose time will tell. One very short-sighted policy which surprises me is the way the Tories continue to bash the young through cuts in benefits and removal of tax credits and the like. They are obviously very confident that this large demographic will never organise themselves to vote in their own best interests but personally, I wonder if the phenomenon of social media could change this around? Probably not, but if things continue to get worse for the young over the next 5 years as seems inevitable, something has to break at some point.

Anyway, I've decided to take the extra step and have donated a fiver to the Labour party to become a registered supporter so I can vote for Corbyn. First time I've ever had any involvement whatsoever with a political party and it certainly wouldn't have occurred without Corbyn's candidacy. If he doesn't end up winning, I can only hope that Cooper or Burham realise that there is a reason he has proven so popular and then take on board some of the feedback they receive. Heck, Cooper is a capable economist so she surely knows that supporting the 'austerity lite' policy of the Miliband/Balls era is utter nonsense, even if she is married to one of them!

If Corbyn does win and there is a rebellion in the Parliamentary Labour Party to try and remove him well, they'll deserve all they get and God help the country after that.
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psgmariner
August 12, 2015, 10:36am

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All these "attacks" on Corbyn from just about everyone - you don't think some of them may have a point rather than all being a huge conspiracy?


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Maringer
August 12, 2015, 11:16am
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What points?

That he's a left-wing extremist? Not according to the policies I've read. Mostly moderate left stuff - even the hullabaloo in the media about him taking about reinstating Clause 4 misrepresented what was actually said. I keep hearing how he is some sort of looney red nutjob but then you read what he has actually said about a wide variety of topics and you realise this is bunkum.

That his economic views are wrong? Not according to standard macroeconomics. The people supporting policies which go completely against the mainstream views of economics as taught in textbooks (and which the current facts seem to support) are the Conservatives/LibDems (no real difference between the two) and the New Labourites who know it is nonsense but have decided not to point out this fact. The polling commissioned by Cruddas the other week which claimed to show that the public supported austerity was just embarrassing because of the pointed nature of the question. It was like asking "Do you think stealing is bad". Well, duh! Cruddas, don't forget, is just another no-mark careerist politician who was actually in charge of shaping the weak Labour manifesto and policies which led to the election defeat so it really is the blind attempting to lead the blind.

If you don't think a supposedly left-wing newspaper publishing 2 or 3 articles attacking one candidate whilst letting the others write unquestioned op-eds every other day isn't noteworthy, I'm not sure what you think is.

Why have the other candidates not featured more in the larger debate? Because they have nothing to say. They've meekly decided to accept that they can't go against the false Tory narrative about the economy (which I've attempted to show is nonsense in various threads) and 'workers vs shirkers' and are just hanging around in the background failing to act as any sort of an opposition. Where will this leave them when the Tory excrement inevitably hits the fan in the future? Not in any sort of a strong position to achieve anything, that's for sure.

I disagree with Corbyn on a number of issues such as nuclear disarmament, but at least he seems willing to oppose the deeply divisive government we have lumbered ourselves with and has a plan for attempting to tackle many of the problems in this country instead of simply exacerbating them.

He may well prove unelectable but then so are the others at present. The question remains how long it is before the Tories make themselves unelectable once again. At the rate they are going, it won't be too long.
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Town Monkey
August 12, 2015, 5:23pm
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I'm not by nature in anyway left wing.  Quite the opposite, in fact, from an ideological point of view.  In particular, I've got no desire to see big, interfering government and some of the public sector waste that I've witnessed.  However, even with my dogmatic hat on, I really like Corbyn.  I think he actually has policies and a vision.  He also comes across as a man with integrity.  What he offers is a genuine counterpoint to the current government who, even for my tastes, have lurched far too far to the right.  The other 3 candidates offer as much as Ed Milliband, a grey, featureless, melange.  

Hopefully, if he is elected, he'll actually challenge this government on their reforms and hopefully moderate some of their more extreme instincts (who would have thought we'd miss this aspect of the Lib Dems).  Whether the electorate would trust him to run the country is another matter but at least we'd have a choice!

As an aside, I've been genuinely surprised by the level of attacks perpetrated by the Guardian (my paper of choice) on him.    
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grimsby pete
August 12, 2015, 6:48pm

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Most people might not like it but if Jeremy does win,

The next election would be very interesting,

We will have a good choice to make not all of the same waffle by all parties,

I can see Labour going into an alliance with the SNP to form a government,

Not sure what most people would think of that partnership.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                             68 Years following the Town

                              Life member of Trust

                               First game   April 1955
                               
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forza ivano
August 12, 2015, 7:10pm

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Quoted from Town Monkey
I'm not by nature in anyway left wing.  Quite the opposite, in fact, from an ideological point of view.  In particular, I've got no desire to see big, interfering government and some of the public sector waste that I've witnessed.  However, even with my dogmatic hat on, I really like Corbyn.  I think he actually has policies and a vision.  He also comes across as a man with integrity.  What he offers is a genuine counterpoint to the current government who, even for my tastes, have lurched far too far to the right.  The other 3 candidates offer as much as Ed Milliband, a grey, featureless, melange.  

Hopefully, if he is elected, he'll actually challenge this government on their reforms and hopefully moderate some of their more extreme instincts (who would have thought we'd miss this aspect of the Lib Dems).  Whether the electorate would trust him to run the country is another matter but at least we'd have a choice!

As an aside, I've been genuinely surprised by the level of attacks perpetrated by the Guardian (my paper of choice) on him.    


Nodding my head in agreement with much of that
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ginnywings
August 12, 2015, 9:13pm

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I was astonished this morning watching the news that there are those in the Labour Party who want to stop the leadership election because they are that worried by Corbyn winning. I thought we lived in a democracy FFS. They are using the excuse that people who support the Tories are registering so that they can vote him in. They may just be surprised by the level of support he has, especially among disillusioned lefties such as myself. It would be fooking ace if the Tories did have a hand in his winning and then he won the next general election. Yeah, i know it's unlikely, but i can dream.

It's about time that the Labour Party stopped being Tory lite and stood up for what they are supposed to believe in. If they sink at the next election, then so be it. It's not as if the current Blairite acolytes are doing anything at the polls.
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Maringer
August 12, 2015, 10:42pm
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For any of the candidates you'd have to say if they can't win an election in their own party, how can they possibly expect to win a General Election?
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codcheeky
August 12, 2015, 11:22pm
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Quoted from ginnywings
I was astonished this morning watching the news that there are those in the Labour Party who want to stop the leadership election because they are that worried by Corbyn winning. I thought we lived in a democracy FFS. They are using the excuse that people who support the Tories are registering so that they can vote him in. They may just be surprised by the level of support he has, especially among disillusioned lefties such as myself. It would be fooking ace if the Tories did have a hand in his winning and then he won the next general election. Yeah, i know it's unlikely, but i can dream.

It's about time that the Labour Party stopped being Tory lite and stood up for what they are supposed to believe in. If they sink at the next election, then so be it. It's not as if the current Blairite acolytes are doing anything at the polls.


Agree totally with this, just watched Newsnight where the presenter was trying to suggest that thousands and thousands have signed up to sway the poll in favour of Corbyn while supporting the Tories, with very little evidence of this, people are signing up because at last there is someone who seems to genuinely want to answer a question with a straight answer without worrying about what the spin doctors and press think about it. The Westminster elite are worried about this because politics at the top end should really be for public schoolboys who have debated variations of the same things since they where at prep school together.  
The other 3 more or less showed how spineless they are by not opposing the Tory budget and have made the mistake of playing to the press and centreist theme instead of the people who will actually be voting for them as most party members are much more radical than their MP`s
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jock dock tower
August 13, 2015, 7:39am
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If Corbyn wins the New Labour apparatchiks are finished. Their neo liberal politics that resonate far more with Tory voters than they do with anyone else will be consigned to the dustbin of history.

What would they then do? They couldn't do an SDP and leave the party to form another one as the Tories already hold that ground. Would they stay and argue in an attempt to try and win back power? I don't know, it would be total anathema for them to see a revitalised Labour Party (who would then have a genuine chance of fighting back in Scotland) arguing for the social democratis / socialist cause. Odds on you'd get more than one "cross the floor" at Westminster, and then things really would get interesting......


No attempt at ethical or social seduction can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred of the Tory party. So far as I'm concerned they're lower than vermin. Aneurin Bevan.
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Southwark Mariner
August 13, 2015, 7:52pm
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surely who leads the party doesn't actually matter to Grimbarians

[img]http://puu.sh/jAlUY/252684eeff.jpg[/img]
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psgmariner
August 14, 2015, 6:47am

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He will need to come out and answer these questions of being anti Semitic to stand any chance.


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Maringer
August 14, 2015, 8:46am
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Quoted from psgmariner
He will need to come out and answer these questions of being anti Semitic to stand any chance.


The idea that Corbyn is anti-semitic is ludicrous. Calling Hezbollah and Hamas 'friends' as a catch-all when hosting a conference aimed at helping find peace in the middle east is pretty obvious and only the most one-eyed fool would think he actually meant it literally and not figuratively. In the C4 interview with Guru-Murthy (who made a complete mammary of himself), he says as much.

I understand that the Jewish Chronicle, a newspaper with a distinct right-wing bent whose editor writes articles for a selection of right-wing newspapers is always making baseless claims about Corbyn but then what else would you expect?

Here's the videos of the hustings from the Jewish Centre the other month if you want to see what Corbyn and the others have to say about a variety of issues.

http://www.thejc.com/videos/news-videos/watch-again-labour-party-leadership-hustings

Anybody who has campaigned for Palestinian statehood such as Corbyn always has the anti-Semitic accusations thrown at them by the looney Zionists. Pretty much anybody with any sense must realise that the only way there can ever be peace in the middle east is with a two-state solution.
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psgmariner
August 14, 2015, 11:22am

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I agree it's an over the top accusation. The old adage of Jewish people running the media is probably still true enough for it to be a big problem for Jezza though. If it's in the paper enough it will stick.


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Welwynmariner
August 14, 2015, 12:33pm

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What strikes me is how the existing Labour hierarchy under-estimated Corbyn. Evidently Andy Burnham passed on some of his nominations so he could run and now runs the risk that Corbyn will win the leadership election outright.

I had some dealings with Jeremy Corbyn through work and I always found him a  very straightforward, thoughtful and courteous person to work with. He was a bit of a pain because he bombarded us with MP's letters. Anyway - he's no Michael Foot and if you listen to him he makes a lot of sense. In Europe he would be seen as a middle of the road Socialist (in a middle of the road country like Denmark or the Netherlands for example)

At the moment he's not being given that much direct publicity - it's all behind closed doors stuff but if he does wiN I wouldn't under-estimate him and he would give Cameron a good run for his money. I'd be interested to see who would be in his Shadow Cabinet.
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Manchester Mariner
August 14, 2015, 12:55pm

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Quoted from Welwynmariner
I'd be interested to see who would be in his Shadow Cabinet.


Given the ammount of Labour MP's telling the public not to vote for Jeremy Corbyn I would also be interested in who would be in a Corbyn cabinet. I read an interesting thing yesterday about an MP from Newcastle who had decided to nominate Corbyn for the leadership election based on responses from their Labour supporting constituents but was now supporting Andy Burnham. On one hand good to see an MP representing the constituency who elected them but then going turncoat in a classic politician style. I just sense a bit of fear creeping in within the political classes and careerists of someone who appears to actually answer questions, remains principled, is without the need for spin and from what I have seen over the last month or so is giving a growing number of people a bit of hope.



"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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Rodley Mariner
August 14, 2015, 12:58pm
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Quite a few MP's nominated him to broaden the options and the debate but aren't actually supporting him. I think Burnham may actually have encouraged it amongst some of his supporters.
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Maringer
August 14, 2015, 2:51pm
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The question is, if Corbyn does win the leadership election, will the PLP accept it as a statement of what people supporting the party are thinking or will they just dismiss it as entryism as some of them have so foolishly claimed already?

I had no intention of joining the party or voting in this election before the unbelievable and incessant attacks on Corbyn by all ranges of the media.

Fundamentally, many of the senior figures in the PLP have shown themselves to be craven idiots without an original or even mildly left-wing thought in their heads.

As it stands, Corbyn is literally the only person in mainstream politics who admits the housing market is utterly and completely broken. PQE is a policy which could make a real impact in this respect and help the young become an important part of this society once again instead of a disregarded afterthought.
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Welwynmariner
August 14, 2015, 8:25pm

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Quoted from Maringer
The question is, if Corbyn does win the leadership election, will the PLP accept it as a statement of what people supporting the party are thinking or will they just dismiss it as entryism as some of them have so foolishly claimed already?  


As I understand it, if Corbyn wins then that's it - he's the Leader of the Labour Party. There's also an election for the Deputy Leader, which one of the Eagle sisters is standing in (not sure who the others are) so I presume that they will work out their Cabinet members. I would guess there would be a lot of pulling together and protestations of unity
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Welwynmariner
August 14, 2015, 8:39pm

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Candidates for the Deputy Leadership

Angela Eagle
Caroline Flint
Ben Bradshaw
Stella Creasy
Tom Watson
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ginnywings
August 15, 2015, 2:05am

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Tom Watson the clear favourite.
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grimsby pete
August 15, 2015, 5:33pm

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Quoted from ginnywings
Tom Watson the clear favourite.


Not any more he  just had 3 bogies.


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codcheeky
August 21, 2015, 11:09pm
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It seems no one in the media wants Jeremy perhaps they are frightened because he doesn`t want to play by their rules. He has a stance that even tories wouldn`t have regarded as left wing in th early 80`s
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Marinerz93
August 23, 2015, 12:06pm

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If he wins he is going to apologise for the Iraq war.  This is going to cost us a fortune, were there is blame there's a claim FFS.

If he apologises what does this mean for teflon Blair, will Corbyn release documents of the time to show Blair as a liar and war monger.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

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Grim74
August 23, 2015, 8:06pm
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I see that he's odds on favourite to win now, the bookies not usually wrong, bleak times ahead for the Labour Party they will soon to be nothing more than an insignificant party of protest.
It's seems crazy to think as all the infighting unfolds regarding the validity of the upcoming vote that 4 months ago this was the party that wanted to run the country, yet they can't even run a leadership contest.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
August 24, 2015, 8:22am
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I wouldn't be so certain that Corbyn as leader would lead Labour to become insignificant - unless, of course, the PLP try to get rid of him in which case they will get all they deserve. Hopefully any MPs engaging in such a scheme would be duly deselected by their local parties

The right-wing media are certainly worried about something as the smears against Corbyn have been unending (and mostly nonsense, of course). What it has been surprising to see is that the so-called left-wing media lead by the Guardian have also spent much of the last month printing thinly-veiled attacks and endless opinion pieces by arch-Blairites attempting to denigrate him as well. Just goes to show how much there is a real political/Westminster establishment, regardless of party. There isn't a homosexual paper between some of the politicians of the main 3 parties.

One good thing to come out of the process so far is that discussion about different economic and social policies have finally opened up which is somewhat different to earlier this year, when the main parties were almost in lockstep before the election.

As you would expect, the so-called 'Corbynomics' policies have been attacked by various figures in the right-wing media. On the BBC, Peston did a decent enough article on it until the end when his conclusions didn't match the facts (due to his city-centric views on anything to do with the economy), but it is useful that discussion about investment in the economy has actually come to the fore. The establishment figures say they think the proposed process of People's Quantitive Easing (PQE) is unnecessary because the government could simply borrow in the normal manner to invest. This being the case, why don't they?

One thing which has been occurring of late and hasn't attracted too much in the way of comment is the economic turmoil in China. Chinese investment has been one of the strongest factors in the recovery, weak as it has been (plenty of money pumped into the property market has come from China), and Osborne's improbable projections for 'balancing the books' (which remain nonsensical) have surely now become totally impossible. It may be that something like PQE will be required to try to drag us out of another recession before too long. Just depends on how much of an impact problems in China have on the world economy.
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AdamHaddock
August 24, 2015, 11:52am

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I think a mixed bag of results in next year's elections could make it difficult for the PLP to get rid of him - if Labour do badly in the council elections in the so called aspirational areas and the tories win London mayor again, yet Labour win back the Scottish parliament (12 months after the near wipeout at the GE).


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jock dock tower
August 26, 2015, 4:43pm
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I find myself permanently embarrassed by a party to which I once belonged, and loved. The scaremongering by "senior" Labour politicians has been utterly woeful and it's totally shambolic. The latest wheeze, to oust a good few thousand of potential Corbyn voters on the back of spurious allegations of entryism is ludicrous.

Harmmand herself has stated quite clearly that the Party needs to reach out to Tory voters and try and win them back. Party officlas are furiously checking social media to purge anyone who has voted Tory previously? You simply could not script this lunacy.

Mark Serwotka, head of the PCS Union is banned from voting. WTF? He's hardly a Tory voter, is he?

The Party will ultimately implode, I think there's no danger of that not happening. I hope it happens sooner than later though so a new rump of a Labour Party can get up and running and start to challenge these Tories who are just p1ssing all over them. "Oh no, George has set us another trap what shall we do?" Self immolation's the way forward for them.


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codcheeky
August 26, 2015, 8:42pm
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As someone who has traditionally supported labour, last couple of elections have voted for the greens because there was next to no difference between the others. would not for vote Blair after Iraq.  Would like to come back but it seems I'm just the sort they don't want voting for a new leader, they have got themselves in a state by reacting to problem about the voting that doesn't really exist because the establishment candidates look like losing.  They can see power slipping away from the westminister elite and are clueless about what to do about it
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Maringer
August 26, 2015, 9:10pm
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The 'establishment' was especially on show today. The Grauniad deliberately misreported that Corbyn thought women-only carriages on trains were a good idea when he had said nothing of the sort.

There were then a couple of pieces by a couple of columnists criticising Corbyn for promoting this policy (which was floated by the Tories last year, oddly enough), when he'd done no such thing! Quite staggering to see such dishonesty from a theoretically left-leaning national newspaper. You'd kind of expect it from right-wing rags such as the Mail or the Telegraph, but this is utterly bizarre to behold from the Graun. Absolutely shameless, the lot of them.

Makes the survival of the BBC (for all its many flaws) all the more important. You'd hope they would at least keep some semblance of impartiality to reporting.
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Grim74
September 12, 2015, 12:21pm
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Yeas he's done it!! Congratulations Corbyrn, commiserations Labour.😄


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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forza ivano
September 12, 2015, 12:42pm

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Interesting times ahead. Certainly going to be very different, and the electorate is definitely going to have a clear choice. If Corbin can use the young people,the newcomers,the returners to activate from the bottom up he may surprise a few people.id look at how Obama used the enthusiasm and grass roots support to launch an unstoppable campaign.already setting his stall out, embracing the unions rather than pretending they don't exist, supporting the refugees and the poor, pro environment, anti war. The environment might be an interesting area to go for given how anti green the Tories are becoming
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Maringer
September 12, 2015, 6:51pm
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Let's face it, Corbyn's victory was made possible by the paucity of his opponents. Judging by her policies, Kendall is in the wrong party, Burnham and Cooper are badly tarnished by the 'New Labour' years, not to mention some nonsensical utterances and an almost complete lack of discussion of policy during the leadership contest. Cooper's main appeal seemed to be to say, "Vote for me because I'm a woman"! Ridiculous. Any time any of them mentioned the words Weimar or Zimbabwe in relation to the so-called 'Corbynomics' policies, they showed themselves utterly incapable of logic or understanding anything about economics. Cooper was the most surprising in this regard as she's a highly-qualified economist but seems to have forgotten everything she learned at university.

Will be interesting to see how Cameron's bully-boy bluster works in PMQs when he is facing Corbyn. Corbyn is certainly correct that we're crying out for a change to the punch and judy nonsense we have traditionally seen. You know, the stuff that Cameron originally claimed he was going to stop before becoming worse than anybody else at it. Corbyn does actually plan a more collegiate and democratic way of running the Labour Party which ought to make the leadership issue (so beloved by the media and the right-wingers) of less relevance. Whether or not this will be successful remains to be seen.

Good to see that the Labour party will finally be standing up to the austerian nonsense spouted about the economy after the pathetically supine approach taken since 2010. It doesn't take much to see that the current neo-liberal economic stuff which we've suffered since the days of Thatcher (thought it was slightly milder under 'New Labour') wasn't sustainable, so it will be good to have a major political party of a major nation standing up against this nonsense. Notable that Corbyn didn't just win the vote with people who signed up as 'supporters', but also with party members and the unions. No way that the Blairites can claim he hasn't won fair and square.

Once the slings and arrows start being flung (well continue, really) by the right-wing media, bear in mind that his policies aren't those of a 'looney leftie' but are actually not too far from what was Conservative Party policy in the years before Thatcher hit the scene! If you read something in the press which sounds ridiculous or outrageous, chances are he never said it or the newspaper is taking a ridiculously one-eyed view of a topic which bears little semblance to reality.

As the last election showed, a government's success or re-electability is generally judged on how the economy is performing in the lead up to the election. The Tories managed to con the electorate into thinking they were doing a good job despite the worse recovery from a recession ever (not to mention the lies about previous Labour government overspending causing the recession), in part due to the crash in oil prices and drop in inflation. Chances of them managing the same in the 5 years time look to be slim, not least because Osborne's plans to run a surplus rely on an increase in private debt and the bubble is already inflating before the next housing crash. I don't think they will be able to fend off the next crash for 5 years (or blame Europe for everything they get wrong) and no chance of getting away with another crash and another weak recovery in that tame, so interesting times ahead. If the are lucky enough to avoid another crash in the next parliament, I suppose they would be favourites but this would be by chance rather than design.

I suppose a lot depends on how much the Blairites still in the party attempt to scupper Corbyn. I see some of the shadow cabinet no-names have resigned already. Will be interesting to see who takes their place.
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forza ivano
September 12, 2015, 8:23pm

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His interesting start continues.other labour MPs will oppose Cameron at pmq s and he has asked all other MPs for questions they want him to ask Cameron.refreshing
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codcheeky
September 12, 2015, 9:52pm
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Quoted from forza ivano
His interesting start continues.other labour MPs will oppose Cameron at pmq s and he has asked all other MPs for questions they want him to ask Cameron.refreshing


It will only be refreshing if Cameron actually answers a question
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forza ivano
September 13, 2015, 12:50am

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Quoted from codcheeky


It will only be refreshing if Cameron actually answers a question


Maybe.but if TV shows Cameron being evasive week after week and not answering perfectly reasonable questions then the dynamics change
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Maringer
September 13, 2015, 7:00am
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They ought to do a Paxman and continue asking the question until they get a decent answer!  
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arryarryarry
September 14, 2015, 2:13am
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So it's only the Tories and the Tory press that lie, what about Blair and Brown two of the biggest fuckingliars on the planet.
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codcheeky
September 14, 2015, 8:25am
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Quoted from arryarryarry
So it's only the Tories and the Tory press that lie, what about Blair and Brown two of the biggest fuckingliars on the planet.



At least the Labour party has at last got rid of their supporters as leaders,  Blair was very lucky to be in power during the boom years and did many good things although financing them by pfi was a big mistake, and the results of his foreign policy we are still witnessing, Brown was unlucky his time came at the same time as the world crash, but heaven knows what Cameron would have done about it, yes he spent money to try and get the economy going again and bailed out the banks but but what other choice was there? I`m yet to hear a proper Tory answer.
It remains to be seen what next, certainly history will look very poorly on those that have resigned because they do not like a democratic result, they do not like their westminster elite being knocked out of even a little power. The line that austerity (except fot the rich) is the only answer is at last being challenged and as Jeremy says there is plenty of money in this country and no need for poverty and food banks
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Grim74
September 14, 2015, 10:41am
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He's not even been in the job 24hrs and already the infighting is well on the way, gives a whole new meaning to the muppet show, il be surprised if he makes Xmas at this rate..... Great entertainment though  


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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FishOutOfWater
September 14, 2015, 1:44pm
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Call me naïve but I don't get it when those that are sharpening their knives over Corbyn say that he's been appointed to make sure Labour forms the next government - is that really the case?

If it happens then all well and good - his colleagues would probably begrudgingly accept he was the man for the job

My view though is that he has been selected because he has similar principles to many "old" Labour used to have and doesn't want his party to carry on down the "Tory Lite" route

If he doesn't win an election, as long as he has stayed true to such principles what is the issue?

Other parties on both sides of the political spectrum exist in the knowledge that they will never become big hitters in a Westminster parliament ( UKIP / The Green Party / SNP ) but as long as they offer an alternative to the government when there is an election, then what's the problem?

As I said maybe I am being simplistic and maybe the reason any disaffected Labour sections have prominence, comes about because they know they might not get to be the next government but they cannot dispute that they now offer a clear alternative to the path that Cameron & Co are pursuing
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grimsby pete
September 15, 2015, 10:45am

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Labour have strayed from their true values for years now,

They have tried to take the centre ground from the Conservatives,

IMO  that is why Scotland went to the SNP and a lot of England voted UKIP,

They can now start afresh put a bit on honesty into politics (     )

AND

Starting winning back their core voters and waverers ,

It should be an interesting time from now to the next general election.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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Maringer
September 15, 2015, 12:13pm
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Except, of course, the centre ground hasn't been central at all. New Labour drifted rightwards, following the Thatcherite policies of financial deregulation and pumping up the property market which led to the big crash in 2008. As the Coalition moved even further to the right, coming up with policies which would have been shouted down in the 1980s, Miliband/Balls barely moved from their position so the centre had moved to the right. The likes of Kendall would have continued to move further rightwards. Why she is even a Labour Party member is beyond me.

As I've noted a few times, many of Corbyn's proposed policies (only sketched out so far), wouldn't have looked out of place in a Conservative Party manifesto from the 1970s and earlier which shows how far to the right things have gone over the past 40-odd years. Even if we don't see Corbyn get into power, at least there is somebody providing a more left-wing option now which can only be good for debate and providing choice.
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Marinerz93
September 16, 2015, 7:39pm

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Labour have never been further from the man in the street than where they find themselves today.

Corbyn is a republican who wants to unite Ireland and hasn't got the moral fibre to sing our national anthem. If Corbyn gets into power he will be as destructive to the UK as that Goon Bush Jnr was to the states.

However, the Scottish Independents will now smell blood, Corbyn won't win any seats in Scotland and that will keep the conservatives in power.  Blair had the chance to level the playing field but had too much of a good number at the time.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

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LH
September 16, 2015, 11:20pm

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Maybe you should move to North Korea if you think everyone should sing the national anthem when they hear it?
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Maringer
September 17, 2015, 12:10am
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Quoted from Marinerz93
Labour have never been further from the man in the street than where they find themselves today.

Corbyn is a republican who wants to unite Ireland and hasn't got the moral fibre to sing our national anthem. If Corbyn gets into power he will be as destructive to the UK as that Goon Bush Jnr was to the states.

However, the Scottish Independents will now smell blood, Corbyn won't win any seats in Scotland and that will keep the conservatives in power.  Blair had the chance to level the playing field but had too much of a good number at the time.


Gibber.

Corbyn is indeed an atheist republican so criticising him for not singing, "God Save the Queen" (surely the worst of all national anthems), is bloody ridiculous. Moral fibre? Oh, please. For those that are claiming his failure to sing the song shows disrespect to the airmen who fought and died in the Battle of Britain, please point out to me anywhere in the lyrics of the song that praises any part of the British armed forces? Nothing there last time I looked. I don't sing the national anthem either because the fact that somebody happened to drop out of one particular girl private rather than another doesn't make them deserving of my allegiance or respect. I'm actually similar to Corbyn in many respects - republican, but don't really care about getting rid of the monarchy as I think they are probably a decent draw for foreign tourists. Would be nice if they paid a bit more in the way of taxes, however, so hopefully we'll see a Land Value Tax implented at some point or another and the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas won't find themselves exempt from paying it. For what it's worth, I think the Queen has always been very conscientious about her duties and is an admirable woman. Most of her offspring, on the other hand, tend towards the talentless parasite end of the scale.

A comparison of Corbyn and GWB is the most bizarre thing I've read on here today. One is a long-term parliamentarian who has served his constitutuents well and lives parsimoniously, sticking to his principles. The other was a rich-kid playboy who dodged the draft thanks to his wealthy parents and, in part thanks to his father's status and family's wealth, was somehow able to get himself elected as president of the US. He proceeded to start various disastrously-managed wars around the world which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, completely screwed up any minor stability in the middle east, oversaw the radicalisation of tens or hundreds of thousands of Islamists around the world due to his dreadful foreign policy and almost destroyed the US economy through right-wing economic lunacy. If you seriously think those two have anything at all in common, I want something of what you're smoking.

It is almost inevitable that Ireland will be united some day or other - the Catholic population is expanding, the Protestant population is declining so it seems likely that, at some point, there will be a considerable majority who wish to reunite (I do realise that many of the Catholics currently classify themselves as British, however). Probably several decades away at the very least before there is any chance of this occurring. Just hope that the current problems bubbling up over there can be resolved because nobody wants to see a return to the bad old days which looks like a real possibility at the moment.

Doubt that Corbyn will be able to make too many inroads in Scotland. That ship has sailed now and I can't see any way that the Scots won't be independent some time within the next 10 or 15 years. Probably sooner rather than later. However, a left-leaning coalition featuring Labour/SNP/Greens/Plaid Cymru ought to be just about achievable at some point in the future. As I've said in the past, a lot depends on whether or not the Tories manage to avoid another financial crash before the next election. I'd personally guess there is a better than 50/50 chance we will see one which would obviously be especially disastrous since most parts of the country haven't recovered from 2008 as yet, in great part thanks to the Tory policies.

I have to say, the onslaught in the media against Corbyn since Saturday has been even more rabid than I expected and, remarkably, the BBC and the Guardian seem to be almost at the forefront of it. I can understand it with the BBC which has been veering rightwards since 2010, but some of the stuff printed by the Guardian just beggars belief with many of the columnists looking to be trying out their best Daily Mail journalist impression.

I do tend to doubt Corbyn will be able to win an election but the fact he's got all areas of the establishment attacking him over the most banal of perceived misdeeds shows just how worried they are, which must surely be a good thing.
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Grim74
September 17, 2015, 9:06am
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It's common knowledge Corbyrn is anti monarchist as well as an atheist and if he'd come out and said Something along the lines of 'I do love my country but it would be hypercritical for me and go against my believes to sing a verse that I don't agree with blah,blah, blah, then I'd kind of give him some credit for sticking to his principles, after all I find the anthem quite irrelevant myself as it says nothing about our great country and what it is supposed to represent.

But now after a bit of pressure from certain quarters (mostly his own party) he's now shown what sort of man, wannabe world leader, he most certainly isn't, so after some member and bull story about him thinking of mummy and daddy during the anthem, it now seems that he's completed his epic climb down with his party announcing that he will in fact be singing the anthem in future!! It's a shame he didn't pause to think about mummy and daddy whilst passionately belting out the socialist anthem on the night of his success.





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Rodley Mariner
September 17, 2015, 12:17pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93
Labour have never been further from the man in the street than where they find themselves today.

Corbyn is a republican who wants to unite Ireland and hasn't got the moral fibre to sing our national anthem. If Corbyn gets into power he will be as destructive to the UK as that Goon Bush Jnr was to the states.

However, the Scottish Independents will now smell blood, Corbyn won't win any seats in Scotland and that will keep the conservatives in power.  Blair had the chance to level the playing field but had too much of a good number at the time.


I'm no Corbyn supporter but what a lot of nonsense that is. Why would singing the national anthem be a sign of moral fibre? I'd have thought sticking to his beliefs and not singing it was a much greater show of moral fibre. As for him not winning any seats in Scotland - what exactly is your rationale for that one?
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Maringer
September 17, 2015, 1:19pm
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Quoted from Grim74
It's common knowledge Corbyrn is anti monarchist as well as an atheist and if he'd come out and said Something along the lines of 'I do love my country but it would be hypercritical for me and go against my believes to sing a verse that I don't agree with blah,blah, blah, then I'd kind of give him some credit for sticking to his principles, after all I find the anthem quite irrelevant myself as it says nothing about our great country and what it is supposed to represent.

But now after a bit of pressure from certain quarters (mostly his own party) he's now shown what sort of man, wannabe world leader, he most certainly isn't, so after some member and bull story about him thinking of mummy and daddy during the anthem, it now seems that he's completed his epic climb down with his party announcing that he will in fact be singing the anthem in future!! It's a shame he didn't pause to think about mummy and daddy whilst passionately belting out the socialist anthem on the night of his success.



I don't really agree that anything much needed to be said about why he didn't sing the national anthem. As you note, everyone knows he's a republican. Spin doctors might think an announcement such as you suggest would have been a good idea but I think, on balance, if he's going to avoid the whole spin thing as much as possible (which would be good, in my opinion), then the comments he made were fine.

It's surprising how you always think the worst of left-wing politicians, isn't it? Why one earth would you imagine he would be lying about thinking about his late parents in a memorial service about events in the Second World War? Just bizarre and the idea that this somehow shows he's not suitable for office is risible.

However, I certainly think he should stick to his guns so it's a pity that he has ceded to the pressure and will apparently sing the national anthem at future events.

Another thing which is surprising so far is how little support he's received from within the PLP. The criticism he received about "Sing gate" from the lady member of his own Shadow Cabinet (Green, I think? Can't remember her name) was just astonishing. As the saying goes, it's better to be on the inside of the tent pissing out than the outside pissing in. In this case, it seems there are some on the inside pissing in as well.

On another note, I was amazed to see that Peston was claiming that he'd heard rumours some Labour MPs were considering crossing the floor to join the Conservatives! Career suicide for anybody even contemplating it, surely? In a similar vein, I notice that Allam is reportedly offering to fund Labour MPs to set up a new party or join the LibDems. Just how much of an idiot is that man, or is he looking to become a Tory peer?
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Grim74
September 18, 2015, 3:35pm
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Quoted from Maringer


I don't really agree that anything much needed to be said about why he didn't sing the national anthem. As you note, everyone knows he's a republican. Spin doctors might think an announcement such as you suggest would have been a good idea but I think, on balance, if he's going to avoid the whole spin thing as much as possible (which would be good, in my opinion), then the comments he made were fine.

[/b]It's surprising how you always think the worst of left-wing politicians, isn't it? Why one earth would you imagine he would be lying about thinking about his late parents in a memorial service about events in the Second World War? Just bizarre and the idea that this somehow shows he's not suitable for office is risible.[b]

However, I certainly think he should stick to his guns so it's a pity that he has ceded to the pressure and will apparently sing the national anthem at future events.

Another thing which is surprising so far is how little support he's received from within the PLP. The criticism he received about "Sing gate" from the lady member of his own Shadow Cabinet (Green, I think? Can't remember her name) was just astonishing. As the saying goes, it's better to be on the inside of the tent pissing out than the outside pissing in. In this case, it seems there are some on the inside pissing in as well.

On another note, I was amazed to see that Peston was claiming that he'd heard rumours some Labour MPs were considering crossing the floor to join the Conservatives! Career suicide for anybody even contemplating it, surely? In a similar vein, I notice that Allam is reportedly offering to fund Labour MPs to set up a new party or join the LibDems. Just how much of an idiot is that man, or is he looking to become a Tory peer?


Why do I think the worst of left wing politicians? Because in a nutshell they a bunch of Hand wringing, limp wristed, anti English, politically correct out of touch bigots!!!  Which reminds me what's your take on Diane Abbott?

And I don't believe for a moment that Corbyrn was thinking about his parents at all, a load of bullshit! he was in Corbyrn protest mode! What he should of been thinking about as a matter of respect was our brave soldiers, and as far as I'm aware his parents wasn't climbing in to cockpits during the war not knowing if they would be coming back again, they was probably hand wringing down the tube.

I take your point on Allam though he's a total head case he's more mIxed up then Liz Kendall, if I was farage or Bennet I'd definitely be tapping him up for a donation, the mans got more money then sense.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
September 18, 2015, 4:03pm
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Quoted from Grim74


Why do I think the worst of left wing politicians? Because in a nutshell they a bunch of Hand wringing, limp wristed, anti English, politically correct out of touch bigots!!!  Which reminds me what's your take on Diane Abbott?

And I don't believe for a moment that Corbyrn was thinking about his parents at all, a load of bullshit! he was in Corbyrn protest mode! What he should of been thinking about as a matter of respect was our brave soldiers, and as far as I'm aware his parents wasn't climbing in to cockpits during the war not knowing if they would be coming back again, they was probably hand wringing down the tube.


Snigger. I'm guessing you're trolling there because nobody could seriously think all left-wing politicians matched that description. Nobody with half a brain, in any case. I certainly wouldn't be as daft as to claim all right-wing politicians were corrupt, ignorant self-serving, fascistic narcissists. Just the ones in the cabinet!  

Diane Abbott isn't a very impressive politician on the national stage but then neither are most of the Tory cabinet ministers. I'd imagine she is a decent enough MP for her constituents which is all that counts in the longer term for a politician. I'd say she's certainly got a strong stomach because how else could you spend so many hours in a studio with the likes of Neil and Portillo listening to them spout various degrees of vacuous bullshite about the politics of the moment? I suppose she probably spouts her own vacuous bullshite on that programme as well so that will help take her mind off things.

A quick google shows that Corbyn's father was an electrical engineer who worked for the MoD during the war and was also a member of the Home Guard. His mother was an air raid warden. So, in other words, both served their country. They we also anti-fascists was well and reportedly fought in the Battle of Cable Street. Sound like a pretty admirable pair to me.

Good to see you're still going to the effort of trolling.
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Marinerz93
September 18, 2015, 7:14pm

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Quoted from LH
Maybe you should move to North Korea if you think everyone should sing the national anthem when they hear it?


When you are representing others you do, and North Korea have a supreme leader who is misunderstood  


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
September 18, 2015, 7:37pm

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Quoted from Maringer


Gibber.

Corbyn is indeed an atheist republican so criticising him for not singing, "God Save the Queen" (surely the worst of all national anthems), is bloody ridiculous. Moral fibre? Oh, please. For those that are claiming his failure to sing the song shows disrespect to the airmen who fought and died in the Battle of Britain, please point out to me anywhere in the lyrics of the song that praises any part of the British armed forces? Nothing there last time I looked. I don't sing the national anthem either because the fact that somebody happened to drop out of one particular girl private rather than another doesn't make them deserving of my allegiance or respect. I'm actually similar to Corbyn in many respects - republican, but don't really care about getting rid of the monarchy as I think they are probably a decent draw for foreign tourists. Would be nice if they paid a bit more in the way of taxes, however, so hopefully we'll see a Land Value Tax implented at some point or another and the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas won't find themselves exempt from paying it. For what it's worth, I think the Queen has always been very conscientious about her duties and is an admirable woman. Most of her offspring, on the other hand, tend towards the talentless parasite end of the scale.

A comparison of Corbyn and GWB is the most bizarre thing I've read on here today. One is a long-term parliamentarian who has served his constitutuents well and lives parsimoniously, sticking to his principles. The other was a rich-kid playboy who dodged the draft thanks to his wealthy parents and, in part thanks to his father's status and family's wealth, was somehow able to get himself elected as president of the US. He proceeded to start various disastrously-managed wars around the world which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, completely screwed up any minor stability in the middle east, oversaw the radicalisation of tens or hundreds of thousands of Islamists around the world due to his dreadful foreign policy and almost destroyed the US economy through right-wing economic lunacy. If you seriously think those two have anything at all in common, I want something of what you're smoking.

It is almost inevitable that Ireland will be united some day or other - the Catholic population is expanding, the Protestant population is declining so it seems likely that, at some point, there will be a considerable majority who wish to reunite (I do realise that many of the Catholics currently classify themselves as British, however). Probably several decades away at the very least before there is any chance of this occurring. Just hope that the current problems bubbling up over there can be resolved because nobody wants to see a return to the bad old days which looks like a real possibility at the moment.

Doubt that Corbyn will be able to make too many inroads in Scotland. That ship has sailed now and I can't see any way that the Scots won't be independent some time within the next 10 or 15 years. Probably sooner rather than later. However, a left-leaning coalition featuring Labour/SNP/Greens/Plaid Cymru ought to be just about achievable at some point in the future. As I've said in the past, a lot depends on whether or not the Tories manage to avoid another financial crash before the next election. I'd personally guess there is a better than 50/50 chance we will see one which would obviously be especially disastrous since most parts of the country haven't recovered from 2008 as yet, in great part thanks to the Tory policies.

I have to say, the onslaught in the media against Corbyn since Saturday has been even more rabid than I expected and, remarkably, the BBC and the Guardian seem to be almost at the forefront of it. I can understand it with the BBC which has been veering rightwards since 2010, but some of the stuff printed by the Guardian just beggars belief with many of the columnists looking to be trying out their best Daily Mail journalist impression.

I do tend to doubt Corbyn will be able to win an election but the fact he's got all areas of the establishment attacking him over the most banal of perceived misdeeds shows just how worried they are, which must surely be a good thing.


Wow you've changed my mind what a glorious leader Corbyn is and would be, someone who has sworn allegiance to the Queen but won't sing the 'National Anthem' what a guy.  For all I care the national anthem could be singing about Roses or spuds, he is representing UK Plc and that comes with certain responsibilities that have to be fulfilled.

Corbyn is likely to get cosy to SNP and negotiate Scottish Independence to get into Downing Street.  Then he can abide by his republican dream of, off loading Northern Ireland, then apologising and offering the Scots billions in damages for oppressing them hundreds of years ago whilst Northern Ireland descends into civil war.  But hey he's got a groovy beard and likes to whistle dixie

The Catholics and Protestants have been at each since well before 1690, if you think that they will want to become part of a united Ireland with it's debt, lack of financial clout and Rome rule I can see why you think Corbyn should be the one to sort it out, him and his chum think the IRA are heroes.  If Northern Ireland descends into civil war it will bring Scotland and then England into it.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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mariner91
September 18, 2015, 9:58pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


Wow you've changed my mind what a glorious leader Corbyn is and would be, someone who has sworn allegiance to the Queen but won't sing the 'National Anthem' what a guy.  For all I care the national anthem could be singing about Roses or spuds, he is representing UK Plc and that comes with certain responsibilities that have to be fulfilled.

Corbyn is likely to get cosy to SNP and negotiate Scottish Independence to get into Downing Street.  Then he can abide by his republican dream of, off loading Northern Ireland, then apologising and offering the Scots billions in damages for oppressing them hundreds of years ago whilst Northern Ireland descends into civil war.  But hey he's got a groovy beard and likes to whistle dixie

The Catholics and Protestants have been at each since well before 1690, if you think that they will want to become part of a united Ireland with it's debt, lack of financial clout and Rome rule I can see why you think Corbyn should be the one to sort it out, him and his chum think the IRA are heroes.  If Northern Ireland descends into civil war it will bring Scotland and then England into it.


What a load of guff. Why on earth would there be a civil war in England? As for not singing the national anthem, who the feck cares?! It's not a sign of moral fibre as you've so bizarrely stated and if anything, it would show less moral fibre if he backed down and started singing against his beliefs.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Marinerz93
September 18, 2015, 10:23pm

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Quoted from mariner91


What a load of guff. Why on earth would there be a civil war in England? As for not singing the national anthem, who the feck cares?! It's not a sign of moral fibre as you've so bizarrely stated and if anything, it would show less moral fibre if he backed down and started singing against his beliefs.


Exactly why GB is in the state it is in, less national pride and less understanding of why things come to be. I'm sure someone will write a thesis on it for you but will evade the point to suit their own agenda.

You see sectarianism is not confined to Ireland it is prevalent in Scotland and in parts of England.

Corbyn as leader is representing not only the people who voted him in but the system he has willingly accepted as part and parcel of his role in governing and selling the UK.  Is it not hypercritical to swear allegiance to the queen but not sing the national anthem.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
September 18, 2015, 10:29pm

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner


I'm no Corbyn supporter but what a lot of nonsense that is. Why would singing the national anthem be a sign of moral fibre? I'd have thought sticking to his beliefs and not singing it was a much greater show of moral fibre. As for him not winning any seats in Scotland - what exactly is your rationale for that one?


Fair comments and my rationale for him not winning any seats in Scotland is down to the Scottish electorate no longer trusting Westminster.
Too many broken promises and they know that more votes for SNP is means more devolution and powers for Scotland.  They are already better off per person when it comes to government spending so things can only get better for them if they keep SNP as the controlling party.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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mariner91
September 18, 2015, 10:30pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


Exactly why GB is in the state it is in, less national pride and less understanding of why things come to be. I'm sure someone will write a thesis on it for you but will evade the point to suit their own agenda.

You see sectarianism is not confined to Ireland it is prevalent in Scotland and in parts of England.

Corbyn as leader is representing not only the people who voted him in but the system he has willingly accepted as part and parcel of his role in governing and selling the UK.  Is it not hypercritical to swear allegiance to the queen but not sing the national anthem.


There are many reasons the UK is in the state it's in but less national pride is not it. Can you actually put a reason forward for that bold claim?

I would bet nearly anything I own that there is no civil war in England within the next 10 years. What absolute rubbish. There wasn't a civil war in England previously during the Troubles and there won't be now should Northern Ireland descend in to violence again.

It is not hypocritical to not sing the national anthem, he's an atheist. Or do you also expect him to be going to Anglican church services each Sunday as that is the official religion of this country? Tub-thumping sensationalism over a very small, insignificant matter.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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ska face
September 18, 2015, 10:39pm

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Quoted from Marinerz93


Exactly why GB is in the state it is in, less national pride and less understanding of why things come to be. I'm sure someone will write a thesis on it for you but will evade the point to suit their own agenda.

You see sectarianism is not confined to Ireland it is prevalent in Scotland and in parts of England.

Corbyn as leader is representing not only the people who voted him in but the system he has willingly accepted as part and parcel of his role in governing and selling the UK.  Is it not hypercritical to swear allegiance to the queen but not sing the national anthem.


Aren't you a grown man? As in a fully functioning adult? And you honestly hold that view?

God help us.

flipping national pride indeed.
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LH
September 18, 2015, 10:43pm

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I think Corbyn was representing a lot of people who feel unequal which is what he's building himself on.  I don't agree with everything he believes but I commend him for sticking to his beliefs. We need more honest politicians. The national anthem is dogshite for non-christians and republicans/those who couldn't give two shits about the monarchy.
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Marinerz93
September 18, 2015, 11:06pm

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Quoted from mariner91


There are many reasons the UK is in the state it's in but less national pride is not it. Can you actually put a reason forward for that bold claim?

I would bet nearly anything I own that there is no civil war in England within the next 10 years. What absolute rubbish. There wasn't a civil war in England previously during the Troubles and there won't be now should Northern Ireland descend in to violence again.

It is not hypocritical to not sing the national anthem, he's an atheist. Or do you also expect him to be going to Anglican church services each Sunday as that is the official religion of this country? Tub-thumping sensationalism over a very small, insignificant matter.


National pride, how is St Georges day celebrated, leading comes from the top, if the top doesn't care why should anyone else, politicians for too long have been out for themselves and now it has rubbed off on everyone else.

IF Corbyn got his dream, to unite Ireland it would be against the wishes of a large number of Protestants.  This would lead to a civil war in Northern Ireland. The trouble in Scotland through sectarianism in the past has been kept from mainstream media.  You may not have full civil war in England but you will have areas of the UK descend into violence and we'll see bombings and terrorists carrying out attacks like before, people have short memories.

There were during the 90's IRA cells and sympathisers operating all over the UK.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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mariner91
September 18, 2015, 11:11pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


National pride, how is St Georges day celebrated, leading comes from the top, if the top doesn't care why should anyone else, politicians for too long have been out for themselves and now it has rubbed off on everyone else.

IF Corbyn got his dream, to unite Ireland it would be against the wishes of a large number of Protestants.  This would lead to a civil war in Northern Ireland. The trouble in Scotland through sectarianism in the past has been kept from mainstream media.  You may not have full civil war in England but you will have areas of the UK descend into violence and we'll see bombings and terrorists carrying out attacks like before, people have short memories.

There were during the 90's IRA cells and sympathisers operating all over the UK.


Areas like Liverpool perhaps but you claimed that sectarianism is "prevalent" which is just not the case at all.

Who cares how St George's day is celebrated really? I couldn't give a monkey's. And if this means I don't have "national pride" then so be it but it certainly doesn't mean I contribute to the country any less. If anything, I'd say I contribute more than your average bloke who drapes a St George's flag around his body.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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ska face
September 18, 2015, 11:14pm

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Quoted from Marinerz93


National pride, how is St Georges day celebrated, leading comes from the top, if the top doesn't care why should anyone else, politicians for too long have been out for themselves and now it has rubbed off on everyone else.


Who gives a excrement? 1 million people begging for food, thousands homeless, whilst a woman in a diamond hat rides about in a solid-gold carriage at the tax payers' expense.

intercourse all to be proud about there, unless you've had a significant part of your brain removed.
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Marinerz93
September 18, 2015, 11:19pm

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Quoted from ska face


Aren't you a grown man? As in a fully functioning adult? And you honestly hold that view?

God help us.

flipping national pride indeed.


Thank you for your insightful response and I guess it comes down to personal pride too.  They also say that Pride goes / comes before a fall.

Are people genuinely not proud to be

Grimbarian
English
British

I have reasons to be proud of all of these.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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mariner91
September 18, 2015, 11:22pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


Thank you for your insightful response and I guess it comes down to personal pride too.  They also say that Pride goes / comes before a fall.

Are people genuinely not proud to be

Grimbarian
English
British

I have reasons to be proud of all of these.


What does being proud contribute to the country? Conversely, how does a lack of pride make things worse? It doesn't. You haven't given a single reason why "national pride" is something that positively affects the country.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Marinerz93
September 18, 2015, 11:22pm

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Quoted from ska face


Who gives a excrement? 1 million people begging for food, thousands homeless, whilst a woman in a diamond hat rides about in a solid-gold carriage at the tax payers' expense.

intercourse all to be proud about there, unless you've had a significant part of your brain removed.


1 Million people begging for food?
thousands homeless?
When was the last time you saw a woman riding around in a diamond hat in solid-gold carriage at tax payers expense?


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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ska face
September 18, 2015, 11:22pm

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I've always been of the opinion that pride should be reserved for personal achievement.

I don't class being fortunate to fall out of my mother in a specific country as much of an achievement. Clearly you do, good for you. God save Elizabeth Von Saxe-Coburg Gotha.
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ska face
September 18, 2015, 11:28pm

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Do keep up at the back -

Quoted from Marinerz93

1 Million people begging for food?


http://www.trusselltrust.org/r.....tops-one-million.pdf

Quoted Text
thousands homeless?


http://www.homeless.org.uk/facts/homelessness-in-numbers/statutory-homelessness

(not counting those rough sleeping...)

Quoted Text
When was the last time you saw a woman riding around in a diamond hat in solid-gold carriage at tax payers expense?


[img]http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/976x549_b/p00tbpk1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00411/127564306__411349c.jpg[/img]
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ginnywings
September 18, 2015, 11:36pm

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It's not Jeremy Corbyn anymore, it's left wing Jeremy Corbyn or extreme left wing Jeremy Corbyn, as if being left wing is some kind of curse. I've not once heard anyone refer to Cameron as pasty faced right wing David Cameron.
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Marinerz93
September 18, 2015, 11:41pm

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Quoted from mariner91


Areas like Liverpool perhaps but you claimed that sectarianism is "prevalent" which is just not the case at all.

Who cares how St George's day is celebrated really? I couldn't give a monkey's. And if this means I don't have "national pride" then so be it but it certainly doesn't mean I contribute to the country any less. If anything, I'd say I contribute more than your average bloke who drapes a St George's flag around his body.


You forget the Bombings in a variety of London locations, also Birmingham, Aldershot, M62, Coventry, Bristol, Caterham, Brighton, Deal, Shrewsbury, Warrington, Manchester, Reading. which as you can see is further afield than that there Liverpool.

I'd say I contribute more than your average bloke who drapes a St George's flag around his body.

You have no national pride, and have no shame about it but yet feel the need to comment, sense of guilt maybe?


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
September 19, 2015, 12:07am

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Quoted from ska face
Do keep up at the back -



http://www.trusselltrust.org/r.....tops-one-million.pdf



http://www.homeless.org.uk/facts/homelessness-in-numbers/statutory-homelessness

(not counting those rough sleeping...)



[img]http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/976x549_b/p00tbpk1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00411/127564306__411349c.jpg[/img]


People are having to use food banks for a variety of reasons I see a few genuine and a few not so genuine cases every day at work, how is this the Queens faults, this is a government issue.

I also see why people become homeless everyday and again, how is this the Queens fault, again local council issue.

You post pictures of something that was either gifted or bought generations ago, I eagerly await your 2015 pictures of the new solid gold pumpkin carriage with Queeny 1 on it bought by tax payers.

Oh I do hope it has rear view mirrors so I can see you.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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mariner91
September 19, 2015, 2:02am
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Quoted from Marinerz93



I'd say I contribute more than your average bloke who drapes a St George's flag around his body.

You have no national pride, and have no shame about it but yet feel the need to comment, sense of guilt maybe?


What on earth are you on about? Sense of guilt over what? Waving the St George's flag, celebrating St George's day and belting out the National Anthem are not things that make me particularly proud about England cause frankly it proves nothing. Every country has it's flag and a national anthem, ours aren't particularly amazing or impressive so why be "proud" of them?. I am proud of some of the countries achievements but I don't feel the need to show it. One of the things that we can be proud of is the NHS (which Corbyn would protect and not sell off like Cameron). I work for the NHS but perhaps I should get St George tattooed on my bicep and then I'd be doing this country a much greater service? And of course, I can contribute even more if I sing the national anthem loudly at any given opportunity.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Grim74
September 19, 2015, 6:59am
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Quoted from mariner91


What a load of guff. Why on earth would there be a civil war in England? As for not singing the national anthem, who the feck cares?! It's not a sign of moral fibre as you've so bizarrely stated and if anything, it would show less moral fibre if he backed down and started singing against his beliefs.


Which is exactly what he is going to do by Al accounts.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Grim74
September 19, 2015, 7:48am
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Quoted from ska face
Do keep up at the back -



http://www.trusselltrust.org/r.....tops-one-million.pdf



http://www.homeless.org.uk/facts/homelessness-in-numbers/statutory-homelessness

(not counting those rough sleeping...)



[img]http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/976x549_b/p00tbpk1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00411/127564306__411349c.jpg[/img]


You must be quite gullible to take in the food bank nonsense, but the stats on the homeless goes to show what a fool Corbyrn is by demanding the government take in the migrants yes migrants that are currently infesting Europe.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Grim74
September 19, 2015, 7:58am
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Quoted from mariner91


What on earth are you on about? Sense of guilt over what? Waving the St George's flag, celebrating St George's day and belting out the National Anthem are not things that make me particularly proud about England cause frankly it proves nothing. Every country has it's flag and a national anthem, ours aren't particularly amazing or impressive so why be "proud" of them?. I am proud of some of the countries achievements but I don't feel the need to show it. One of the things that we can be proud of is the NHS (which Corbyn would protect and not sell off like Cameron). I work for the NHS but perhaps I should get St George tattooed on my bicep and then I'd be doing this country a much greater service? And of course, I can contribute even more if I sing the national anthem loudly at any given opportunity.


makes me laugh when the labour supporters come out with this tripe when it was their party that started the sell off,I bet some fool at work we will still have an NHS after a full Tory term in goverment.



Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Marinerz93
September 19, 2015, 10:56am

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Quoted from mariner91


What on earth are you on about? Sense of guilt over what? Waving the St George's flag, celebrating St George's day and belting out the National Anthem are not things that make me particularly proud about England cause frankly it proves nothing. Every country has it's flag and a national anthem, ours aren't particularly amazing or impressive so why be "proud" of them?. I am proud of some of the countries achievements but I don't feel the need to show it. One of the things that we can be proud of is the NHS (which Corbyn would protect and not sell off like Cameron). I work for the NHS but perhaps I should get St George tattooed on my bicep and then I'd be doing this country a much greater service? And of course, I can contribute even more if I sing the national anthem loudly at any given opportunity.


I've worked in a hospital on medical and dental equipment, I know that the reasons why the NHS is struggling, the extortionate cost of equipment, the training of staff to use that equipment and the extortionate prices of pharmaceuticals.  The shocking amount consultants are paid for the hours they do and the red tape and over burdening of managers. None of which have been sorted by any of the parties in power.

I don't like the torries, I have supported Labour all my life but for me Corbyn should never have left the back benches.

Your comment about you being better than the average person draped in an England flag speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.

What part of the NHS do you work in?


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Grim74
September 19, 2015, 11:35am
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Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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mariner91
September 19, 2015, 1:13pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


I've worked in a hospital on medical and dental equipment, I know that the reasons why the NHS is struggling, the extortionate cost of equipment, the training of staff to use that equipment and the extortionate prices of pharmaceuticals.  The shocking amount consultants are paid for the hours they do and the red tape and over burdening of managers. None of which have been sorted by any of the parties in power.

I don't like the torries, I have supported Labour all my life but for me Corbyn should never have left the back benches.

Your comment about you being better than the average person draped in an England flag speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.

What part of the NHS do you work in?


Find that quote. In recent years the showing of "national pride" has generally been by far right groups like the EDL whose members, generally, don't look like they add much to society to be perfectly honest. But if singing the national anthem loudly and dressing yourself in a flag is what classes you as a decent, functioning member of society then I'm afraid to say that I am not someone who adds anything to this country. Obviously, as your infinite wisdom has shown, people such as myself and the many others who don't feel the need to put on a public display of nationalism are the reasons behind the struggles in this country as we clearly do not contribute.

Nationalism is such an outdated and pointless ideology that leads to xenophobia and a bizarre sense of superiority. Who the hell cares what country someone is from? What does it matter? What matters is their personal achievements, the way they treat others and their contribution to society. Every country has positives and every country has negatives. There are some things I'm proud of the UK for but there are other things which I'm really not.

I work in the dental department at Guys and Tommie's hospitals.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Marinerz93
September 19, 2015, 3:33pm

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Quoted from mariner91


Find that quote. In recent years the showing of "national pride" has generally been by far right groups like the EDL whose members, generally, don't look like they add much to society to be perfectly honest. But if singing the national anthem loudly and dressing yourself in a flag is what classes you as a decent, functioning member of society then I'm afraid to say that I am not someone who adds anything to this country. Obviously, as your infinite wisdom has shown, people such as myself and the many others who don't feel the need to put on a public display of nationalism are the reasons behind the struggles in this country as we clearly do not contribute.

Nationalism is such an outdated and pointless ideology that leads to xenophobia and a bizarre sense of superiority. Who the hell cares what country someone is from? What does it matter? What matters is their personal achievements, the way they treat others and their contribution to society. Every country has positives and every country has negatives. There are some things I'm proud of the UK for but there are other things which I'm really not.

I work in the dental department at Guys and Tommie's hospitals.


Quoted from mariner91


Areas like Liverpool perhaps but you claimed that sectarianism is "prevalent" which is just not the case at all.

Who cares how St George's day is celebrated really? I couldn't give a monkey's. And if this means I don't have "national pride" then so be it but it certainly doesn't mean I contribute to the country any less. If anything, I'd say I contribute more than your average bloke who drapes a St George's flag around his body.


Far right groups have always been on the periphery of most European countries for decades they are not new.  They have more media exposure than before and I don't see any skin heads walking around like they did on daily basis when I was growing up, EDL and other far right groups march every now and then which the police manage very well.  What is new though is Islamic terrorists and fanatics wanting to kill and injure innocent people just because they don't believe in their version of God.  Acts of violence is usually met by acts of violence yet you single out the EDL. The National Front has been around for decades, why did the EDL come into existence? Have a look at what is happening in Sweden with their open door policy.

[youtube]193lxzrJV8U[/youtube]

People like you have a problem with not understanding where people come from and their values, this is why there is a lack of national pride.  People from other countries do not hold a lot of the values we do.  It's not just Muslim countries were women, children and animals get a rough deal. People from Romania, Bulgaria, and other European eastern countries that are settling in the UK aren't integrating and are bringing their way of life with them, problems such as human trafficking, stealing from clothes banks on business scale and horrendous treatment of animals.

If you are proud to be English, British and show it, you get people like yourself calling those people either xenophobic or racist.  I've worked and lived in more than a handful of countries around the world and national pride isn't as frowned upon in those countries as it is here.  


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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ska face
September 19, 2015, 4:14pm

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Quoted from Marinerz93


People are having to use food banks for a variety of reasons I see a few genuine and a few not so genuine cases every day at work, how is this the Queens faults, this is a government issue.

I also see why people become homeless everyday and again, how is this the Queens fault, again local council issue.

You post pictures of something that was either gifted or bought generations ago, I eagerly await your 2015 pictures of the new solid gold pumpkin carriage with Queeny 1 on it bought by tax payers.

Oh I do hope it has rear view mirrors so I can see you.


It pains me to have to explain this to you. Surely you're not that thick?

I'm clearly not saying homelessness is the Queen's fault - I'm merely holding her and her disgusting wealth up as an example of why some people find very little to be proud about at the same time that well over a million people have had to go begging for food. You're the one trying to shove your "national pride" agenda down everyone's throats and follow your daft gang of forelock-tugging, servile lickspittles in bending the knee for this flipping German relic - why? Because everything would be fantastic if people waved flags about and everyone got a day off work for St George? Do me a favour.
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Maringer
September 19, 2015, 6:17pm
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Quoted from Grim74


You must be quite gullible to take in the food bank nonsense, but the stats on the homeless goes to show what a fool Corbyrn is by demanding the government take in the migrants yes migrants that are currently infesting Europe.


Come on then. Here's a challenge. If somebody is telling porky pies about over 1,000,000 people being fed by food banks during 2014/2015, I'm sure you'll be able to provide evidence that information is entirely untrue. Also, please, no nonsense claims that "It was free food so people took it" which seems to be the favourite (easily disproved) myth used by right-wing naysayers.

When the 'benefit cap' is implemented and the working tax credits are slashed, I can't see any way that this number won't balloon in size. If over 1 million needed to use a food bank last year, what will happen when some earners as the lower end of the income scale lose hundreds or even thousands of pounds due to loss of tax credits?
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mariner91
September 19, 2015, 6:46pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93




Far right groups have always been on the periphery of most European countries for decades they are not new.  They have more media exposure than before and I don't see any skin heads walking around like they did on daily basis when I was growing up, EDL and other far right groups march every now and then which the police manage very well.  What is new though is Islamic terrorists and fanatics wanting to kill and injure innocent people just because they don't believe in their version of God.  Acts of violence is usually met by acts of violence yet you single out the EDL. The National Front has been around for decades, why did the EDL come into existence? Have a look at what is happening in Sweden with their open door policy.

[youtube]193lxzrJV8U[/youtube]

People like you have a problem with not understanding where people come from and their values, this is why there is a lack of national pride.  People from other countries do not hold a lot of the values we do.  It's not just Muslim countries were women, children and animals get a rough deal. People from Romania, Bulgaria, and other European eastern countries that are settling in the UK aren't integrating and are bringing their way of life with them, problems such as human trafficking, stealing from clothes banks on business scale and horrendous treatment of animals.

If you are proud to be English, British and show it, you get people like yourself calling those people either xenophobic or racist.  I've worked and lived in more than a handful of countries around the world and national pride isn't as frowned upon in those countries as it is here.  


The irony of this post is just ridiculous. You're claiming not to be xenophobic then post that which is clearly xenophobic. The percentage of Muslims in this country who participate in terror acts is so incredibly low. Yes there are problems of integration in some areas of the countries and with some ethnic groups. But it is far from universal and the vast majority come here and integrate just fine. I live in one of the most ethnically diverse areas of the country and haven't had a single problem and I've been here well over a year. I live with a buddhist, a hindu and a Polish lad and we get on just fine. I don't think you can judge someone's values by their nationality or race but if you want to live a simplistic life, or perhaps you need to live one,  where you pigeon hole people then go for it.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Maringer
September 19, 2015, 6:53pm
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Quoted from Grim74


Nick Cohen? Oh, please.

You're quoting an article from The Spectator, a magazine which couldn't be more part of the Tory establishment if it tried. As for Cohen, he's been writing screeds against the 'left' for a decade (lots of plugs for his book in that article), he's about as anti-Corbyn as you can get, being a cheerleader for the Iraq War, an outspoken critic of "Stop the War" and a big fan of Israeli policy in general, from what I can tell. A strange combination of somebody who holds many left-wing social views but spends his time railing against 'the left' because most of his politics appear to be right-wing.

During the leadership campaign Cohen wrote an article in the Guardian criticising all the other candidates for not running a better campaign than Corbyn which quickly descended into the usual bullshite about Corbyn's 'extremist' views which of course misrepresented all the facts. Pretty much a watered down version of the Spectator article, actually, claiming that all Corbyn stands for is an extreme left of the party taking an "us versus them" attitude which is utterly ridiculous when you consider how many attacks Corbyn has faced from both the Blairites as well as supposed moderates. Cohen's article simply ignores the enormous number of attacks which have come Corbyn's way from the Blairites for months just so he can try to blame the 'far left' for everything which goes wrong.
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Marinerz93
September 19, 2015, 8:49pm

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Quoted from ska face


It pains me to have to explain this to you. Surely you're not that thick?

I'm clearly not saying homelessness is the Queen's fault - I'm merely holding her and her disgusting wealth up as an example of why some people find very little to be proud about at the same time that well over a million people have had to go begging for food. You're the one trying to shove your "national pride" agenda down everyone's throats and follow your daft gang of forelock-tugging, servile lickspittles in bending the knee for this flipping German relic - why? Because everything would be fantastic if people waved flags about and everyone got a day off work for St George? Do me a favour.


The majority of that disgusting wealth isn't hers though is it, she can't sell it off and nob off to that lovely republica you dream of can she, again you have missed the part where a good sum of that disgusting wealth has been given to her/this country by foreign dignitaries over centuries.

The others I can agree with you, don't deserve a bean but the Queen is representing UK interests and she will bring into this country more business than your bitter and twisted republic ever could.

The Queen costs every UK tax payer around 50p  - 60p which roughly equals £35 million.  I give more than 20 times that away in charity every month.

The real villains in all this are tax shifting companies, if the government taxed overseas companies, the revenue generated would vastly overshadow what the Queen gets and would more likely be in the billions, still the Queen is an easy target for a Starbucks drinking, Amazon shopper like yourself.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2287216/Revealed-One-UKs-companies-pay-tax.html

[youtube]83n3X0S_lFE[/youtube]



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
September 19, 2015, 8:55pm

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Quoted from Maringer


Come on then. Here's a challenge. If somebody is telling porky pies about over 1,000,000 people being fed by food banks during 2014/2015, I'm sure you'll be able to provide evidence that information is entirely untrue. Also, please, no nonsense claims that "It was free food so people took it" which seems to be the favourite (easily disproved) myth used by right-wing naysayers.

When the 'benefit cap' is implemented and the working tax credits are slashed, I can't see any way that this number won't balloon in size. If over 1 million needed to use a food bank last year, what will happen when some earners as the lower end of the income scale lose hundreds or even thousands of pounds due to loss of tax credits?


1,000,000 people claiming 3 days food, not a million people claiming food 360 days of the year.  It's a number that has numerous permutations, some will be short term, some long term.  

Food banks shouldn't exist, people shouldn't go hungry and it's a shameful legacy that labour and the conservatives are guilty of not tackling, the same as homelessness.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
September 19, 2015, 9:18pm

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Quoted from mariner91


The irony of this post is just ridiculous. You're claiming not to be xenophobic then post that which is clearly xenophobic. The percentage of Muslims in this country who participate in terror acts is so incredibly low. Yes there are problems of integration in some areas of the countries and with some ethnic groups. But it is far from universal and the vast majority come here and integrate just fine. I live in one of the most ethnically diverse areas of the country and haven't had a single problem and I've been here well over a year. I live with a buddhist, a hindu and a Polish lad and we get on just fine. I don't think you can judge someone's values by their nationality or race but if you want to live a simplistic life, or perhaps you need to live one,  where you pigeon hole people then go for it.


I clearly attached a video for you to see what the Muslim says at the end to the woman with regards to what law they follow in this country. It wasn't a small protest and Muslims have marched more in this country than EDL / National Front.  I also listed problems that are inherent with people coming from Eastern Europe but you may have missed that because you saw your shining moment to claim Islamaphobia / xenophobia. You haven't answered my point about Sweden, did you get buffer face ignoring it?

There is a vast difference between living with a mix of people than living in their country like I have.  I have lived and worked in several European countries, also Canada, Oman, and Saudi Arabia.  I'll take my actual working and living in these countries than your one house experience.

As a side note to your house experience I have found Buddhists and Hindus generally very peaceful people, the Poles I have found are a bit like us. Is that Xenophobic? I'd like for you to go and live with Romanians, Bulgarians, and people who originate from the middle east and let me know how you get on, it would certainly be interesting to hear your views then.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Maringer
September 19, 2015, 9:42pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


1,000,000 people claiming 3 days food, not a million people claiming food 360 days of the year.  It's a number that has numerous permutations, some will be short term, some long term.  

Food banks shouldn't exist, people shouldn't go hungry and it's a shameful legacy that labour and the conservatives are guilty of not tackling, the same as homelessness.


I never claimed a million people used food banks every day of the year! However, the fact that the number tripled between 2012/13 and 2013/14 (then just a 10% bump last year) is very telling of the state of things for some of the poorest in our society.

You're correct that it is shameful that the 6th wealthiest country in the world should have so many people relying on charity to be fed. However, I'm not quite sure why you're lumping in Labour with the same amount of blame as the Coalition/Tories? Here's the stats:

http://www.trusselltrust.org/stats

26,000 in 2008/09 was bad enough for such a wealthy country, but it has increased 20-fold since 2010 and it's not just coincidence. New Labour had many faults, but they did generally make sure that the poorest in the country weren't struggling too badly. The Tories, on the other hand, have just made even more cuts to tax credits (plus the reduced benefit cap, of course) whilst at the same time changing inheritance tax to give even more money to the children of the wealthy! You really couldn't make it up.
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Maringer
September 19, 2015, 9:46pm
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As regards the Queen, don't forget the cost of personal protection for the Royal family. The £37 million or so which is the official cost forgets all the policing/bodyguards etc which I've seen some estimates cost at £100 million per year!

Liz isn't doing too badly, though. Even without the Crown estate and stuff she has no control over and can't sell, she's reportedly worth around £200 million. The Duchy of Cornwall which provides Charlieboy with his very generous income is supposedly worth around £750 million so he's not quite on his uppers.
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mariner91
September 19, 2015, 10:00pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


I clearly attached a video for you to see what the Muslim says at the end to the woman with regards to what law they follow in this country. It wasn't a small protest and Muslims have marched more in this country than EDL / National Front.  I also listed problems that are inherent with people coming from Eastern Europe but you may have missed that because you saw your shining moment to claim Islamaphobia / xenophobia. You haven't answered my point about Sweden, did you get buffer face ignoring it?

There is a vast difference between living with a mix of people than living in their country like I have.  I have lived and worked in several European countries, also Canada, Oman, and Saudi Arabia.  I'll take my actual working and living in these countries than your one house experience.

As a side note to your house experience I have found Buddhists and Hindus generally very peaceful people, the Poles I have found are a bit like us. Is that Xenophobic? I'd like for you to go and live with Romanians, Bulgarians, and people who originate from the middle east and let me know how you get on, it would certainly be interesting to hear your views then.


It's a completely different situation moving to another country than having them move here. You can't claim they don't integrate from your experiences abroad, it's not the same thing. I work with a Romanian girl, she's lovely. She certainly doesn't indulge in any of the behaviour you've suggested but who doesn't love a bigoted sweeping statement? I've also had a friend of my flatmates in the flat tonight who is Muslim but I suppose he was just plotting his Jihadist attacks against us. Equally, perhaps I should be ashamed and have my passport revoked because the meal we ate contained halal chicken.

I didn't answer the point about Sweden because I can't be bothered to go look it up, it's not even relevant to the integration in this country as it's not in this country. It's extremely tiresome and I really can't be bothered to argue with your insular viewpoint, I think it's sad you hold the strong views you do and that you don't judge people on their own individual merit but to each their own.

P.s butterface http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=butter+face Not entirely sure what you were trying to suggest. My face isn't great admittedly but neither is the rest of me.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Marinerz93
September 19, 2015, 10:05pm

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Quoted from Maringer

However, I'm not quite sure why you're lumping in Labour with the same amount of blame as the Coalition/Tories

As regards the Queen, don't forget the cost of personal protection for the Royal family. The £37 million or so which is the official cost forgets all the policing/bodyguards etc which I've seen some estimates cost at £100 million per year!

Liz isn't doing too badly, though. Even without the Crown estate and stuff she has no control over and can't sell, she's reportedly worth around £200 million. The Duchy of Cornwall which provides Charlieboy with his very generous income is supposedly worth around £750 million so he's not quite on his uppers.


Fair points about the protection of Police/body guards/military, although not covered by the Queen  they do come from other budgets which should be taken into account.  Even so, it is still considerably smaller than the billions owed by tax dodging companies.

The spiral of homelessness and reliance on food banks didn't start the day the Coalition/Tories came to power, it started well before then and the Torries have shamefully just kept increasing it every year.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Maringer
September 20, 2015, 12:19am
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Quoted from Marinerz93

The spiral of homelessness and reliance on food banks didn't start the day the Coalition/Tories came to power, it started well before then and the Torries have shamefully just kept increasing it every year.


Well, yeah, but the Coalition/Tories have increased use of food banks 20-fold since they got into power. I realise there has been an extension in food bank provision which will have led to an increase in numbers to some degree, but then this has only been possible and necessary due to the excrement which has been heaped on the poorest in society. Something which is now getting worse due to the latest round of cuts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no great fan of the last 'New' Labour government who wasted their mandate (Blair especially) to improve things a good deal but, compared to the Tories, they are practically saints.

Let's see where we are in 12 months time. It think it is quite probable that the latest round of cuts will lead to some really catastrophic problems in our society. The Tories surely won't be able to successfully blame the previous government for that, despite whatever their friends in the media say?
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Marinerz93
September 20, 2015, 9:33am

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Quoted from Maringer


Don't get me wrong, I'm no great fan of the last 'New' Labour government who wasted their mandate (Blair especially) to improve things a good deal but, compared to the Tories, they are practically saints.

Let's see where we are in 12 months time. It think it is quite probable that the latest round of cuts will lead to some really catastrophic problems in our society. The Tories surely won't be able to successfully blame the previous government for that, despite whatever their friends in the media say?


Whilst we have common ground on food banks and homelessness on how they shame the government have you seen 10 of Corbyns Polices in the telewag

http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.....33-detail/story.html

1. Renationalisation of the railways - That'll be a YES from me, not sure how this will work or how much it will cost.

2. Scrapping nuclear weapons - Reduce yes but not scrap, so NO for me.

3. Talking to terrorist groups - Terrorist always state what they want, the only reason to talk is if there is common ground that will stop the violence. otherwise it means giving in, so NO.

4. Scrapping tuition fees - YES

5. Taxing the rich - YES but lets also go after dividends which is also a loop hole for people to pay themselves the minimum wage to pay less tax then pocket vast amounts of money without paying tax.

6. Not bombing Syria - You mean he wants ISIS to gain over all control of Syria thus creating the most extreme Islamic state which will then train even more fanatics to spread to other countries.  I disagree so NO, tactical bombing will be necessary as ISIS gains more control of Syria.

7. Cutting less and spending more - YES, especially in infrastructure and housing.

8. Capping rent levels - YES

9. Allowing Immigration - Need some clarification on this one, I want a points based system like Australia / Canada, so NOT SURE.

10. Getting rid of the Royal family - Hangers on Yes, the Queen No. NOT SURE, so need clarification.

How I scored

Yes - 5
No - 3
Not sure - 2

The sticking points for me as you can see are (2) Scrapping nuclear weapons, (3) Talking to terrorists, (6) Bombing of Syria.  Also his stance on Ireland.  Open to debate the NO's if there is meat to the bones so to speak but the sticking points for me are reason enough to never vote Labour whilst he is in charge.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Rodley Mariner
September 20, 2015, 9:43am
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Quoted from Marinerz93


6. Not bombing Syria - You mean he wants ISIS to gain over all control of Syria thus creating the most extreme Islamic state which will then train even more fanatics to spread to other countries.  I disagree so NO, tactical bombing will be necessary as ISIS gains more control of Syria.



Yes that is clearly what he wants if he doesn't want to bomb Syria. You've posted some proper shite in this thread.
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Marinerz93
September 20, 2015, 11:07am

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner


Yes that is clearly what he wants if he doesn't want to bomb Syria. You've posted some proper shite in this thread.


Thank you for your civil response, what a lovely human being you are, could you break down the shite for me so that I may learn from your superior knowledge and understanding of how the world works.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Grim74
September 20, 2015, 11:24am
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Quoted from Maringer


Come on then. Here's a challenge. If somebody is telling porky pies about over 1,000,000 people being fed by food banks during 2014/2015, I'm sure you'll be able to provide evidence that information is entirely untrue. Also, please, no nonsense claims that "It was free food so people took it" which seems to be the favourite (easily disproved) myth used by right-wing naysayers.

When the 'benefit cap' is implemented and the working tax credits are slashed, I can't see any way that this number won't balloon in size. If over 1 million needed to use a food bank last year, what will happen when some earners as the lower end of the income scale lose hundreds or even thousands of pounds due to loss of tax credits?


Ive had this debate with you before do you not take anything on board do you hate veing wrong, but just to recap -
The whole food system is supply led, not demand led, the more food they get donated the more they will have to give away, blaming benefit cuts is a lie.
The 1000000 figure you quote is typical Guardian falsifying, 1000000 is the number of requests for food rather than individual recipients like YOU make out.
Some facts for you to chew on -
https://fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/food_bank_number-40853

Just remember these food banks came in under the labour goverment as a supplement to the welfare benefit, not as a result of welfare cuts, now as a result the poverty industry are churning them out faster then pound land shops, so by blaming the goverment for increased numbers really does make you look a foolish, do you really think the food bank fashion would come to a sudden halt under your beloved labour party come on get real.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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grimsby pete
September 20, 2015, 11:24am

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Having visited many countries in my lifetime ,

I am proud to say I am British,

I am even more proud to say I am English,

More than that I am even more proud to say I come from Grimsby.

When you see how some people have to live abroad England / Britain is the best place to live,

There is poverty every where in the world,

You just have to go just outside Las Vegas with all its money to see people living in broken down shacks,

Communist counties like Bulgaria and the old Yugoslavia most people had nothing,

Things are changing now and every body wants what we have,

So I do not think we should be calling the way we live most people in the world would love to live here,

As far as Corbyn goes I like his honesty but not all he believes in or what he would like to do,

I do not see him ever becoming prime minister,

BUT

He has certainly started people talking about politics a lot

Finally I am proud I have a flag pole in my garden flying the St George flag,

I just wish I could get one with GRIMSBY TOWN CHAMPIONS on it to fly.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                             68 Years following the Town

                              Life member of Trust

                               First game   April 1955
                               
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Rodley Mariner
September 20, 2015, 11:29am
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The bit where you state not wanting to bomb Syria means Corbyn wants a ISIS controlled Syria. That was the shite that caught my eye. You talk about people chucking around accusations of nationalism and xenophobia but what do you expect when you clearly believe you can class people entirely along national lines with drivel like 'Poles are like us' and 'you try living with people from X, Y and Z'.
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Grim74
September 20, 2015, 11:32am
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How is nonsense anyway to suggest by offering free food people will take it??? Makes perfectsense to me, if I open a pub with free beer I'm sure there would be a very long que outside the door and most of them wouldn't be genuinely in need of a free alcohol.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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barralad
September 20, 2015, 11:41am
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I havent contributed to this thread. I didnt vote for Corbyn but the furore over the national dirge and now his refusal to accept a freebie to the rugby on Friday because horror of horrors he was holding a surgery for the people who elected him (whatever next!!) is beyond hysterical.
As for talking to terrorists the only example of conflict being solved byy brute force I can remember in the last 40 years or so was the Sri Lankan government's "victory" over the Tamil Tigers. The decision to get the Republicans and the Unionists round the table was for me one of the great diplomatic moves of the last 50 years and was a very brave decision by the leaders involved. The peace agreement wasnt universally welcomed and anyone familiar with the Irish history of the 1920s and the fate of Michael Collins will know what risks Adams et al took.
I was reading elswhere about Corbyn's attitude to the Falklands. For me it's a moot point but thanks to the cuts made by this Government I'd seriously question our capability to launch another task force should it go pear shaped...


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Joseph Joubert.
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Rodley Mariner
September 20, 2015, 11:42am
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Now M93 can tell us what the 'Argies' are like.
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Zmariner
September 20, 2015, 11:49am
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Quoted from Marinerz93


Whilst we have common ground on food banks and homelessness on how they shame the government have you seen 10 of Corbyns Polices in the telewag

http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.....33-detail/story.html

1. Renationalisation of the railways - That'll be a YES from me, not sure how this will work or how much it will cost.

2. Scrapping nuclear weapons - Reduce yes but not scrap, so NO for me.

3. Talking to terrorist groups - Terrorist always state what they want, the only reason to talk is if there is common ground that will stop the violence. otherwise it means giving in, so NO.

4. Scrapping tuition fees - YES

5. Taxing the rich - YES but lets also go after dividends which is also a loop hole for people to pay themselves the minimum wage to pay less tax then pocket vast amounts of money without paying tax.

6. Not bombing Syria - You mean he wants ISIS to gain over all control of Syria thus creating the most extreme Islamic state which will then train even more fanatics to spread to other countries.  I disagree so NO, tactical bombing will be necessary as ISIS gains more control of Syria.

7. Cutting less and spending more - YES, especially in infrastructure and housing.

8. Capping rent levels - YES

9. Allowing Immigration - Need some clarification on this one, I want a points based system like Australia / Canada, so NOT SURE.

10. Getting rid of the Royal family - Hangers on Yes, the Queen No. NOT SURE, so need clarification.

How I scored

Yes - 5
No - 3
Not sure - 2

The sticking points for me as you can see are (2) Scrapping nuclear weapons, (3) Talking to terrorists, (6) Bombing of Syria.  Also his stance on Ireland.  Open to debate the NO's if there is meat to the bones so to speak but the sticking points for me are reason enough to never vote Labour whilst he is in charge.


FYI dividends are taxed from the last budget
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barralad
September 20, 2015, 11:56am
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Grim74...There isnt really much similarity between a foodbank and you opening a free beer pub UNLESS you are going to have some sort of qualifying criteria. Applications for help with food from banks are usually controlled by aid agencies such as Social Services etc. and the qualifying conditions can be quite strict. One of the other reasons for the vast increase is the ending of the crisis loan system by DWP even when the crisis has been caused by a failure to pay benefit on time. Another result of the huge cutbacks in staff within that departmemt..


The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

Joseph Joubert.
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ginnywings
September 20, 2015, 12:37pm

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There's about to be more "freeloaders" in the queue for food now that that nice Mr Osbourne is reported to be about to scrap free school dinners, despite saying he wouldn't in his manifesto.
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Maringer
September 20, 2015, 1:10pm
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Quoted from Grim74


Ive had this debate with you before do you not take anything on board do you hate veing wrong, but just to recap -
The whole food system is supply led, not demand led, the more food they get donated the more they will have to give away, blaming benefit cuts is a lie.
The 1000000 figure you quote is typical Guardian falsifying, 1000000 is the number of requests for food rather than individual recipients like YOU make out.
Some facts for you to chew on -
https://fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/food_bank_number-40853

Just remember these food banks came in under the labour goverment as a supplement to the welfare benefit, not as a result of welfare cuts, now as a result the poverty industry are churning them out faster then pound land shops, so by blaming the goverment for increased numbers really does make you look a foolish, do you really think the food bank fashion would come to a sudden halt under your beloved labour party come on get real.


Interesting link there. The fullfact thing notes the 1,000,000 uses was not to individuals, but then the Trussell Trust notes this in it's stats:

http://www.trusselltrust.org/stats

So, with an average of two instances per person per annum that is somewhere around half a million people supported by Trussell Trust food banks. Note also that the TT provised just half of the food banks in the UK. If the figures of the other food banks match those of the TT, then we could be around the 1,000,000 individuals mark. No statistics to show this one way or the other, however.

Your comments that the food banks were somehow brought in by the Labour government to bolster the welfare system is utterly bizarre! The food banks were set up by charitable organisations to meet a need, a need which clearly increased following the recession caused by the financial crash back in 2008. The appalling recovery following this recession thanks to Osbornomics means that the poorest haven't even got back to the income levels of 2008 and inflation has only been down to zero recently so it is clear that they are worse off. Of course, the benefits cuts during the last parliament and the further cuts just passed make the situation even more precarious.

Look, it's clear that you don't believe, well, pretty much anything about the poor struggling to get by in the current system. You've entirely bought into the "skivers vs strivers" narrative of your favoured party.

So, explain this to me. As the IFS notes in the link below low income households lost the most money due to tax and benefits changes during the last parliament:

http://election2015.ifs.org.uk/distributional-analysis

So, the poorest 30% or so have lost up to 2% of their total income due to tax/benefit changes at the same time that annual inflation was averaging around 3% (which didn't even drop below 2% until 2014). Cumulatively, that's an increase of well over 10% in prices whilst their income has been cut, so why would you possibly think that the poorest in society wouldn't be struggling to put food on the table, especially when wage growth was pretty much non-existent until the past 12 months or so?

Similarly, why do you think that the new tax credit cuts and increased benefit cap just passed won't lead to more of the poorest in society struggling to put food on the table? Inflation might be at zero now but, as this IFS chart shows, the bottom 20% of earners stand to lose over 10% of their income over the next 5 years!

http://twitter.com/TheIFS/status/619133104893108225/photo/1

The poorest are already down well over 10% in real income over the past parliament and now they are to lose another 10%? Come on, explain how this won't lead to real hardship, especially at a time when rental prices are increasing twice as fast as wages!
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Grim74
September 20, 2015, 1:35pm
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Quoted from barralad
Grim74...There isnt really much similarity between a foodbank and you opening a free beer pub UNLESS you are going to have some sort of qualifying criteria. Applications for help with food from banks are usually controlled by aid agencies such as Social Services etc. and the qualifying conditions can be quite strict. One of the other reasons for the vast increase is the ending of the crisis loan system by DWP even when the crisis has been caused by a failure to pay benefit on time. Another result of the huge cutbacks in staff within that departmemt..


Trussesell have 27000 'care professionals' who can give away vouchers to anyone they want, there are many many reports of people abuseing the system which in turn makes a mockery of the recipient figures, there is absolutely nothing in place to stop people touring different voucher agencies and then useing different addresses with their made up sob stories.
I wasn't aware the crisis loans had stopped but there is still a lot of safety nets in place, for the few people that do fall through the net these food banks are a great supplement and it's a shame they get abused.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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ginnywings
September 20, 2015, 2:25pm

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"One of my favourite philosophical tenets, is that people will only agree with you if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds."

Frank Zappa.
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Marinerz93
September 20, 2015, 6:06pm

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner
The bit where you state not wanting to bomb Syria means Corbyn wants a ISIS controlled Syria. That was the shite that caught my eye. You talk about people chucking around accusations of nationalism and xenophobia but what do you expect when you clearly believe you can class people entirely along national lines with drivel like 'Poles are like us' and 'you try living with people from X, Y and Z'.


I'm talking about bombing ISIS positions in Syria not Asad. By not bombing ISIS positions in Syria you are condoning what will happen once they gain control. Not our problem, the refugees looking to get into Britain are making it our problem. A leader / potential leader would act, not sit on his hands.

This is all about a Gas pipeline, Asad won't allow it because it will weaken Russia.  The Turks who will benefit from a gas pipe line have been caught sending weapons to ISIS.  This is going to get much worse with far more suffering.

ISIS needs to challenged head on or you can wait for them to come to you, are you struggling to understand what ISIS is about.



Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
September 20, 2015, 6:09pm

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner
Now M93 can tell us what the 'Argies' are like.


They are sharp objects of the highest order, you''ll get on well with them  


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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barralad
September 20, 2015, 6:43pm
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Crisis Loans have been stopped for more than two years. They were stopped on the premise that a large proportion claiming one was abusing the system. Now it seems the same accusations are being levelled against the users of foodbanks. This country is damaged beyond repair...


The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

Joseph Joubert.
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ginnywings
September 20, 2015, 6:52pm

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Quoted from barralad
Crisis Loans have been stopped for more than two years. They were stopped on the premise that a large proportion claiming one was abusing the system. Now it seems the same accusations are being levelled against the users of foodbanks. This country is damaged beyond repair...


Quite. Divide and rule is the Tory way and they have succeeded spectacularly.
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Rodley Mariner
September 20, 2015, 7:36pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


I'm talking about bombing ISIS positions in Syria not Asad. By not bombing ISIS positions in Syria you are condoning what will happen once they gain control. Not our problem, the refugees looking to get into Britain are making it our problem. A leader / potential leader would act, not sit on his hands.

This is all about a Gas pipeline, Asad won't allow it because it will weaken Russia.  The Turks who will benefit from a gas pipe line have been caught sending weapons to ISIS.  This is going to get much worse with far more suffering.

ISIS needs to challenged head on or you can wait for them to come to you, are you struggling to understand what ISIS is about.



I'm condoning nothing and nor have I expressed my opinion on whether we should or shouldn't bomb ISIS in Syria. I was just pointing out some of the shite you posted about what Corbyn 'wanted'. If I wanted hyperbolic right wing nonsense I'd buy the Daily Mail. When Grim74 is the only one who agrees with you that should set alarm bells ringing!
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Marinerz93
September 20, 2015, 9:58pm

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner


I'm condoning nothing and nor have I expressed my opinion on whether we should or shouldn't bomb ISIS in Syria. I was just pointing out some of the shite you posted about what Corbyn 'wanted'. If I wanted hyperbolic right wing nonsense I'd buy the Daily Mail. When Grim74 is the only one who agrees with you that should set alarm bells ringing!


I wasn't talking about you per say when I said

By not bombing ISIS positions in Syria you are condoning what will happen once they gain control. Not our problem, the refugees looking to get into Britain are making it our problem. A leader / potential leader would act, not sit on his hands.

We are talking about Corbyn's position should he get into power. None of what I have said about Syria is exaggerated, their mission is to take control and spread, which they have done since they formed.  So knowing what they are about he will sit his hands and do nothing accepting that they will spread more death and destruction.  Now that is either wanton abandonment of public duties because it is effecting the UK or something he his happy for it to continue, either case he should never get into power.

You might see that as right wing shite but I see a lack of conviction to deal with ISIS as a lack of leadership and a danger to our security in the UK.  If you want to know what ISIS do to Christians I suggest you search '21 Christians' to see what these animals are capable of.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Marinerz93
September 20, 2015, 10:12pm

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It's a completely different situation moving to another country than having them move here. You can't claim they don't integrate from your experiences abroad, it's not the same thing. I work with a Romanian girl, she's lovely. She certainly doesn't indulge in any of the behaviour you've suggested but who doesn't love a bigoted sweeping statement? I've also had a friend of my flatmates in the flat tonight who is Muslim but I suppose he was just plotting his Jihadist attacks against us. Equally, perhaps I should be ashamed and have my passport revoked because the meal we ate contained halal chicken.

I didn't answer the point about Sweden because I can't be bothered to go look it up, it's not even relevant to the integration in this country as it's not in this country. It's extremely tiresome and I really can't be bothered to argue with your insular viewpoint, I think it's sad you hold the strong views you do and that you don't judge people on their own individual merit but to each their own.

P.s butterface http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=butter+face Not entirely sure what you were trying to suggest. My face isn't great admittedly but neither is the rest of me.


I said You haven't answered my point about Sweden, did you get buffer face ignoring it? buffer face from the phone ad.  I can now see why you hold the views you do, you won't look outside the confines of home and don't read things properly, be like Bacon  

[youtube]rpxE2yIyRhI[/youtube]


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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mariner91
September 21, 2015, 1:04am
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I'd be interested to know, M93, which shows less moral fibre; sticking your little fella into a dead pig's head or not singing the national anthem?


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Grim74
September 21, 2015, 9:46am
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Quoted from Maringer


Interesting link there. The fullfact thing notes the 1,000,000 uses was not to individuals, but then the Trussell Trust notes this in it's stats:

http://www.trusselltrust.org/stats

So, with an average of two instances per person per annum that is somewhere around half a million people supported by Trussell Trust food banks. Note also that the TT provised just half of the food banks in the UK. If the figures of the other food banks match those of the TT, then we could be around the 1,000,000 individuals mark. No statistics to show this one way or the other, however.

Your comments that the food banks were somehow brought in by the Labour government to bolster the welfare system is utterly bizarre! The food banks were set up by charitable organisations to meet a need, a need which clearly increased following the recession caused by the financial crash back in 2008. The appalling recovery following this recession thanks to Osbornomics means that the poorest haven't even got back to the income levels of 2008 and inflation has only been down to zero recently so it is clear that they are worse off. Of course, the benefits cuts during the last parliament and the further cuts just passed make the situation even more precarious.

Look, it's clear that you don't believe, well, pretty much anything about the poor struggling to get by in the current system. You've entirely bought into the "skivers vs strivers" narrative of your favoured party.

So, explain this to me. As the IFS notes in the link below low income households lost the most money due to tax and benefits changes during the last parliament:

http://election2015.ifs.org.uk/distributional-analysis

So, the poorest 30% or so have lost up to 2% of their total income due to tax/benefit changes at the same time that annual inflation was averaging around 3% (which didn't even drop below 2% until 2014). Cumulatively, that's an increase of well over 10% in prices whilst their income has been cut, so why would you possibly think that the poorest in society wouldn't be struggling to put food on the table, especially when wage growth was pretty much non-existent until the past 12 months or so?

Similarly, why do you think that the new tax credit cuts and increased benefit cap just passed won't lead to more of the poorest in society struggling to put food on the table? Inflation might be at zero now but, as this IFS chart shows, the bottom 20% of earners stand to lose over 10% of their income over the next 5 years!

http://twitter.com/TheIFS/status/619133104893108225/photo/1

The poorest are already down well over 10% in real income over the past parliament and now they are to lose another 10%? Come on, explain how this won't lead to real hardship, especially at a time when rental prices are increasing twice as fast as wages!


Well done Maringer, once again you have managed to derail a thread! We started of with Corbyrn but somehow you have managed to turn it around to your favourite topic of conversation George Osbourne!! I think you must secretly admire this man after all he's the one digging us out of the hole Brown and Balls left us in, oh how you must wish he was in your camp.

So anyway for a start I'm not going to get dragged in to a mammary for tat on benefit cuts with you, in case you have forgotten it's been done to death under the tax credits thread where I have given my counter argument and explanations to you, and you eventually come round to the correct way of thinking.

Secondly I am not loyal to one political party so why you still refer to me as being a Tory I just don't understand, after all I have put you straight on a few occasions now, so I'm given the assumption that maybe you really do struggle to takes things in, or its some kind of memory loss you suffer with?
So just to clarify once again I feel no great affiliation with any of the main party's, I have voted labour and conservative in the past but given the vote today it would be UKIP, ask me again in 6months it might be a different story so I suppose I'm classed as a floating voter, my mind is free unlike yours from political indoctrination.

In response i do sympathise with the low income working families out there who do struggle with every day costs that the long term welfare dependants get for free and take for granted, at least action is now finally being taken with a government that encourages people back in to work and offering them a living wage far more than the Labour contemplated, and to ensure that anyone who chooses not to work will not be better off on benefits.

So back to Corbyrn, is there anything with his views on the world that you don't agree with with? For instance do you think his proposals to welcome thousands of migrants in to our country against the wishes of the majority of the people (according to at least 4 polls I have seen) would be good for the country ?



Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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grimsby pete
September 21, 2015, 12:05pm

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If Corbyn gets in and does nationalise the trains again,

Does that mean the old milk train will run again from London,?

Had many a good day down in the smoke following Town and coming back on the milk train.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                             68 Years following the Town

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Maringer
September 21, 2015, 1:36pm
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Grim74, if you seriously believe Osborne has been "the one digging us out of the hole Brown and Balls left us in", you're either deluded or have a reading comprehension problem. Possibly both.  

I posted reams of information pre-election which showed that Osborne had done nothing but damage the economy since he became chancellor. The figures about the dismal recovery (which he makes fantastical claims about), lack of wage growth, income cuts for the poor, tax cuts for the wealthy are absolutely indisputable as are the ones which showed that the previous Labour government wasn't overspending and their spending wasn't the cause of the crash, a lie promulgated by Osborne himself at every given chance.

I call you a Tory because you appear to be in agreement with everything they say, however obviously untrue the propaganda may be. If it walks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck.

Speaking of propaganda, you mention Osborne's proper 'national living wage'. You are, of course, aware that the real "Living Wage" as promoted by the Living Wage Foundation takes into account all income/benefits which a worker is due? The current Living Wage figures of £7.85/£9.15 were calculated on the assumption that low earners will be in receipt of the tax credits and other benefits which Osborne has just slashed! The LWF will update the figure in a month or two for 2016 and you can expect the figures to rise a good amount to take these cuts into account. Personally, I reckon Lidl have been quite clever announcing they will begin to pay above the Living Wage this past weekend as they know the official figure will increase a lot soon. I've not checked, but I'm guessing they haven't committed to keeping up with an increased living wage for 2016. Don't be surprised if one or two other organisations suddenly announce they will follow suit for a PR move before the Real Living Wage (which is what they should rename it) is increased.

Osborne's "National Living Wage" is a handy increase in the minimum wage but is simply passing off, trying to use the reputation of the actual, real Living Wage. The cuts to tax credits and reduced benefit caps mean that millions of workers will be worse off than before the implementation of this 'NLW'. Raising the minimum wage whilst at the same time reducing overall income for the poorest in society is one of the most disingenuous things you can do. The most ridiculous thing, of course, is that under-25s aren't going to get anywhere near this higher rate so they are going to be dreadfully hit by the cuts. Talking about pissing all over the young. No political party has ever been so generous to the older demographic whilst shitting all over the younger generation as this lot and they surely can't be thinking about the longer-term? Building up anger and resentment amongst the young is not something which a healthy society should accept. Bear in mind, the elderly will be relying on this generation to look after them as they get older.

The problem here is outlined in your penultimate paragraph. You believe that anybody on welfare or benefits (or social security as it was once known - the right-wing had to change the nomenclature to help them change the narrative), is a feckless workshy slacker who sits on their backsides all day laughing at people going to work whilst swigging their Diamond White and watching TV. The reality, of course, is much different. Not that you believe any of the information that disproves it, of course.

As for Corbyn and his views, I personally think it is right for us to continue to accept immigrants though it obviously shouldn't be completely unfettered immigration. I'd go as far as to say we have a moral responsibility to do so as it is our involvement in wars and other military action which has destabilised the areas from which the immigrants are coming. If you're going to overthrow the governments (appalling as they were) of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, you have to be aware that refugees are going to be an issue.

On another tack, but for immigrants, we have an aging population and it is only the children born to immigrants which is actually stopping our population declining. Bluntly, with many more elderly people in the country, we need people to be working in the economy to look after and support them. The baby boomers have started to retire now and are putting an enormous strain on NHS and Social Care.

This is not to say that there isn't a balance to be struck between immigration and making sure the young in this country have a chance with jobs as well. Government investment on education and training is appalling low in this country in comparison to our competitors (and has been for decades) so it is no surprise that many of the immigrants coming here to work, especially from Europe, tend to be better educated than our general populace.

Quite a wordy way to say that I think reasonable levels of immigration are both OK and necessary. However, we need government investment in education/training to fill skills shortages and this is something that the current and previous governments simply haven't provided. In fact, the enormous debt which University students need to accept in this country now are making things even worse in this regard. Explains why increasing numbers of British students are studying in Europe.
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Marinerz93
September 21, 2015, 6:54pm

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Quoted from mariner91
I'd be interested to know, M93, which shows less moral fibre; sticking your little fella into a dead pig's head or not singing the national anthem?


The clue is in the saying M91, obviously it is morally wrong to allegedly stick your little fella into a dead pigs head but what you do in your spare time I have no interest in, the other part we have discussed at length, so I see you are still suffering with buffer face.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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grimsby pete
September 21, 2015, 6:59pm

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Maringer have you ever thought of going into politics ?

Serious question as you do talk a lot of sense,


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                             68 Years following the Town

                              Life member of Trust

                               First game   April 1955
                               
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mariner91
September 21, 2015, 7:42pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


The clue is in the saying M91, obviously it is morally wrong to allegedly stick your little fella into a dead pigs head but what you do in your spare time I have no interest in, the other part we have discussed at length, so I see you are still suffering with buffer face.


Which saying? Moral fibre? Someone's ability to do what is morally correct in a particular situation? I'd say sticking your cock in to a dead animal is less morally correct than not singing the national anthem but then perhaps you consider a lack of "national pride" as worse than bestiality and necrophilia.

I see you are still suffering with the inability to actually debate something so resort to juvenile references to a tv advert.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Maringer
September 21, 2015, 9:07pm
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Quoted from grimsby pete
Maringer have you ever thought of going into politics ?


God, no! I don't have the temperament for it and I'm not slick enough with people to do the job. If I'm talking to somebody and I think they are a flipping idiot, I'm not very good at hiding the fact. Probably not the best trait for a politician to have!
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Marinerz93
September 21, 2015, 9:29pm

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Quoted from mariner91


Which saying? Moral fibre? Someone's ability to do what is morally correct in a particular situation? I'd say sticking your cock in to a dead animal is less morally correct than not singing the national anthem but then perhaps you consider a lack of "national pride" as worse than bestiality and necrophilia.

I see you are still suffering with the inability to actually debate something so resort to juvenile references to a tv advert.


What is the point of debating with you, you already admitted you don't research information given to you (Sweden's problems with immigration) and then post something about butter face which proves you don't take in what you read.  This alleged incident requires it's own thread but you throw it at me is if I'm some sort of Torry.  I can't stand the Torries, millionaires restricting the opportunities and services of the working class.

You are comparing two different situations as though they are the same which they are not.  Where did I say one was worse than the other. I would say the alleged pig incident if true is worse than not singing the national anthem on a scale below

Doing naughty things with animals be they dead or alive - 10 the worst - should be sacked with immediate effect.

Not singing the national anthem as a leader of the opposition  - 7 very poor - Should be given the chance to redeem himself and sing the national anthem. Which it looks like he is going to do, I will watch eagerly to see if he puts enough heart into it though  

If it was you, not singing the national anthem I would look on you with disdain, however someone in a position to sell and represent the UK should honour their duties which they signed up to when they swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen.

Hope you manage to take in what I have said, wouldn't want you to misread or make something up again.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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ginnywings
September 21, 2015, 10:06pm

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Quoted from Marinerz93


What is the point of debating with you, you already admitted you don't research information given to you (Sweden's problems with immigration) and then post something about butter face which proves you don't take in what you read.  This alleged incident requires it's own thread but you throw it at me is if I'm some sort of Torry.  I can't stand the Torries, millionaires restricting the opportunities and services of the working class.

You are comparing two different situations as though they are the same which they are not.  Where did I say one was worse than the other. I would say the alleged pig incident if true is worse than not singing the national anthem on a scale below

Doing naughty things with animals be they dead or alive - 10 the worst - should be sacked with immediate effect.

Not singing the national anthem as a leader of the opposition  - 7 very poor - Should be given the chance to redeem himself and sing the national anthem. Which it looks like he is going to do, I will watch eagerly to see if he puts enough heart into it though  

If it was you, not singing the national anthem I would look on you with disdain, however someone in a position to sell and represent the UK should honour their duties which they signed up to when they swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen.

Hope you manage to take in what I have said, wouldn't want you to misread or make something up again.


Why? Not everyone is enamoured with the Royal Family, myself included. I've never sung, nor will i ever sing the national anthem. They mean absolutely nothing to me and if that makes me unpatriotic, then i don't really care.

Corbyn is a Socialist Republican who is trying to do what he feels is right for the country. To do that he has to swear an oath of allegiance to a Queen he does not want, in some kind of archaic ritual. It's barmy if you ask me.
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Zmariner
September 21, 2015, 10:21pm
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Quoted from ginnywings


Why? Not everyone is enamoured with the Royal Family, myself included. I've never sung, nor will i ever sing the national anthem. They mean absolutely nothing to me and if that makes me unpatriotic, then i don't really care.

Corbyn is a Socialist Republican who is trying to do what he feels is right for the country. To do that he has to swear an oath of allegiance to a Queen he does not want, in some kind of archaic ritual. It's barmy if you ask me.


Staunch English man myself but would love to see another national song as queen is irrelevant to me. I would not remove her as long as she balances the books but I have no allegiance to this. As for Corbyn, we could see the liberals reinvented or a new party. I am no great conservative but will never support Corbyn UTM
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Maringer
September 21, 2015, 10:46pm
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Quoted from Zmariner

I am no great conservative but will never support Corbyn UTM


Why not? As I've noted earlier in this thread, many of his policies don't differ a great deal to those of the Conservatives from the 1970s and earlier. Thatcher began the rightward swing, New Labour mostly kept the status quo in many respects and then the coalition and new Tory government have been implementing stuff which even Thatcher wouldn't have considered possible. All this has lead to is greater transfer of wealth to the richest in society and greater inequality.

The idea that Corbyn is some kind of a rabid left-wing nutjob just doesn't stand up to scrutiny when you listen to what he says and the outlines of his policies, regardless of what the media would have you believe.
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Marinerz93
September 21, 2015, 11:38pm

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Quoted from ginnywings


Corbyn is a Socialist Republican who is trying to do what he feels is right for the country. To do that he has to swear an oath of allegiance to a Queen he does not want, in some kind of archaic ritual. It's barmy if you ask me.


http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/swearingin/a

He won't sing the national anthem but he will kneel at the Queen's feet, and kiss her hand so he can get a position on the Privy Council, offered to him by Cameron.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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mariner91
September 22, 2015, 12:39am
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Quoted from Marinerz93


What is the point of debating with you, you already admitted you don't research information given to you (Sweden's problems with immigration) and then post something about butter face which proves you don't take in what you read.  This alleged incident requires it's own thread but you throw it at me is if I'm some sort of Torry.  I can't stand the Torries, millionaires restricting the opportunities and services of the working class.

You are comparing two different situations as though they are the same which they are not.  Where did I say one was worse than the other. I would say the alleged pig incident if true is worse than not singing the national anthem on a scale below

Doing naughty things with animals be they dead or alive - 10 the worst - should be sacked with immediate effect.

Not singing the national anthem as a leader of the opposition  - 7 very poor - Should be given the chance to redeem himself and sing the national anthem. Which it looks like he is going to do, I will watch eagerly to see if he puts enough heart into it though  

If it was you, not singing the national anthem I would look on you with disdain, however someone in a position to sell and represent the UK should honour their duties which they signed up to when they swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen.

Hope you manage to take in what I have said, wouldn't want you to misread or make something up again.


Because it has nothing to do with the immigration in to this country, it is not in this country. Equally, why don't we compare the struggles of the Zambian Kwacha and apply it to our own economy? We don't because it's not relevant. Equally, your experiences of living abroad aren't particularly relevant. Yet you still feel obliged to go around tarring everyone of certain nationalities with the same brush claiming they mistreat women or animals or have a universal jihad against Westerners and then cry foul when you're called xenophobic.

The pig incident isn't used as a dig trying to label you a Tory. You are pouring scorn on Corbyn for not singing the national anthem as though it's the crime of the century (it's not, look how many people on this thread alone truly couldn't give a shite) but sticking your package into a dead animal is definitely worse when it comes to selling and representing the UK. You claim Corbyn would make a terrible leader for whatever reason but I'd much rather see him in 10 Downing Street than old pasty face. As Ginny pointed out, the swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen is an archaic ritual which has to be performed if you want to serve the people of this country, which Corbyn clearly believes he is trying to do.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Maringer
September 22, 2015, 7:20am
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Quoted from Marinerz93


http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/swearingin/a

He won't sing the national anthem but he will kneel at the Queen's feet, and kiss her hand so he can get a position on the Privy Council, offered to him by Cameron.


But will he have to go through with this archaic claptrap? We're a developed nation in the 21st century so why on earth should any politician have to act in such a manner, especially when the role of Monarch has been little more than a symbolic figurehead for the past few hundred years. Would be good to see such nonsense dropped because it is a pointless anachronism so it will be interesting to see if anything can be changed.
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Grim74
September 22, 2015, 11:38am
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Quoted from Maringer
Grim74, if you seriously believe Osborne has been "the one digging us out of the hole Brown and Balls left us in", you're either deluded or have a reading comprehension problem. Possibly both.  

I posted reams of information pre-election which showed that Osborne had done nothing but damage the economy since he became chancellor. The figures about the dismal recovery (which he makes fantastical claims about), lack of wage growth, income cuts for the poor, tax cuts for the wealthy are absolutely indisputable as are the ones which showed that the previous Labour government wasn't overspending and their spending wasn't the cause of the crash, a lie promulgated by Osborne himself at every given chance.

I call you a Tory because you appear to be in agreement with everything they say, however obviously untrue the propaganda may be. If it walks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck.

Speaking of propaganda, you mention Osborne's proper 'national living wage'. You are, of course, aware that the real "Living Wage" as promoted by the Living Wage Foundation takes into account all income/benefits which a worker is due? The current Living Wage figures of £7.85/£9.15 were calculated on the assumption that low earners will be in receipt of the tax credits and other benefits which Osborne has just slashed! The LWF will update the figure in a month or two for 2016 and you can expect the figures to rise a good amount to take these cuts into account. Personally, I reckon Lidl have been quite clever announcing they will begin to pay above the Living Wage this past weekend as they know the official figure will increase a lot soon. I've not checked, but I'm guessing they haven't committed to keeping up with an increased living wage for 2016. Don't be surprised if one or two other organisations suddenly announce they will follow suit for a PR move before the Real Living Wage (which is what they should rename it) is increased.

Osborne's "National Living Wage" is a handy increase in the minimum wage but is simply passing off, trying to use the reputation of the actual, real Living Wage. The cuts to tax credits and reduced benefit caps mean that millions of workers will be worse off than before the implementation of this 'NLW'. Raising the minimum wage whilst at the same time reducing overall income for the poorest in society is one of the most disingenuous things you can do. The most ridiculous thing, of course, is that under-25s aren't going to get anywhere near this higher rate so they are going to be dreadfully hit by the cuts. Talking about pissing all over the young. No political party has ever been so generous to the older demographic whilst shitting all over the younger generation as this lot and they surely can't be thinking about the longer-term? Building up anger and resentment amongst the young is not something which a healthy society should accept. Bear in mind, the elderly will be relying on this generation to look after them as they get older.

The problem here is outlined in your penultimate paragraph. You believe that anybody on welfare or benefits (or social security as it was once known - the right-wing had to change the nomenclature to help them change the narrative), is a feckless workshy slacker who sits on their backsides all day laughing at people going to work whilst swigging their Diamond White and watching TV. The reality, of course, is much different. Not that you believe any of the information that disproves it, of course.

As for Corbyn and his views, I personally think it is right for us to continue to accept immigrants though it obviously shouldn't be completely unfettered immigration. I'd go as far as to say we have a moral responsibility to do so as it is our involvement in wars and other military action which has destabilised the areas from which the immigrants are coming. If you're going to overthrow the governments (appalling as they were) of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria, you have to be aware that refugees are going to be an issue.

On another tack, but for immigrants, we have an aging population and it is only the children born to immigrants which is actually stopping our population declining. Bluntly, with many more elderly people in the country, we need people to be working in the economy to look after and support them. The baby boomers have started to retire now and are putting an enormous strain on NHS and Social Care.

This is not to say that there isn't a balance to be struck between immigration and making sure the young in this country have a chance with jobs as well. Government investment on education and training is appalling low in this country in comparison to our competitors (and has been for decades) so it is no surprise that many of the immigrants coming here to work, especially from Europe, tend to be better educated than our general populace.

Quite a wordy way to say that I think reasonable levels of immigration are both OK and necessary. However, we need government investment in education/training to fill skills shortages and this is something that the current and previous governments simply haven't provided. In fact, the enormous debt which University students need to accept in this country now are making things even worse in this regard. Explains why increasing numbers of British students are studying in Europe.


Deluded? This coming from someone who believes the BBC has a right wing agenda!
Again to say the two buffoons in question had nothing to do at all with creating the worst recession since the war, and to believe it was totally out of their hands and to believe they wasn't even partly responsible then you really have been brainwashed.
It's all in the report - http://tpa.typepad.com/home/fi.....2019%20SEPTEMBER.pdf

Quoted Text
[/quote]I posted reams of information pre-election which showed that Osborne had done nothing but damage the economy since he became chancellor. The figures about the dismal recovery (which he makes fantastical claims about), lack of wage growth, income cuts for the poor, tax cuts for the wealthy are absolutely indisputable as are the ones which showed that the previous Labour government wasn't overspending and their spending wasn't the cause of the crash, a lie promulgated by Osborne himself at every given chance.[quote]
.

The IMF and Ed Balls said Osbourne's economic plans would not work!!!
Balls went further to predict a double dip recession, ( one of many false predictions) but then and according to the IMF Britains economy grew faster than any other G7 countries last year but you claim it's been damaged!

"Lack of wage growth"  you cry! Are you talking about the public sector? If so great news these wages had grown far to big in comparison with the similar jobs in the private sector, we just need to reduce the size now (brown increased this to 52% during his unelected tenure) and then boost the private sector which after all creates all the wealth in our economy.

Tax cuts bleat, bleat, as mentioned tax credits done to death, but you failed to mention the increase in income tax allowance allowance under Osbourne, I know my son for example who is first year into his apprenticeship is more than grateful for the governments increase in what he can earn before tax, especially when I tell him what he would of been paying under Brown.

Obviously I don't believe everybody on benefits is a workshy slacker as you put it, the workshy slackers from the new labour years the Vicky pollard era, now seem to be a bit of a dieing breed under this government and rightly so, I've said before people are more inspired today to get off their bottom get a job or maybe start their own business we likened to be loadsamoney characters today in a comical sense and not Vicky pollards.

But there are still plenty who don't want to play ball, I see these people day in day out with my work,  people who are quite happy to sit home all day playing computer games drinking smoking and useing food banks, you can deny they exist all you want with your statistics facts and figures but out there in the real world they are aplenty, that's why cuts are needed and should be cut further to encourage them in to getting a job, training, or to just break out of their cycle, my compassion is for those that we should be supporting the short term unemployed, how sad it is to hear of someone who has worked hard for years payed their taxes but then finds themselves on the dole through not fault of their own, and then all of a sudden trying to survive on £75 a week, scandalous.

So back to Corbyrn as we know you are a lifelong labour supporter (you didn't even argue my indoctrination point 😀) and it wouldn't matter which way the party swings you are red just the kind Austin Mitchell talked about, now then new Labour was bad very bad for me I will never forgive them in the way in which they tried and succeeded in parts to some extent With their destructive social engineering of the country, but just imagine no dream is probably a better word... Corbyrn actually being leader of our great country...he would make Blairs agenda look xenophobic! He would have our doors taken off the hinges it wouldn't be swamping it would be an infestation, but hey that's ok isn't it Maringer because at least our elderly need looking after, but just one thing you've overlooked immigrants have kids, and immigrants do eventually grow old!!


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Grim74
September 22, 2015, 12:06pm
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Quoted from grimsby pete
Maringer have you ever thought of going into politics ?

Serious question as you do talk a lot of sense,


FFS he quotes the guardian! Don't put yourself down Pete if you had a public sector job you would have the time.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Manchester Mariner
September 22, 2015, 12:41pm

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Brilliant piece by Frankie Boyle doing the rounds today.

http://www.theguardian.com/com.....ritish-frankie-boyle


"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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Town Monkey
September 22, 2015, 1:55pm
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I've generally kept out of this for now.  However, it's only fair that I provide my thought(s) (don't want to overdo it, I can be a bit hard of thinking).  

Corbyn seems like a decent principled guy who will actually provide a different perspective to our politics.  I think this is incredibly important for our country.  There will finally be a difference between the two main parties rather than the non opposition we saw under Milliband and Balls.  Someone needs to stand up to some of the worst excesses of the current government (and lets face it, there's a fair amount that they've got wrong).  

That said, I'd like to highlight a major issue that I have with JC.  It appears that he is listening closely to his "adviser" on the economy, Richard Murphy.  I've heard him described by someone who shall remain nameless but who I have a deep respect for as a "a dangerous and influential idiot".  For those of you who haven't heard of him, he is a failed accountant who went on to write some satirical articles and is now a self styled expert on tax fairness (among other things). He recently wrote a paper for the Green Party in the European Parliament on profit shifting by major Banks. This simplified mess of a paper even contained basic factual errors like having the exchange rates used for some of the calculations round the wrong way. in spite of this, the Green Party are now using this paper to lobby in the European Parliament.  If Corbyn is to have a chance of winning the election, he has to distance himself from these types of characters to retain any credibility at all.

I'll watch with interest over the next few months to see how things develop but it should be a really interesting time for politics in this country.
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Maringer
September 22, 2015, 2:53pm
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Quoted from Grim74


FFS he quotes the guardian!


And reports from the IFS, OECD, various charitable foundations, academic work, blogs of Economics professors etc etc. You, on the other hand, post the odd link to articles on the Spectator (ha ha!) and random blogs elsewhere.

You've obviously got a very poor memory, by the way, as I've told you repeated times I don't work in the public sector and never have done.

I'll address your earlier lengthy post when I get the chance later on. I've only skimmed through it but I thin that all I need to do to rebut everything you say is search through some of my earlier posts including many from the General Election thread. Plenty of links to data there that clearly rebuts all arguments.

I'll post some links a bit later on.
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Chrisblor
September 22, 2015, 3:52pm

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Quoted from Grim74
"Lack of wage growth"  you cry! Are you talking about the public sector? If so great news these wages had grown far to big in comparison with the similar jobs in the private sector, we just need to reduce the size now (brown increased this to 52% during his unelected tenure) and then boost the private sector which after all creates all the wealth in our economy.


I can't be arsed to hack the rest of your nonsensical post to pieces, but this is total rubbish. A lack of wage growth in any sector is A Bad Thing. Just today it was quietly revealed that the UK's budget defecit had risen to £12.1bn (the highest level since 2011 and considerably higher than expected by analysts). The main reason for this? A fall in tax receipts due to stagnant wage growth. Why's there been a lack of wage growth? Because Gideon Oliver "George" Osborne's supposed economic recovery has been based around an increase in part-time, zero-hour and self-employed jobs as well as further inflation of our ridiculous housing bubble! Only 1 in 40 jobs created since the recession have been full-time (http://www.theguardian.com/bus.....loyee-tuc-employment) and the exchequer's now feeling the effects of this sham recovery through reduced income tax receipts.

A strong public sector with well renumerated staff is necessary for this country to function. Where would the private sector be without a functioning public sector containing things like roads, railway infrastructure, street lights, the police, the fire service and schools? Clearly you don't believe this as you've bought into the "lazy public sector workers" argument spread by the Tories and a complicit media. The wonderful and amazing private sector is hardly picking up the slack and showing the public sector where it's supposedly going wrong either - our national productivity is at the lowest level since World War 2 (http://www.theguardian.com/bus.....-since-wwii-says-ons).

George Osborne is a total fraud. As Maringer has quite clearly pointed out (with an array of well sourced evidence - not just from 'left wing newspapers') it isn't working for the poorest and most vulnerable in society. It's not working for me (a middle-class professional in his mid 20s with a respectable job stuck in rented accommodation with no hope of buying a house in the next decade). It's only working for those who already own a home, already have loads of assets, already have a huge pension saved up. The goal of a civilised society should be to ensure that the next generation are better off than the last. Up until recently that was clearly happening, but it's not any longer.


gary jones
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barralad
September 22, 2015, 4:25pm
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Truly excellent contribution Chrisblor...


The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

Joseph Joubert.
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Maringer
September 22, 2015, 6:03pm
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As Chrisblor notes, the people struggling most are the younger generations.

I'm early 40s and my house in Cleethorpes which I bought when I was 29 is now 'worth' twice as much as I paid for it. And don't forget that N.E. Lincs is one of the areas of the country which has seen the smallest growth in property prices.

In comparison, my wife's sisters are both teachers who have just turned 30 and they are struggling to make ends meet down in Norwich (and Warwick respectively) even though they are sharing a house with their husband (and fiance respectively). The one who is married only bought a house last year with her husband after they had lived with his parents for a year. He's a teacher as well yet they have had to really stretch themselves financially to buy a small 2 bedroom house.

The other sister and her fiance can't possibly afford to buy so are renting near Warwick where they work.

I left University with practically no debt to speak of and could easily afford to buy a decent house on my own during my late 20s. Just 13 or so years later, my wife's sisters (and their partners) still have considerable debts from their student years - 4 years as a student for teachers, don't forget - and can either just barely afford to buy a house or simply can't even contemplate it with the current market.

I don't think my relative comfort is anything to do with being particularly clever, or working hard or anything other than being born in the early 1970s instead of the mid-1980s. Simple as that. I'm comfortable, my friends are doing very well (some have made a killing on 3 or 4 houses as they've moved around the country over the years) yet people with identical or better educations and qualifications haven't got a chance just because they were born half a generation later than me.

That's the society in which we're living. It's simply not sustainable yet Osborne's plans (which aren't working in any case) to 'balance the books' rely on consumers increasing their personal debt even further to levels higher than 2008! Anybody defending this must have half a brain.
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ginnywings
September 22, 2015, 7:24pm

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Quoted from Marinerz93


http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/elections-and-voting/swearingin/a

He won't sing the national anthem but he will kneel at the Queen's feet, and kiss her hand so he can get a position on the Privy Council, offered to him by Cameron.


Yeah, because he has to, as i pointed out. I guess he'd much rather not.
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Marinerz93
September 22, 2015, 9:35pm

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Quoted from mariner91


The pig incident isn't used as a dig trying to label you a Tory. You are pouring scorn on Corbyn for not singing the national anthem as though it's the crime of the century (it's not, look how many people on this thread alone truly couldn't give a shite) but sticking your package into a dead animal is definitely worse when it comes to selling and representing the UK. You claim Corbyn would make a terrible leader for whatever reason but I'd much rather see him in 10 Downing Street than old pasty face. As Ginny pointed out, the swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen is an archaic ritual which has to be performed if you want to serve the people of this country, which Corbyn clearly believes he is trying to do.


Didn't read the first part due to buffer face.

The pig incident deserves it's own thread when it has been proven said person carried out such a stupid act.  That person should lose his position as a public servant if it is proved he did what is claimed. All you have done is try detract from the original debate by getting over excited by a scorned torry millionaire who wanted something from Cameron and when he didn't get it, wrote a book.

The fishy has proved many times before that it is more republican and maybe Grimsby as a town is more republican, we did consider ourselves an outpost of Norway at one point in our history.  Until there is a national vote, neither side can claim what the majority of people think.

The oath of allegiance dates back to 1215 becoming a statue law in 1297. Corbyn is like the other republican politicians since then, when they get a taste of the good life they change their tune and you never hear a peep from them again and that's the way it will be for the foreseeable future. I wonder if he is looking forward to kneeling before the queen before he kisses her hand, something he knew he would have to do before becoming the leader of the party.

I also don't like Corbyn's view on Northern Ireland and the Falklands or Malvinas as Corbyn calls them to his Argentinian friends at the Argentinian embassy he often visits, and they say "Jeremy Corbyn is 'one of ours' " . I won't get into that with you


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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codcheeky
September 22, 2015, 10:10pm
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Quoted from Marinerz93


Didn't read the first part due to buffer face.

The pig incident deserves it's own thread when it has been proven said person carried out such a stupid act.  That person should lose his position as a public servant if it is proved he did what is claimed. All you have done is try detract from the original debate by getting over excited by a scorned torry millionaire who wanted something from Cameron and when he didn't get it, wrote a book.

The fishy has proved many times before that it is more republican and maybe Grimsby as a town is more republican, we did consider ourselves an outpost of Norway at one point in our history.  Until there is a national vote, neither side can claim what the majority of people think.

The oath of allegiance dates back to 1215 becoming a statue law in 1297. Corbyn is like the other republican politicians since then, when they get a taste of the good life they change their tune and you never hear a peep from them again and that's the way it will be for the foreseeable future. I wonder if he is looking forward to kneeling before the queen before he kisses her hand, something he knew he would have to do before becoming the leader of the party.

I also don't like Corbyn's view on Northern Ireland and the Falklands or Malvinas as Corbyn calls them to his Argentinian friends at the Argentinian embassy he often visits, and they say "Jeremy Corbyn is 'one of ours' " . I won't get into that with you


So if the Scots on the west coast had voted to leave the Uk and the Scots on the east coast had voted to stay should Scotland have been divided in 2 like Ireland?  Ireland costs us a fortune in this country the Irish are Irish and protestants who moved there and live there should accept that just as we should expect immigrants to follow the rules in England.

The fact that are you defending  in a so called democracy elected officials being forced to kneel before someone because they were born lucky is astonishing.   Your support of st.George also seems ironic seeing as many believe he was Syrian or  Turk of greek ancestory who apparently killed a dragon... even the mail would be stretched with that story
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Zmariner
September 23, 2015, 12:05am
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Quoted from Maringer


Why not? As I've noted earlier in this thread, many of his policies don't differ a great deal to those of the Conservatives from the 1970s and earlier. Thatcher began the rightward swing, New Labour mostly kept the status quo in many respects and then the coalition and new Tory government have been implementing stuff which even Thatcher wouldn't have considered possible. All this has lead to is greater transfer of wealth to the richest in society and greater inequality.

The idea that Corbyn is some kind of a rabid left-wing nutjob just doesn't stand up to scrutiny when you listen to what he says and the outlines of his policies, regardless of what the media would have you believe.


He has some points that I agree with him but I generally have agreed with spending cuts. Corbyn is not a nut job but I am 25 years self employed and after Brown have very little faith in socialist economics. There is terrible inequality I agree but I do like hard work to be rewarded and higher taxation of the wealthy although popular is not always proven as an economic winner. I work in finance , usually in London, and have seen crazy waste in the mixed up councils in London. Good luck to everybody with their own choices and much is determined by your background. Mine is very working class and I have grafted very hard and all over the place hence I only want to pay benefits for those in real need and not those who are not prepared to graft
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Maringer
September 23, 2015, 7:23am
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Quoted from Zmariner


He has some points that I agree with him but I generally have agreed with spending cuts. Corbyn is not a nut job but I am 25 years self employed and after Brown have very little faith in socialist economics. There is terrible inequality I agree but I do like hard work to be rewarded and higher taxation of the wealthy although popular is not always proven as an economic winner. I work in finance , usually in London, and have seen crazy waste in the mixed up councils in London. Good luck to everybody with their own choices and much is determined by your background. Mine is very working class and I have grafted very hard and all over the place hence I only want to pay benefits for those in real need and not those who are not prepared to graft


The spending cuts have been an absolutely disastrous policy which have led to the worst recovery from a recession in our country's history. Osborne inherited a decent recovery in 2010 (growth of over 2% and on an upward track), and his austerity cut it dead - we were heading for a double-dip recession and only avoided this because Osborne quietly stopped austerity in 2012, leading to the poor recovery we have seen.

I'm afraid that Brown's policies were in no way socialist. Very centrist (and not a great deal different than the Major government in many respects), didn't attempt to fix the horribly broken housing market, didn't introduce any sort of progressive taxation and inequality (which many studies show is bad for the general economy) soared during the New Labour years. Though not as much as it has increased since 2010.

I'm afraid you're mistaken if you think progressive taxation doesn't work. As noted above, there are plenty of studies which show that progressive taxation leads to more equality and a stronger economy.

Incidentally, as you mention you work in finance, I can understand why you may hold many of the views you've just mentioned because I'm sure you'll be surrounded by people espousing these views. They conveniently forget that it was the financial sector which caused the crash and recession in 2008 and much of the huge national debt we now have came from bailing out the banks. Not that this is anything to do with you, of course!

In fact, there is research which shows a large financial sector in an economy (which doesn't actually produce anything, remember) is actually bad for growth overall. Even the Economist magazine seems happy to accept this:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2015/02/finance-sector-and-growth

You've also apparently bought into the usual poverty myths about 'skivers vs strivers'. They are just that - myths. TV shows of the likes of Benefits Street and Skint show a tiny proportion of the population and the vast majority are nothing like some of the likely characters appearing in those shows.

Anyway, nice to have a civilised tone to a debate, something one or two on this board can't manage.  
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Maringer
September 23, 2015, 9:12am
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Quoted from Grim74


Deluded? This coming from someone who believes the BBC has a right wing agenda!
Again to say the two buffoons in question had nothing to do at all with creating the worst recession since the war, and to believe it was totally out of their hands and to believe they wasn't even partly responsible then you really have been brainwashed.
It's all in the report - http://tpa.typepad.com/home/fi.....2019%20SEPTEMBER.pdf

The IMF and Ed Balls said Osbourne's economic plans would not work!!!
Balls went further to predict a double dip recession, ( one of many false predictions) but then and according to the IMF Britains economy grew faster than any other G7 countries last year but you claim it's been damaged!

"Lack of wage growth"  you cry! Are you talking about the public sector? If so great news these wages had grown far to big in comparison with the similar jobs in the private sector, we just need to reduce the size now (brown increased this to 52% during his unelected tenure) and then boost the private sector which after all creates all the wealth in our economy.

Tax cuts bleat, bleat, as mentioned tax credits done to death, but you failed to mention the increase in income tax allowance allowance under Osbourne, I know my son for example who is first year into his apprenticeship is more than grateful for the governments increase in what he can earn before tax, especially when I tell him what he would of been paying under Brown.

Obviously I don't believe everybody on benefits is a workshy slacker as you put it, the workshy slackers from the new labour years the Vicky pollard era, now seem to be a bit of a dieing breed under this government and rightly so, I've said before people are more inspired today to get off their bottom get a job or maybe start their own business we likened to be loadsamoney characters today in a comical sense and not Vicky pollards.

But there are still plenty who don't want to play ball, I see these people day in day out with my work,  people who are quite happy to sit home all day playing computer games drinking smoking and useing food banks, you can deny they exist all you want with your statistics facts and figures but out there in the real world they are aplenty, that's why cuts are needed and should be cut further to encourage them in to getting a job, training, or to just break out of their cycle, my compassion is for those that we should be supporting the short term unemployed, how sad it is to hear of someone who has worked hard for years payed their taxes but then finds themselves on the dole through not fault of their own, and then all of a sudden trying to survive on £75 a week, scandalous.

So back to Corbyrn as we know you are a lifelong labour supporter (you didn't even argue my indoctrination point 😀) and it wouldn't matter which way the party swings you are red just the kind Austin Mitchell talked about, now then new Labour was bad very bad for me I will never forgive them in the way in which they tried and succeeded in parts to some extent With their destructive social engineering of the country, but just imagine no dream is probably a better word... Corbyrn actually being leader of our great country...he would make Blairs agenda look xenophobic! He would have our doors taken off the hinges it wouldn't be swamping it would be an infestation, but hey that's ok isn't it Maringer because at least our elderly need looking after, but just one thing you've overlooked immigrants have kids, and immigrants do eventually grow old!!


First of all, thanks for the laugh. For somebody who criticises me for linking articles/reports in the Guardian (not to mention the IFS, OECD etc etc), to post a 'report' from the TaxPayers' Alliance from 2008 shows quite remarkable gall! Either that or you're simply taking the urine. Everybody knows that the TPA is a front for the Tories - it's supported by Tories, paid for by Tories and was established with the aim of reducing the size of government, the ultimate Tory Party wet dream.

It's amusing, also, that you're still trying to make the claim that Osborne's plans were in any way good. As I've poined out on many occasions, Osborne's original "Plan A", the one that the IMF and Ed Balls said would lead to a double dip recession wasn't followed, despite what he (and you) may claim! I've certainly posted links to this article before:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n04/simon-wren-lewis/the-austerity-con

Before you TLDR it, here's a simple diagram taken from the article which shows Osborne's claims about sticking to his "Plan A" are basically total bullshite:

[img]http://cdn.lrb.co.uk/assets/edillus/wren01_3704_01.gif[/img]

Osborne's plans made in 2010 were certainly leading us into a double-dip recession - which is why he quietly changed them in 2012 yet has never admitted he created a new "Plan A"! The fact that the BBC never pointed this out (the figures were publicly available and easy to understand) is one of the reasons that I believe the pro-Tory bias there (I have posted a report in the past from a respected indicating this - of course, you claimed this report was itself biased based on nothing more than a feeling in your water). Not surprising when you consider the BBC head of news is a former editor of The Times, Nick Robinson was head of the Young Conservatives and Andrew Neil is a former editor of The Sunday Times!

As I've noted in the past, the growth lost due to Osborne's policies has lost thousands of pounds per man, woman and child in the country - something which will never be recovered. The economy is now a lot smaller than it would have been if Osborne hadn't pursued his austerian policies so it's no surprise that tax receipts are currently falling far short of what was expected and he's still nowhere near closing the deficit.

As for his reasons for Austerity in the first place? Well, they were bullshit, as Krugman clearly shows here:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion

Onto public vs private sector pay. Here's a useful recent report from the IFS:

http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r97.pdf

Here's a couple of excerpts from the summary:

Quoted Text
In raw terms, pay levels are higher in the public sector than in the private sector. However, after accounting for differences in education, age and where workers live, the differences are much smaller. Among men, the average public sector pay differential in 2013–14 was close to zero, while among women it was around 8%.

The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) forecasts that pay will continue to grow faster in the private sector than in the public sector over the next four years. If correct, this implies that the gap between public and private sector pay levels will fall back to levels last seen in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when there were recruitment and retention problems in parts of the public sector. OBR projections also imply further cuts to public sector employment levels, totalling one million between 2010-11 and 2018-19. Delivering both would involve substantial challenges to policymakers.


So, public/private sector pay was pretty much the same for men but women (who are underpaid everywhere) have a slight benefit. This is as last year. This year, with continued public sector pay freezes, the balance is clearly going to swing the other way. The forecast by the OBR implies that, for example, it will soon be difficult for the NHS to employ nurses/doctors etc due to the pay differential between the public and private sectors! Why, it's almost as if the government plans to shaft the NHS, isn't it?

Now, no doubt that public sector pay was a bit higher in comparison to private sector when the coalition came into power, but why should public sector pay freezes below the rate of inflation be a good thing? Wouldn't it have been nice if private sector wages had instead increased at a greater rate to match the difference? Don't try and claim that those poor corporations couldn't afford it, as they have been doing very well since the recession, thanks, Jack:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/corporate-profits

(Select the 'Max' option)

I note that you've still not responded as to whether you think it is fair for the poorest in society to be made worse off due to the tax credit cuts, whilst the wealthier are handed tax breaks. I'm guessing you do, because nothing shows those poor workers what's what like cutting their income, does it? Hope your son does well with his apprenticeship. He'll need to if he's going to have a chance with all the problems the current government is piling onto the young.

The rest of your post is pretty much gibberish. You think that my statistics, facts and figures about poverty don't reflect the real world. Well, where do you think they come from, then? They aren't magically pulled out of the air! You say one thing, I post data which shows this isn't a correct view of the world and you either naysay it or say it is biased.

I've never been indoctrinated by anybody. Most of my friends have the same "I'm all right, Jack" attitude that you share and I doubt any of them voted for Labour. I tend to doubt my parents vote Labour (they read the Daily Mail, FFS). I've also never been a member of a political party though I did register as a 'supporter' to vote for Corbyn in the leadership contest. He's literally the only person in a major political party who has come up with a plan to deal with the completely broken housing market (something your son will be facing very soon). At least he seems to be moving the debate to some degree.

Regarding the ever-increasing numbers of self-employed which are now at record numbers. In fact, a majority of the jobs added over the last 5 years or so are self-employed. Just a pity that it isn't working out very well for most of them:

http://www.newsweek.com/almost-80-uk-self-employed-workers-living-poverty-304168

80% of self-employed workers live in poverty.

I had to chuckle about your claims about "Social Engineering" by the New Labour government! I can almost hear your eyes swivelling from here!

Only a right-wing lunatic could counter the argument that immigration is required now to pay for and look after our swelling numbers of elderly people (with many more baby boomers soon to retire) with a plea worrying about a point 60 years in the future! If you stop immigration now, we will be having countless elderly people dying in squalor in their homes with little or no care in the near future.

Righty-ho. Need to get to work now.
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Grim74
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Quoted from Chrisblor


I can't be arsed to hack the rest of your nonsensical post to pieces, but this is total rubbish. A lack of wage growth in any sector is A Bad Thing. Just today it was quietly revealed that the UK's budget defecit had risen to £12.1bn (the highest level since 2011 and considerably higher than expected by analysts). The main reason for this? A fall in tax receipts due to stagnant wage growth. Why's there been a lack of wage growth? Because Gideon Oliver "George" Osborne's supposed economic recovery has been based around an increase in part-time, zero-hour and self-employed jobs as well as further inflation of our ridiculous housing bubble! Only 1 in 40 jobs created since the recession have been full-time (http://www.theguardian.com/bus.....loyee-tuc-employment) and the exchequer's now feeling the effects of this sham recovery through reduced income tax receipts.

A strong public sector with well renumerated staff is necessary for this country to function. Where would the private sector be without a functioning public sector containing things like roads, railway infrastructure, street lights, the police, the fire service and schools? Clearly you don't believe this as you've bought into the "lazy public sector workers" argument spread by the Tories and a complicit media. The wonderful and amazing private sector is hardly picking up the slack and showing the public sector where it's supposedly going wrong either - our national productivity is at the lowest level since World War 2 (http://www.theguardian.com/bus.....-since-wwii-says-ons).

George Osborne is a total fraud. As Maringer has quite clearly pointed out (with an array of well sourced evidence - not just from 'left wing newspapers') it isn't working for the poorest and most vulnerable in society. It's not working for me (a middle-class professional in his mid 20s with a respectable job stuck in rented accommodation with no hope of buying a house in the next decade). It's only working for those who already own a home, already have loads of assets, already have a huge pension saved up. The goal of a civilised society should be to ensure that the next generation are better off than the last. Up until recently that was clearly happening, but it's not any longer.


Here we go another liberal armed with his Guardian I bet you nearly ejaculated over your paper when you see the  'breaking news' lol, anyway I'm surprised we have so many Guardianistas in one place for a tabloid that sells about 100 rags a day, to be fair though they have given the chief U.K. Economist account in which she says 'the government is still on track, and that she expects growth of tax receipts to recover' so let's wait and see what happens in November and stop with the scaremongering.

Obviously I don't want cuts to essential public sector jobs you twonk, its the hundreds of thousands of meaningless jobs that where created under the labour government ensureing a mass rise in our council taxes to pay for it that are now being rightly axed in my opinion.

Give the man a chance there is no one else until UKIP steps up as the main opposition and see where we are in five years, because i'l be the first to stick the boot in if the king of scaremongering Maringer predictions come true, after all Labour just cannot be trusted its no coincidence every time they get booted out of office our economy is in turmoil.

As for you Maringer I'l need a stiff drink tonight (if I have time) to digest and dissect your latest rhetoric.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
September 23, 2015, 12:53pm
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It's not scaremongering to point out that Osborne's policies have crippled the recovery, increased inequality, hit low-paid workers, destroyed the quality of social care available due to council cuts and failed to reduce the deficit as promised (which was his whole reasoning behind the cuts).

It is also not scaremongering to point out that his plans to run a surplus by the end of parliament (which the buffoon wants to enshrine in law!) rely entirely on an increase of consumer debt to record levels. That's right, to 'fix' the economy, Osborne is expecting us all to borrow more money than we ever have in the past, even before the last recession which some blamed on too much borrowing! These two charts from the OBR illustrate this clearly. Perhaps you'd like to have an even stiffer drink and make a comment about these?

[img]https://commonspace.scot/public/filemanager/graph1.png[/img]

[img]https://commonspace.scot/public/filemanager/graph4.png[/img]

Oh, regarding your idea that the Labour Party is to blame for all economic turmoil in the world, ever, perhaps you can explain why 3 out of the last 4 recessions occurred under a Conservative government? Heath, Thatcher, Thatcher/Major then Brown.

P.S. I don't think the word 'rhetoric' means what you think it does if you class my evidence and data-laced posts as such. Now most of your posts, on the other hand...
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Maringer
September 24, 2015, 7:50am
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Wow, Osborne just can't help piling the excrement on the young, can he?

http://www.theguardian.com/edu.....-and-poor-most-study
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ginnywings
September 24, 2015, 12:41pm

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Quoted from Maringer
Wow, Osborne just can't help piling the excrement on the young, can he?

http://www.theguardian.com/edu.....-and-poor-most-study


Did you expect anything different? After being mean and stingy in coalition, the people unbelievably gave them a clear mandate to govern alone and they are not going to pass this opportunity by without shafting the weakest in society even more. They have carte blanche to run amok, especially as they probably think the next election is already in the bag too. It's a depressing thought.
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FishOutOfWater
September 24, 2015, 2:07pm
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Quoted from ginnywings


Did you expect anything different? After being mean and stingy in coalition, the people unbelievably gave them a clear mandate to govern alone and they are not going to pass this opportunity by without shafting the weakest in society even more. They have carte blanche to run amok, especially as they probably think the next election is already in the bag too. It's a depressing thought.


What is more unbelievable is that there are three times as many people who chose not to vote for the selfservatives
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Quoted from FishOutOfWater


What is more unbelievable is that there are three times as many people who chose not to vote for the selfservatives


We really need to sort out the way MP'S are elected,

SNP have 48 or whatever seats with less votes then UKIP who have one,

I believe that a hung parliament is good for the country,

If the MP'S do not do as we instruct them,

We hang them   


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
                             68 Years following the Town

                              Life member of Trust

                               First game   April 1955
                               
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Grim74
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Quoted from Maringer


First of all, thanks for the laugh. For somebody who criticises me for linking articles/reports in the Guardian (not to mention the IFS, OECD etc etc), to post a 'report' from the TaxPayers' Alliance from 2008 shows quite remarkable gall! Either that or you're simply taking the urine. Everybody knows that the TPA is a front for the Tories - it's supported by Tories, paid for by Tories and was established with the aim of reducing the size of government, the ultimate Tory Party wet dream.

It's amusing, also, that you're still trying to make the claim that Osborne's plans were in any way good. As I've poined out on many occasions, Osborne's original "Plan A", the one that the IMF and Ed Balls said would lead to a double dip recession wasn't followed, despite what he (and you) may claim! I've certainly posted links to this article before:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n04/simon-wren-lewis/the-austerity-con

Before you TLDR it, here's a simple diagram taken from the article which shows Osborne's claims about sticking to his "Plan A" are basically total bullshite:

[img]http://cdn.lrb.co.uk/assets/edillus/wren01_3704_01.gif[/img]

Osborne's plans made in 2010 were certainly leading us into a double-dip recession - which is why he quietly changed them in 2012 yet has never admitted he created a new "Plan A"! The fact that the BBC never pointed this out (the figures were publicly available and easy to understand) is one of the reasons that I believe the pro-Tory bias there (I have posted a report in the past from a respected indicating this - of course, you claimed this report was itself biased based on nothing more than a feeling in your water). Not surprising when you consider the BBC head of news is a former editor of The Times, Nick Robinson was head of the Young Conservatives and Andrew Neil is a former editor of The Sunday Times!

As I've noted in the past, the growth lost due to Osborne's policies has lost thousands of pounds per man, woman and child in the country - something which will never be recovered. The economy is now a lot smaller than it would have been if Osborne hadn't pursued his austerian policies so it's no surprise that tax receipts are currently falling far short of what was expected and he's still nowhere near closing the deficit.

As for his reasons for Austerity in the first place? Well, they were bullshit, as Krugman clearly shows here:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ng-interactive/2015/apr/29/the-austerity-delusion

Onto public vs private sector pay. Here's a useful recent report from the IFS:

http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r97.pdf

Here's a couple of excerpts from the summary:



So, public/private sector pay was pretty much the same for men but women (who are underpaid everywhere) have a slight benefit. This is as last year. This year, with continued public sector pay freezes, the balance is clearly going to swing the other way. The forecast by the OBR implies that, for example, it will soon be difficult for the NHS to employ nurses/doctors etc due to the pay differential between the public and private sectors! Why, it's almost as if the government plans to shaft the NHS, isn't it?

Now, no doubt that public sector pay was a bit higher in comparison to private sector when the coalition came into power, but why should public sector pay freezes below the rate of inflation be a good thing? Wouldn't it have been nice if private sector wages had instead increased at a greater rate to match the difference? Don't try and claim that those poor corporations couldn't afford it, as they have been doing very well since the recession, thanks, Jack:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/corporate-profits

(Select the 'Max' option)

I note that you've still not responded as to whether you think it is fair for the poorest in society to be made worse off due to the tax credit cuts, whilst the wealthier are handed tax breaks. I'm guessing you do, because nothing shows those poor workers what's what like cutting their income, does it? Hope your son does well with his apprenticeship. He'll need to if he's going to have a chance with all the problems the current government is piling onto the young.

The rest of your post is pretty much gibberish. You think that my statistics, facts and figures about poverty don't reflect the real world. Well, where do you think they come from, then? They aren't magically pulled out of the air! You say one thing, I post data which shows this isn't a correct view of the world and you either naysay it or say it is biased.

I've never been indoctrinated by anybody. Most of my friends have the same "I'm all right, Jack" attitude that you share and I doubt any of them voted for Labour. I tend to doubt my parents vote Labour (they read the Daily Mail, FFS). I've also never been a member of a political party though I did register as a 'supporter' to vote for Corbyn in the leadership contest. He's literally the only person in a major political party who has come up with a plan to deal with the completely broken housing market (something your son will be facing very soon). At least he seems to be moving the debate to some degree.

Regarding the ever-increasing numbers of self-employed which are now at record numbers. In fact, a majority of the jobs added over the last 5 years or so are self-employed. Just a pity that it isn't working out very well for most of them:

http://www.newsweek.com/almost-80-uk-self-employed-workers-living-poverty-304168

80% of self-employed workers live in poverty.

I had to chuckle about your claims about "Social Engineering" by the New Labour government! I can almost hear your eyes swivelling from here!

Only a right-wing lunatic could counter the argument that immigration is required now to pay for and look after our swelling numbers of elderly people (with many more baby boomers soon to retire) with a plea worrying about a point 60 years in the future! If you stop immigration now, we will be having countless elderly people dying in squalor in their homes with little or no care in the near future.

Righty-ho. Need to get to work now.


And he's off...............talk about going off on a tangent you just can't stick to the thread topic can you....... But wait are you deliberately hijacking this thread in order to take the conversation away from your poster boy?  maybe you feel he's not getting the credit on here you believe he deserves, so you blind us with graphs, bar charts, line charts, and pie charts I didn't see this many charts in 12 years of school your a fanatic! do you live on your own?

Right I'l say it all again "we have done tax credits to death" I thought we gave a good balanced argument from both sides of the fence on the 'tax credit' thread to be fair or at least I thought, but hey if you want to carry the tax credits debate on then do it on there and il happily oblige, now as for George Osbourne, the BBC (where you conveniently failed to mention all the left wing bigwigs), austerity, food banks, private sector, public sector, NHS, poverty, war etc,etc, then start another thread, some of us have a life, or at least limit your topics per post to give myself and others a chance, your like Gordon Brown on acid holding the public purse and not knowing when to stop.

Anyway I still need to respond to some of your drivel.....
let's face it your a hardline Tory hating lefty your like a mouth to a light when it comes to the slightest unfavourable report In the left wing media as your most recent post shows, ( I bet that made your day) you even had the audacity to come back at me with a pretence matter of fact report on austerity by a socialist, Corbyrn supporting blogger!

And at the other end of the spectrum I do sway to the right and tend to favour the right wing media but I will frequent the likes of the Guardian and the Independent to gauge alternative views, (I've posted links to both these rags on here at some time or other to make my point) I used the TPA report because it was the most in depth damning report at the time, a report that wasn't even challenged, Brown himself admitted he made mistakes.

So let's cut out the biased propaganda shall we and stick to the facts....on the economy for a start,  ONS, IMF, CPI yes for example and I will agree, but let's not forget it's early days yet I could mention the inflation figures that supports the chief economic advisors claim the economy is on track, but let's wait and see at least for the cumulative financial year to date figures that will give us a clear indication of where we are heading.

I'm disgusted that you think it's funny what Blair and Mandelson did to this country but this can wait for now because it's not the place, So try not to drift of to much in future Maringer and you might find more people responding to your posts. Good night 😑





Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Zmariner
September 24, 2015, 11:29pm
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Quoted from Maringer


The spending cuts have been an absolutely disastrous policy which have led to the worst recovery from a recession in our country's history. Osborne inherited a decent recovery in 2010 (growth of over 2% and on an upward track), and his austerity cut it dead - we were heading for a double-dip recession and only avoided this because Osborne quietly stopped austerity in 2012, leading to the poor recovery we have seen.

I'm afraid that Brown's policies were in no way socialist. Very centrist (and not a great deal different than the Major government in many respects), didn't attempt to fix the horribly broken housing market, didn't introduce any sort of progressive taxation and inequality (which many studies show is bad for the general economy) soared during the New Labour years. Though not as much as it has increased since 2010.

I'm afraid you're mistaken if you think progressive taxation doesn't work. As noted above, there are plenty of studies which show that progressive taxation leads to more equality and a stronger economy.

Incidentally, as you mention you work in finance, I can understand why you may hold many of the views you've just mentioned because I'm sure you'll be surrounded by people espousing these views. They conveniently forget that it was the financial sector which caused the crash and recession in 2008 and much of the huge national debt we now have came from bailing out the banks. Not that this is anything to do with you, of course!

In fact, there is research which shows a large financial sector in an economy (which doesn't actually produce anything, remember) is actually bad for growth overall. Even the Economist magazine seems happy to accept this:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2015/02/finance-sector-and-growth

You've also apparently bought into the usual poverty myths about 'skivers vs strivers'. They are just that - myths. TV shows of the likes of Benefits Street and Skint show a tiny proportion of the population and the vast majority are nothing like some of the likely characters appearing in those shows.

Anyway, nice to have a civilised tone to a debate, something one or two on this board can't manage.  


Always civilised. I do not watch the shows that you refer to but I do not like the idea of unlimited benefits which Corbyn propose and my opinions are very much my own. Tuition fees will cost me as my kids are likely to go to Uni but I do not expect the state to pay for the education of my kids. I am not a fan of consistent quantative easing. Some of Corbyn's ideals are good but he will be faced by a lot of people like me and he will need to capture middle England or he will go the same way as Foot/Kinnock and friends. Great guys but unelectable.
I do not want to see endless money thrown at the NHS and I do not want open door immigration as I can not see the point on debates on stretched public services when net immigration is so high. Each to their own with politics but Corbyn would need to change his thinking on several issues to get close to getting my vote
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Maringer
September 25, 2015, 7:23am
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Quoted from Zmariner


Always civilised. I do not watch the shows that you refer to but I do not like the idea of unlimited benefits which Corbyn propose and my opinions are very much my own. Tuition fees will cost me as my kids are likely to go to Uni but I do not expect the state to pay for the education of my kids. I am not a fan of consistent quantative easing. Some of Corbyn's ideals are good but he will be faced by a lot of people like me and he will need to capture middle England or he will go the same way as Foot/Kinnock and friends. Great guys but unelectable.
I do not want to see endless money thrown at the NHS and I do not want open door immigration as I can not see the point on debates on stretched public services when net immigration is so high. Each to their own with politics but Corbyn would need to change his thinking on several issues to get close to getting my vote


Hmmm, I think the idea of 'unlimited' benefits is just the return to the previous system where families were entitled to all of the relevant benefits rather than having them cut off at some arbitrary level. If the individual benefits are designed to fit a need, how can it be sensible to arbitrarily cut some of them? The need still exists. The main one the cap is intended to deal with is the ballooning levels of housing benefit. This is because the social housing sector has been pretty much destroyed since the days of Thatcher and, due to the government's idiotic policies of pumping up the housing market, rents are simply unaffortable for most of the poorest in society. As it stands, the further reduced benefits cap stands to make it impossible for the poor to live in large areas of the country. Check the two charts from Shelter in the following article which illustrate this clearly:

http://www.theguardian.com/soc.....-cities-unaffordable

Why don't you think the state should pay for University education? I didn't pay any fees at University. Neither did Cameron, Osborne, Miliband, Brown, Blair, Clegg etc. A number of my friends at University received full grants to help pay their way through their studies as well though most of these also had jobs. Bringing in fees was probably one of the worst things that New Labour did because it gave the Conservatives an excuse to ramp them up ludicrously. We've followed the American model where students now leave University with enormous debts. In the majority of civilised countries, further education remains almost free because governments understand there is a need to develop workers to help the economy.

I think you're actually perhaps a little misinformed about People's QE. There has been £375 billion of QE so far, and most of the benefit of this have gone into the pockets of the bankers and the financial sector (which is obviously good for you!). The thought process behind PQE isn't to run it consistently regardless of the state of the economy, just when it would benefit the economy. There is a pretty good chance there will be another economic crisis during the next parliament (wobbles in China, gigantic housing bubble rebuilding, increased household debt etc) and, with interest rates at almost zero and inflation at zero there is little conventional policy could do to deal with this. PQE through a National Investment Bank would be one thing that could work - even it's critics agree with this.

It is absolutely clear that one thing we need to do is spend a heck of a lot more on the NHS. It's close to collapsse at present due to lack of funds. We've got an aging population, the baby boomers are retiring and people are living much longer due to medical advances. Nowhere has never had this sort of age balance in the past so it is inevitable that healthcare and social spending is going to have to increase an enormous amount to pay for it all.
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Maringer
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Quoted from Grim74


And he's off...............talk about going off on a tangent you just can't stick to the thread topic can you....... But wait are you deliberately hijacking this thread in order to take the conversation away from your poster boy?  maybe you feel he's not getting the credit on here you believe he deserves, so you blind us with graphs, bar charts, line charts, and pie charts I didn't see this many charts in 12 years of school your a fanatic! do you live on your own?

...

So let's cut out the biased propaganda shall we and stick to the facts....on the economy for a start,  ONS, IMF, CPI yes for example and I will agree, but let's not forget it's early days yet I could mention the inflation figures that supports the chief economic advisors claim the economy is on track, but let's wait and see at least for the cumulative financial year to date figures that will give us a clear indication of where we are heading.

I'm disgusted that you think it's funny what Blair and Mandelson did to this country but this can wait for now because it's not the place, So try not to drift of to much in future Maringer and you might find more people responding to your posts. Good night 😑



Here are the only parts of your post I'll bother to reply to. Firstly, let me make it very clear:

Every one of my comments in that post was in response to a point in your post.

If you want to criticise me for going off-topic, stick to the topic yourself.

However, I really don't see what your problem here is in any case. Corbyn's arrival on the national stage of politics has opened up debate about all aspects of policy - economy, benefits, investment, immigration etc. Quite reasonable that we should discuss them in this thread.

The fact that you didn't bother to offer a substantive response to any of the points made doesn't surprise me because I am well used to it, as I am to the litany of insults in the rest of your post, veiled or otherwise.

Onto your two final paragraphs. Nice to see you are in agreement that using facts and statistics as the base of information. From reading the information (not propaganda) I have posted in those various links, you must now agree Osborne's "Plan A" didn't work and he needed to change his policy. It should also mean that you now agree that Balls and the IMF weren't incorrect by saying his plans would lead to a double-dip recession, because his plans clearly changed a great deal. I'm sure you will agree?

I'm not quite sure what you think the inflation figures show. The sole mandate of the Bank of England is price stability and the aim is for a 2% inflation target, something they have failed to achieve. Low inflation (verging on deflation) is a bad thing for the economy as a whole - many economists actually advocate an inflation target of 4% because this would give room for manouevre when another economic shock hits. If we avoid heading into deflation later this year, I'll be surprised.

Finally, the idea that I am a fan of the New Labour project (Blair and Mandelson especially) is just nonsense. I've merely pointed out that the Tory claims (echoed by you) that they were massively overspending when in power is simply not true. You can certainly argue that some of their spending was poorly-targetted (and acceleration the Tory policy of PFI was an abomination), but ridiculous overspending? That's a lie.
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September 25, 2015, 10:36am
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Quoted from Zmariner


Always civilised. I do not watch the shows that you refer to but I do not like the idea of unlimited benefits which Corbyn propose and my opinions are very much my own. Tuition fees will cost me as my kids are likely to go to Uni but I do not expect the state to pay for the education of my kids. I am not a fan of consistent quantative easing. Some of Corbyn's ideals are good but he will be faced by a lot of people like me and he will need to capture middle England or he will go the same way as Foot/Kinnock and friends. Great guys but unelectable.
I do not want to see endless money thrown at the NHS and I do not want open door immigration as I can not see the point on debates on stretched public services when net immigration is so high. Each to their own with politics but Corbyn would need to change his thinking on several issues to get close to getting my vote


Disagree with you not expecting the state to pay for education but a good sensible straight to the point post never the less, it's good we now have alternative views you could of been mistaken for being on the socialists members board at times on here.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Grim74
September 25, 2015, 10:31pm
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Unbelievable he appoints  a vegan as his shadow environment secretary, I was going to say you couldn't make it up but then again it's the mad hatter Jeremy Corbyrn we are talking about.
Oh well that's him alienated from the farming industry -
http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....-kerry-10515299.html


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Zmariner
September 26, 2015, 12:57am
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Quoted from Maringer


Hmmm, I think the idea of 'unlimited' benefits is just the return to the previous system where families were entitled to all of the relevant benefits rather than having them cut off at some arbitrary level. If the individual benefits are designed to fit a need, how can it be sensible to arbitrarily cut some of them? The need still exists. The main one the cap is intended to deal with is the ballooning levels of housing benefit. This is because the social housing sector has been pretty much destroyed since the days of Thatcher and, due to the government's idiotic policies of pumping up the housing market, rents are simply unaffortable for most of the poorest in society. As it stands, the further reduced benefits cap stands to make it impossible for the poor to live in large areas of the country. Check the two charts from Shelter in the following article which illustrate this clearly:
i do not like the housing market but interest rate rises will calm it. I have sympathy with the unemployed although to be fair there are some areas that I could not afford to live in and so would move. Anyway I am very happy in the Grimsby area
http://www.theguardian.com/soc.....-cities-unaffordable

Why don't you think the state should pay for University education? I didn't pay any fees at University. Neither did Cameron, Osborne, Miliband, Brown, Blair, Clegg etc. A number of my friends at University received full grants to help pay their way through their studies as well though most of these also had jobs. Bringing in fees was probably one of the worst things that New Labour did because it gave the Conservatives an excuse to ramp them up ludicrously. We've followed the American model where students now leave University with enormous debts. In the majority of civilised countries, further education remains almost free because governments understand there is a need to develop workers to help the economy.
I only agree where the course is linked to a service that we need. Education for the sake of it does not serve the majority and I would prefer a German or Swiss based approach providing apprenticeship type skills as I am ultra sceptical about some courses and would not fund my own kids through a fine arts degree. I worked all through Uni and got a very small grant.

I think you're actually perhaps a little misinformed about People's QE. There has been £375 billion of QE so far, and most of the benefit of this have gone into the pockets of the bankers and the financial sector (which is obviously good for you!). The thought process behind PQE isn't to run it consistently regardless of the state of the economy, just when it would benefit the economy. There is a pretty good chance there will be another economic crisis during the next parliament (wobbles in China, gigantic housing bubble rebuilding, increased household debt etc) and, with interest rates at almost zero and inflation at zero there is little conventional policy could do to deal with this. PQE through a National Investment Bank would be one thing that could work - even it's critics agree with this.

It is absolutely clear that one thing we need to do is spend a heck of a lot more on the NHS. It's close to collapsse at present due to lack of funds. We've got an aging population, the baby boomers are retiring and people are living much longer due to medical advances. Nowhere has never had this sort of age balance in the past so it is inevitable that healthcare and social spending is going to have to increase an enormous amount to pay for it all.

Who do you propose pays for everything? if we lived in an environment with unlimited money no problem, you can easily spend yourself poor.
Nothing is perfect and we will all take our own road in politics based upon our life experiences. I am from a socialist background and could accept a moderate approach. Corbyn is way too off centre for me and as I said before open door immigration concerns me
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Maringer
September 28, 2015, 8:53am
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Quoted from Zmariner

Who do you propose pays for everything? if we lived in an environment with unlimited money no problem, you can easily spend yourself poor.
Nothing is perfect and we will all take our own road in politics based upon our life experiences. I am from a socialist background and could accept a moderate approach. Corbyn is way too off centre for me and as I said before open door immigration concerns me


Sorry the delay in responding. Busy DIY-ish weekend.  

I was actually rather dismayed by McDonnell's comments towards the end of last week where he appeared to commit to signing up to Osborne's ludicrous idea of running a government surplus by 2020:

http://www.theguardian.com/pol.....ive-within-our-means

As has been noted earlier in the thread, for this to be possible, this would require an enormous increase in both private debt and business investment. The first is a ridiculous concept as private debt is high enough as thing stands and the second isn't likely to occur as business investment is very low at present with no indication anything is to change.

Reading more closely, there is some nuance there:

Quoted Text
But he indicates that his support for the charter is qualified because he believes that only the current account should be balanced to give the government space to borrow to fund infrastructure projects.


In other words, he's still rather different from Osborne who claims to want a surplus after all spending is considered, one of the reasons that government investment in the economy is incredibly low in comparison to our economic competitors which is undoubtedly why our productivity is also appalling. I'd imagine that McDonnell is simply providing lip service to Osborne's idea of a surplus as he knows it is pretty impossible for it to occur in current economic conditions. Can't say I'm happy with this ploy because it still lets the Tories control the narrative and misinforms the electorate that the 'deficit' is the be all and end all at the moment. It also strikes me as disingenuous, but then I suppose it is no more dishonest than Osborne's policies.

Anyway, despite my misgivings about McDonnell because of these comments, he's pretty clear as to how he would close the deficit. Increase taxes on the wealthy instead of cutting them as Osborne has done, crack down on tax evasion/avoidance by big business and the wealthy, implement a financial transaction levy, a policy which has widespread support throughout much of the world. Stop the race to the bottom with corporate taxation - our levels of Corporation Tax are already the lowest in the G20, but Osborne is cutting them even further!

I notice on the BBC this morning that McDonnell was interviewed and was asked if his tax plans were targetting the middle class! That is pretty much right out of the Tory propaganda handbook. Just because the top level income tax rate has been brought down to 45%, doesn't mean that raising it higher isn't possible. During the 1950s and 1960s when the economy saw enormous growth, the highest level of income tax was 90%! Nobody is advocating that sort of a level now but a rise north of 50% for the wealthiest, perhaps up to 60% would certainly be acceptable to most. Also a lot of other taxation reform is required and some investment in HMRC would be welcome. Tens of thousands of jobs in HMRC have been lost since 2010 and the service is reportedly pretty much unable to carry out proper investigations any longer which will only help tax evaders. Oh, one area of tax reform which might be a great idea would be to implement a General Anti-Avoidance Rule as they have in India. This would nullify the complex financial structures used by the likes of Gary Barlow/Jimmy Carr/Lots of wealthy people to try and avoid paying their taxes. Quite reasonable to think that the wealthy shouldn't be able to avoid paying their taxes just because they have expensive lawyers/accountants trying to work the system in their favour. After all, the man on the street can't benefit in the same way! Whether or not this will be part of the Corbyn/McDonnell policy remains to be seen.

Another thing which I think is a good idea would be to invest in building lots of new social housing to help sort out the crisis in the housing market. Housing benefit cost is currently circa £25 billion per annum and this is only set to rise. Not sure if this will become McDonnell's policy either, but this report released today notes that investing to build an additional 100,000 homes per year in the council house/housing association sector would actually make a net saving (£5.8 billion is the figure calculated) due to the reduction in housing benefit payments! With the ballooning increase in housing benefit (number of working families receiving it has more than doubled in the past 5 years), it seems very sensible for government-led building, especially when the private sector has no interest in building the necessary numbers of affordable homes. First link is to the Guardian article discussing the policy, second link is to the report itself:

http://www.theguardian.com/pol.....ng-drive-since-1970s

https://smithinstitutethinktank.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/high-aspirations-sound-foundations.pdf
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Town Monkey
September 28, 2015, 3:31pm
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"Oh, one area of tax reform which might be a great idea would be to implement a General Anti-Avoidance Rule as they have in India. This would nullify the complex financial structures used by the likes of Gary Barlow/Jimmy Carr/Lots of wealthy people to try and avoid paying their taxes. Quite reasonable to think that the wealthy shouldn't be able to avoid paying their taxes just because they have expensive lawyers/accountants trying to work the system in their favour. After all, the man on the street can't benefit in the same way! Whether or not this will be part of the Corbyn/McDonnell policy remains to be seen."

We've had a GAAR for a couple of years now.  It was brought in by the Coalition in FA 2013 (I think).  It's an idea that had been doing the rounds for a long period of time (and wasn't invented by Richard Murphy as he claimed in last week's Guardian).  The previous Labour government could have introduced one but preferred to make piecemeal changes to plug loopholes that their own badly worded legislation created.  Also, I'm really not sure you should be holding out India's tax system as a paragon of virtue.  It is the most complicated and unstable regime I've come across.  Have a look into Minimum Alternative Tax for example.  It is the very definition of an omnishambles.

I will also take issue with the general narrative around McDonnell's speech today regarding Starbucks etal.  He claims that he'll make sure they pay their fair share but doesn't say how.  I wonder if he supports the diverted profits tax which has been introduced (unwisely in my opinion) by GO.  Or the OECDs base erosion and profit shifting initiative which the UK has been at the forefront of?

I agree with you regarding social house building, the more we can build, the better, as long as it's of a reasonable standard.  I think this was supposed to be the point of revitalising right to buy, with all proceeds ploughed into new housing but I think we discussed a while ago that this simply wasn't happening.  This has to be made a priority for a variety of reasons as you stated.  It will have a positive impact on the deficit (albeit with a short term impact on debt) so even I could buy into that!  Obviously, it should also help towards addressing the housing crisis.  We can't afford to be dogmatic with such an important issue.  
  
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Maringer
September 28, 2015, 5:26pm
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Quoted from Town Monkey

We've had a GAAR for a couple of years now.  It was brought in by the Coalition in FA 2013 (I think).  It's an idea that had been doing the rounds for a long period of time (and wasn't invented by Richard Murphy as he claimed in last week's Guardian).  The previous Labour government could have introduced one but preferred to make piecemeal changes to plug loopholes that their own badly worded legislation created.  Also, I'm really not sure you should be holding out India's tax system as a paragon of virtue.  It is the most complicated and unstable regime I've come across.  Have a look into Minimum Alternative Tax for example.  It is the very definition of an omnishambles.

I will also take issue with the general narrative around McDonnell's speech today regarding Starbucks etal.  He claims that he'll make sure they pay their fair share but doesn't say how.  I wonder if he supports the diverted profits tax which has been introduced (unwisely in my opinion) by GO.  Or the OECDs base erosion and profit shifting initiative which the UK has been at the forefront of?

I agree with you regarding social house building, the more we can build, the better, as long as it's of a reasonable standard.  I think this was supposed to be the point of revitalising right to buy, with all proceeds ploughed into new housing but I think we discussed a while ago that this simply wasn't happening.  This has to be made a priority for a variety of reasons as you stated.  It will have a positive impact on the deficit (albeit with a short term impact on debt) so even I could buy into that!  Obviously, it should also help towards addressing the housing crisis.  We can't afford to be dogmatic with such an important issue.  
  


Good point about the GAAR. I've seen articles where Murphy and others discuss a General Anti-Avoidance Principle earlier this year and assumed it was the same thing as a GAAR. Turns out it isn't!

Murphy's views on the GAAR which has been implemented don't appear to be very flattering and I note that Michael Meacher tabled a private members bill in 2012 trying to promote Murphy's Anti-Avoidance Principle instead. Didn't get anywhere, of course.

I've only heard the odd bit from McDonnell's speech today and did wonder what his plans were about the big corporations who have arranged their affairs to avoid taxes such as Starbucks and the like. I was under the impression that this sort of issue could only really be resolved if all of the major economies get together and come to an agreement with matching legislation so the corporations can't get away with shifting the funds around? I guessed McDonnell's comments here were just a soundbyte, rather than anything, but I've only heard snatches of what was said. One thing is for sure, something has to change because it is anti-competitive that these corporations can dodge taxes that their smaller competitors are bound to pay.

I know that Murphy is very unimpressed with Osborne's further reductions in Corporation Tax - he notes that Osborne is trying to turn the UK into a tax haven!

I really do think that housing is one of the biggest issues at present. We're bound to be plunged into another recession sooner rather than later if the bubble continues to be inflated, aided and abetted by the BTL bunch and stupid government subsidies. It is simply unsustainable.
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forza ivano
October 2, 2015, 9:47pm

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Haven't read all the posts but my dad made probably the defining points as to why Corbin will fail. A you cannot distespect the royal family in any way an b by refusing to push the button in any scenario he has cooked his goose. You can't win an election by maintaining those two stances.sorry I admire him greatly but that is electoral suicide
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Maringer
October 2, 2015, 11:08pm
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The Queen is worthy of respect for the way she has comported herself over the years. The rest of them? Pretty much worthless. Anybody who thinks you should show them respect just because they are 'royal' is a bloody idiot.

Good to see that Corbyn has stood by his guns as regards the nuclear issue. I'd imagine it might well cost a number of votes but, if you think about it sensibly, if we were to ever get to the stage where 'pushing the button' occurred, we'd be dead in any case. The Cold War is over. Russia is jockeying for position with the rest of the world but know that if atomic weapons were ever launched, we'd be talking Mutually Assured Destruction. In such a case, our small island would be obliterated.

Other than Russia, who does Trident 'deter'? Why would we ever launch a nuclear attack on China, India or Pakistan? Or why would they ever launch an attack on us? North Korea are attempting to develop ICBMs (years away from this yet) but know they would be obliterated in the event of any atomic hostilities against another nation. Personally, I'm not entirely convinced that Iran actually are looking to build nuclear weapons but, if they are, why would we ever be a target? We're 3,500 miles away from each other! Again, they know they would be obliterated in the event of any attack.

As it stands, Trident is nothing more than a British subsidy for the American defence complex. They manufacture and service the missiles, a service for which we pay for handsomely. All the other NATO members (with the exception of France, who manufacture their own Nuclear weapons) don't need to bother with a deterrent themselves because, well, they are NATO members.

It just doesn't make sense, I'm afraid. Polaris (another expensive American import) didn't work very well in stopping the Argentines in the 1980s, did it? Since the Cold War ended, the idea of a nuclear deterrent just no longer works.
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forza ivano
October 3, 2015, 12:21am

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You may well have a valid case maringer, but unfortunately hardly anyone engages in, listens to and takes on board intelligent discussion points. It always comes down to the economy stupid plus a love of Britain, British history, our supremacy , a distrust of Europe, and absolute god like devotion to the queen. You might not like it, it might be completely irrational but that's how it is. You cannot disrespect the queen, war heroes, our history, let alone consider that we are not amongst the masters of the universe! You're a lone voice in the wilderness maringer. Doesn't make you wrong and it's great you put forward such a cogent argument, however it just won't wash with the majority of the population. I love reading your posts and considering your arguments but it's me you and half a dozen others amongst 100+ posters.says it all really about the level of debate in UK politics
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Maringer
October 3, 2015, 7:59am
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Disrespect is an noun, not a verb. Sorry, I'm not having a dig at you personally, but it is one of my pet peeves that it seems to have been 'verbified' over the past decade or so simply because of US rappers! Drives me nuts how this usage has become commonplace.  

Anyway, it is simply nonsense to claim that Corbyn showed any disrespect to the Battle of Britain bods by not singing the National Anthem, a song which let's not forget makes not a single mention of British armed forces! Unless you're talking about the final verse (never sung) praising Marshal Wade for beating down the Jacobite rebellion! The implication that Corbyn, a republican, was showing disrespect to war veterans by not singing the anthem was simply propaganda from the right-wing media - the first thing that they could attack him for other than being himself. Fallon's ridiculous posturing looking around for the cameras at that memorial service was more offensive, if you ask me.

I'm in agreement with you that some people conflate the royal family and patriotism, but I'd be surprised if there was quite the level of support for this view as you think there is. I'd imagine the older generations are more royalist due to the way in which they were raised but hopefully a much larger proportion of the younger generations will see what a load of claptrap this all is.

I have to admit that it is only relatively recently (earlier this year) that I've actually thought much about the Nuclear Deterrent. Obviously, I grew up during the Cold War and I can remember being scared as a kid about the thought of nuclear war. Could hear the Lightnings revving up their engines at Binbrook late at night and sometimes wondered what was occurring, if an attack was coming. Because of this, I had always thought it was good to have the deterrent but, as I have mentioned, in the current environment, who exactly is it deterring?

The Russians aren't going to launch a nuclear attack on the west because we are their trading partners and they rely on us for a market for their gas and oil. None of the other nuclear powers is situated anywhere near us - we're just not operating in similar spheres of influence, so there there is no chance any of those would or even could make a nuclear attack on us and we're not on bad terms with any of them. Note, I don't really classify North Korea as a 'proper' nuclear power as yet as they have only set off a couple of tiny devices but they are over 5,000 miles from us in any case so no threat at all.

If, heaven forbid, terrorists were able to get their hands on a nuclear device and launched an attack here or in the US, the nuclear deterrent isn't exactly going to make a difference there either! This is the biggest risk from nuclear weapons, I expect.

It's good to get people thinking about things instead of just accepting what they read in the media as the unadulterated truth, but I don't expect many people read this forum so I'm not expecting to change many (if any!) minds. I've spent 40-odd years thinking a deterrent is a good idea but now think, what's the point of it? If I can have my mind changed about something, anybody can.  
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October 16, 2015, 8:21am
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Morning, peeps. Not much to discuss for a while, but I thought I would pop in to note that I was (sort of) pleased to see that McDonnell dropped his plans to back Osborne's preposterous "Charter of Budget Responsibility". I realise that he originally only added backing in an attempt to point out how ludicrous the whole concept is but that was really poor planning and he has rightfully been the brunt of some mockery for the u-turn. Unfortunately, the media being what it is, this means that all the coverage of Osborne's stunt has been about McDonnell's apparent flip-flop instead of pointing out how utterly nonsensical the policy is. I think the issue is that most media commentators are probably about as clueless about macroeconomics as the average man on the street so have bought into the Tory propaganda equating the nation's economy with a household budget which is complete and utter drivel. Would be nice if some journalists could educate themselves about sectoral balances a smidgeon before accepting Osborne's ploy as some sort of a sensible policy. If McDonnell had opposed the ridiculous CBR from the start, he could have spent a couple of weeks attacking it so really poor politicking from him, apart from anything else.

I see there are a good proportion of poisonous Blairites MPs still trying to stick the knife in at any given opportunity instead of attempting to show any sort of a unity and I was disappointed to see Onn being named as one stirring the pot in the press the other week. If I didn't have a lot on at the moment, I might have gone to a local Labour Party meeting to ask her what the intercourse she was playing at, but then I'm not a member of the party so that perhaps wouldn't be quite right in any case. Hopefully, some of the actual local party members will take her to task.

It seems to me that the problem with Corbyn's leadership group at the moment is that, because they have long been outsiders, they don't have a political machine surrounding them with competent organisers and fixers arranging things. Now, the Labour Party did obviously have such people (of debatable competence at times, you'd have to say), but these were all integrated within the Blairite faction and, instead of backing the new leadership and helping out, they seem to be doing their darndest to put the boot in! I hope that Corbyn can get somebody to organise things and start cracking the whip because we desperately need a stronger opposition to confront the Tories and their appallingly cynical policies, all of which seem to be aiming for a further increase in the transfer of wealth to the rich.

Oh, I notice that the Treasury is being accused of deliberately fudging a report about the impacts of the benefit cuts, releasing a limited impact assessment which conveniently misses out a whole group of workers who will lose out:

http://www.theguardian.com/mon.....pact-tax-credit-cuts

We know that Cameron et al have been claiming nobody will lose out, or simply ignore any questions about this at PMQs the other day, so you can see why it is so important to have a capable opposition to point out when the government is lying whether baldly, or by omission.

A good job we've got the IFS around to produce their reports which show the truth of the matter. The difficulty is getting people to discover the truth, instead of believing the bluster they read in the media.
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grimsby pete
October 16, 2015, 10:32am

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I agree with Ivano that Corbyn will never be Prime Minister because of his views on Royalty and defence,

I think he has been great in getting more people talking about politics,

It is great to have a leader saying what he believes instead of all the waffle we normally get,

BUT

Win an election ?  no chance.


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October 16, 2015, 10:55am
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We'll have to see. If the economy tanks at some point in the next four years, as seems quite likely, the Tories don't have anyone left to blame now - though I'm sure they and their captive press will try to blame the Labour party in some manner! Once the tax credit cuts hit next April, we're going to have millions of lower earners finding themselves worse off which will remove even more demand from the economy. Allied to this, rents have just reached a record high:

http://www.theguardian.com/mon.....ing-housing-shortage

No chance of the housing shortage being sorted out when Osborne won't consider any investment in this area and their housing policy remains ludicrous, just based on destroying the social housing sector to help pump up the property market further. We're still barely into recovery from the recession 6 years ago, GDP per capita only just nudging past 2008 levels and wage growth is only very gradual. The worst recovery from a recession since the South Sea Bubble almost 300 years ago! Productivity very poor and falling further behind our competitors. Fundamentally, the economy is in a very poor position and we have Osborne playing his political games rather than attempting to deal with them.

There is a lot of excrement around and plenty of time for it to hit the fan yet. Whether or not Corbyn remains in charge come the next election remains to be seen.
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grimsby pete
October 16, 2015, 10:59am

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Don't forget Labour lost 40 seats in Scotland and are unlikely to win them back at the next general election at least,

So they will need a massive turn round in England to pip the tories,

I can not see that happening soon.

Sadly.


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Maringer
October 17, 2015, 10:03am
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Don't get me wrong, Pete, I think it would be very difficult for Labour to win a majority in the next election, not just because of the SNP seats, but also because the Tories are fiddling around with the boundaries as well as reducing the number of MPs. Stands to reason that they will gerrymander to some degree.

However, it may be possible to win a few of the SNP seats back, I suppose, and a coalition with the SNP, Plaid Cymru plus the odd Green seat (and any LibDems, providing they don't side with their Tory mates again), might be more likely.

If this was to come to pass, I certainly hope that they would look to implement some sort of a proportional representation system again so we couldn't have the position where one party can do pretty much whatever they please after receiving the backing of just 24% of the electorate. As I've noted in the past, I think getting rid of first past the post would improve the standard of our politics enormously as we might then end up with a more sensible consensus. That said, as some of the bullshite the Blairite faction of Labour MPs have pulled in recent weeks shows, it could well take some time before enough sensible candidates could be found to break away from the old mentality!
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grimsby pete
October 17, 2015, 11:16am

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I see he  is now vice president of CND,


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Marinerz93
October 18, 2015, 9:17am

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Quoted from Maringer
Don't get me wrong, Pete, I think it would be very difficult for Labour to win a majority in the next election, not just because of the SNP seats, but also because the Tories are fiddling around with the boundaries as well as reducing the number of MPs. Stands to reason that they will gerrymander to some degree.

However, it may be possible to win a few of the SNP seats back, I suppose, and a coalition with the SNP, Plaid Cymru plus the odd Green seat (and any LibDems, providing they don't side with their Tory mates again), might be more likely.

If this was to come to pass, I certainly hope that they would look to implement some sort of a proportional representation system again so we couldn't have the position where one party can do pretty much whatever they please after receiving the backing of just 24% of the electorate. As I've noted in the past, I think getting rid of first past the post would improve the standard of our politics enormously as we might then end up with a more sensible consensus. That said, as some of the bullshite the Blairite faction of Labour MPs have pulled in recent weeks shows, it could well take some time before enough sensible candidates could be found to break away from the old mentality!


Wouldn't have been an issue if Labour had done that when they were in power as they claimed they were going to do. It just goes to show how far Labout have fallen when the SNP are mocking Labour.


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Green27
October 18, 2015, 10:41am
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Well I like him


We do the DN35 Podcast
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November 18, 2015, 2:50am
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I've given it literally minutes of thought and I reckon Corbyn is a double agent working for the Tories. It makes much more sense than him actually wanting to win an election.
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Grim74
November 18, 2015, 7:29am
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There wil be a lot of patriotic labour family's up and down the country that have supported labour for generations now asking themselves how could we now  vote for this out of touch cretin, this is the man who wants to give the Falklands to Argentina, abolish our army, have no nuclear deterrent, doesn't want to take on terrorists, and describes the death of Osama bin laden has a tradgedy!!


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ginnywings
November 18, 2015, 7:46am

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Quoted from Grim74
There wil be a lot of patriotic labour family's up and down the country that have supported labour for generations now asking themselves how could we now  vote for this out of touch cretin, this is the man who wants to give the Falklands to Argentina, abolish our army, have no nuclear deterrent, doesn't want to take on terrorists, and describes the death of Osama bin laden has a tradgedy!!


Ah yes, much better to be totally divisive and shaft your own electorate all in the name of greed and profit. I don't give a fook about the Falklands and Bin Laden but i do about poverty and lack of opportunity for the majority of our citizens. Every time i see Cameron and Osbourne, i see everything i hate about the state of the country. No, he'll probably never win an election but neither could Howard, Duncan Smith or Hague. The Labour party is at a watershed just as the Tories were in the 90's but they will come back when people realise what a bunch of self centered greedy sh1ts are running the country.
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Grim74
November 18, 2015, 7:58am
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Quoted from ginnywings


Ah yes, much better to be totally divisive and shaft your own electorate all in the name of greed and profit. I don't give a fook about the Falklands and Bin Laden but i do about poverty and lack of opportunity for the majority of our citizens. Every time i see Cameron and Osbourne, i see everything i hate about the state of the country. No, he'll probably never win an election but neither could Howard, Duncan Smith or Hague. The Labour party is at a watershed just as the Tories were in the 90's but they will come back when people realise what a bunch of self centered greedy sh1ts are running the country.


Disgraceful comments from a sounds like a deluded bitter socialist.


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ginnywings
November 18, 2015, 9:02am

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Quoted from Grim74


Disgraceful comments from a sounds like a deluded bitter socialist.


Really?  
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grimsby pete
November 18, 2015, 9:18am

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I thought Corbyn  won the leadership because of his honest answers to questions,

Plus the fact the other candidates were very poor,

BUT

Since he has been in charge  he has done Labour and himself no favours at all with his extreme views,

If Labour want to win the next general election they need to find a new leader and fast,

I have no idea who that person might be.


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Rodley Mariner
November 18, 2015, 9:23am
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I'm not a big fan though a Labour supporter but people need to stop only reading headlines. They often have a pretty tenuous link to what he has actually said. A pretty sorry reflection of our media though at times I think he's been very naive in gifting them statements so easy to spin. I'm with Ginny though in that I care far more about poverty and inequality than I do the Falklands.
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ginnywings
November 18, 2015, 12:48pm

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Quoted from Rodley Mariner
I'm not a big fan though a Laboue supporter but people need to stop only reading headlines. They often have a pretty tenuous link to what he has actually said. A pretty sorry reflection of our media though at times I think he's been very naive in gifting them stayements so easy to spin. I'm with Ginny though in that I care far more about poverty and inequality than I do the Falklands.


Very true Rodders. I knew the Tory press would crucify him but he aint half making it easy for them. Somebody needs to give him a course in spindoctery.
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forza ivano
November 18, 2015, 1:38pm

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It's increasingly looking like a complete shambles, so much so that the Tories aren't even having to attack/criticise labour and corbyn; think they are like the rest of us just gawping from the sidelines in amazement at the chaos. I feel really sorry for benn and Eagle who keep having to try and defend the indefensible. Corbyn's comments on shoot to kill are spectacularly ill judged.
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Rodley Mariner
November 18, 2015, 3:03pm
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Again Forza, I'm not sure the headlines really represented what he said. He pretty much said he had some concerns about the police having shoot to kill powers. Charles de Menezes' family probably do as well. I just wonder how he thought the press would report it or how he thought it was a good time to say it. There's some pretty awful things about our media but that's the way it is and he needs to manage it a lot better.
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forza ivano
November 18, 2015, 4:51pm

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Matthew Norman in the indie sums it up better than i can

I’m not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general,” he told a BBC interviewer. “I think that is quite dangerous… You have to have security that prevents people firing off weapons where they can… But the idea you end up with a war on the streets is not a good thing. Surely you have to work to try and prevent these things happening. That’s got to be the priority.”

The problem with this lies not in what he said, but in what he didn’t say first. No one sane thinks shooting battles desirable, or wouldn’t be thrilled if they could be prevented. Of course the long-term priority must be to tackle the root causes of this psychosis. All of that would have been fine had he begun his reply by addressing the short-term priority: what to do when people with Kalashnikovs in their hands and bombs around their waists are rampaging through a British city.......
.....You can only talk about the need to avoid gun wars on the streets after stating definitively that preserving innocent lives, by shooting to kill if necessary, is paramount. You cannot speak about preferring the likes of Jihadi John to be tried in court without prefacing that with a plain declaration that – whatever one’s qualms about the execution of a British national – the world is a better place without him.

as i said the comments are spectacularly ill judged
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FishOutOfWater
November 18, 2015, 5:06pm
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Quoted from Rodley Mariner
Again Forza, I'm not sure the headlines really represented what he said. He pretty much said he had some concerns about the police having shoot to kill powers. Charles de Menezes' family probably do as well. I just wonder how he thought the press would report it or how he thought it was a good time to say it. There's some pretty awful things about our media but that's the way it is and he needs to manage it a lot better.


Almost a non-starter for him though...his position on most issues just doesn't fit the bill with what the mainstream media want to portray as they have their own agenda(s)

To me Corbyn just comes across as pretty much your anti-establishment anti-hero so there's little or no chance of him being given any serious consideration or commentary in the media, where the editors have totally a different ideology and are intent on demonising him, protecting the interests of their owners at all costs
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Rodley Mariner
November 18, 2015, 6:16pm
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The fact that the passage quoted has lots of ............ tells a story for me. Selected quotes and lack of context. It seemed to be presented by a lot of the media as a statement but clearly it was a response to a question. He released a statement yesterday clearly starting he'd support shoot to kill in a situation like Paris on Friday but it's had little coverage and what it has had was sold as a 'backtrack' which it wasn't.

I don't really see much controversial about saying it'd be better if the police didn't have to shoot people in the street or that we need to be wary of extending police powers and infringing civil liberties. As I mentioned earlier, the de Menezes case clearly illustrates the dangers though at times it will sadly need to be used. My only problem with it is how easily he set it up for the media to go to town on it, especially after the 'It would have been better if Jihadi John had been arrested' episode. Again, I don't disagree with the sentiment though how he could have been arrested God only knows. It was just such an easy set-up for the 'Loony Jezza mourns death of Isis killer' headlines which followed.
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grimsby pete
November 18, 2015, 9:35pm

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I could be wrong but I think the main leaders of IS should be caught alive,

Put in the stocks and we could throw rotten  fruit at them,

Then put on trial and sentenced to live imprisonment .


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arryarryarry
November 20, 2015, 1:44pm
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Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Almost a non-starter for him though...his position on most issues just doesn't fit the bill with what the mainstream media want to portray as they have their own agenda(s)

To me Corbyn just comes across as pretty much your anti-establishment anti-hero so there's little or no chance of him being given any serious consideration or commentary in the media, where the editors have totally a different ideology and are intent on demonising him, protecting the interests of their owners at all costs


I don't think there is much chance of consideration by the electorate either.
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FishOutOfWater
November 20, 2015, 1:51pm
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Quoted from arryarryarry


I don't think there is much chance of consideration by the electorate either.


Don't think you can really dispute that...

Should be interesting as to just who will be leading the mainstream parties  come the next election in 2020

Corbyn might just hang in there but wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some kind of coup at some future date  if the thoughts are he really is unelectable as PM

And of course Cameron won't be around for the Conmen....if as it seems, Corbyn holds little appeal to the electorate, I can only imagine how off-putting the public should find the right wing Gideon / Boris alternative  
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grimsby pete
November 27, 2015, 7:05pm

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Quoted from grimsby pete
I could be wrong but I think the main leaders of IS should be caught alive,

Put in the stocks and we could throw rotten  fruit at them,

Then put on trial and sentenced to live imprisonment .


I do not remember posting that,

I must have been drunk and I do not agree with it.


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codcheeky
December 4, 2015, 1:39am
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BBC seemed quite disapointed that Labour increased its share of the vote in the Oldham by election. and hardly seem to want to discuss the 10% drop in tory vote , it doesn`t fit with their campaign against Corbyn
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Grim74
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Great news the OldhamWest result consolidates Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of Labour for years to come great effort from the sharia community.


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Maringer
December 4, 2015, 8:21am
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Sharia community? FFS.

Brilliant sour grapes from Farage.
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Manchester Mariner
December 4, 2015, 8:46am

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Just been reading Fararge's hugely predictable comments. He becomes more and more of a cliche as time goes on.


"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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barralad
December 4, 2015, 9:05am
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Quoted from Maringer
Sharia community? FFS.

Brilliant sour grapes from Farage.


LOL Sounds as though the voters of Oldham are sick of the negativity of UKIPs campaigning. If they cannot push Labour after the events of the last couple of weeks then they will never do it....
My cousin lives in the constituency and the only contact she had with UKIP was via leaflets and billboards around the place. Not one person knocked on her door trying to put UKIPs case


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Grim74
December 4, 2015, 9:33am
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With a 25% Muslim electorate in one hand and endless postal votes in the other Labour can count on emphatic victory. Rejoice comrades!

Reports of postal boxes coming out 99% labour unbelievable!!


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Maringer
December 4, 2015, 11:31am
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Quoted from Grim74
Reports of postal boxes coming out 99% labour unbelievable!!


So you think more people in these Muslim-dominated low-income areas should be voting for the Tories or UKIP? If anything, they are more on the ball than low-income workers who somewhat incredibly voted for the Tories in the General Election earlier this year and are paying the price already. If you're a lower income worker of foreign extraction/descent, you'd have to be pretty much insane to vote for UKIP or the Tories, I'd have thought.

That said, I don't doubt that the situation will be that the head of the household in many of these areas decides who gets the votes of all his family members which isn't exactly the most democratic of situations. Not sure the way to fix this, really. I suppose a government-funded push to promote voting in person might help a little but there should be some attempts to get people to cast their own votes.

No need to worry, though - once the boundary changes go through, I don't doubt that these areas will be sidelined so that their votes become worth very little on a national scale, regardless of which way they are cast.
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LH
December 4, 2015, 11:41am

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Imagine that: people voting for who they think represents them best. What a novel idea.
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FishOutOfWater
December 4, 2015, 1:18pm
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Quoted from Manchester Mariner
Just been reading Fararge's hugely predictable comments. He becomes more and more of a cliche as time goes on.


Bet UKIP are feeling pretty much the same today as they did when they failed to take Great Grimsby in the General Election.... Gutted  
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December 4, 2015, 1:31pm
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I think there are a lot of people on both sides trying to extrapolate things from one result.  I think that the local Labour candidate had done excellent work in the area as a councillor (can we have some in Grimsby please?) and was never going to be in danger of defeat.  Some of UKIP's bile has been pretty unedifying to say the least.

I don't think we'll know what effect JC has had on the wider electorate until May at least and who knows what the world will look like then.
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Grim74
January 7, 2016, 3:16pm
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After 31 hours he finally rearranged the deck chairs on the titanic of the Labour Party 😄


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Maringer
January 7, 2016, 4:43pm
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Pfft. Minor reshuffle, nothing more. Storm in a teacup whipped up by the media who have decided to let the Tories get away without any blame for cutting £1 billion on flood expenditure since they came into office:

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/uk-flood-prevention-missing-billion.html

Yep, that's a cumulative cut of £1 billion, yet we've not heard a peep about it in the media. It's almost as if they were following some sort of an agenda!

Can't say I'm overly impressed by Thornberry, but understandable that Corbyn needs a unilateralist as defence secretary. On the other hand, if a few of the Blairite MPs put as much effort into attacking the incompetence of the Tory government as they did in attempting to knife their own leadership in the back, then perhaps they wouldn't need to be booted out of the shadow cabinet.

Oh, as expected, I see Osborne is searching around for somebody else to blame for his ongoing complete and utter failure to do anything like a competent job. Apparently, it was them Chinese whatdunnit this time!
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January 7, 2016, 7:51pm

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Anything Labour does is highly scrutinised and derided. Stops people looking at the true issues. My partner has just learned that her NI is going up by £24 per month or she won't get a full state pension. That's when she's finally allowed to retire sometime in her late 90's the way things are going.
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Maringer
January 8, 2016, 12:32pm
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Even worse than that, the current BBC are actively working to create discord within the opposition. Here's the webcache of a rather smug blog describing how Kuenssberg and the Daily Politics editors worked to create a news story by arranging the resignation of a member of the shadow cabinet live on air:

http://webcache.googleusercont.....mp;ct=clnk&gl=uk

Note, the original blog from yesterday has already been deleted from the BBC web site for some inexplicable reason - you wouldn't know it was ever posted, or that such plotting had occurred. Why has this blog been deleted?

Does anybody think it right that the national broadcaster is actively interfering in the politics of Her Majesty's opposition? It really beggar's belief.

Left-wing bias, my bottom.
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Grim74
January 19, 2016, 8:53am
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Quoted from Maringer
Pfft. Minor reshuffle, nothing more. Storm in a teacup whipped up by the media who have decided to let the Tories get away without any blame for cutting £1 billion on flood expenditure since they came into office:

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/uk-flood-prevention-missing-billion.html!


To be fair to the Torys we had the wettest December on record not to mention the fact they are spending more on flood defences than any other government, but the likes of the Guardian and left wing labour supporting professors with debatable figures will jump on any snippets of bad news nothing changes!

The only surprise was why wasn't the Labour Party joining in? The likes of Milliband, Blair and Kinnock would of been all over them like a rash, anyway must say how much I'm enjoying all the infighting (great entertainment by the way) this is the hypocrite who freely rebelled against his party 100s of times and then went on to sack his own cabinet members for disagreeing with him hilarious!

On the trident row he's now advocating having deterrent that has no capacity to deter!!! Maybe working class hating Emily helped him cook this one up   "it's like having an army with broken rifles and no ammunition" his own shadow minister John Woodcock commented...carefull John you will get sacked with remarks like that.

I don't know how much longer this clown can remain leader but the longer the better I say, I just find it difficult to understand how anyone like the people on here can support him... The mind boggles!


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ginnywings
January 19, 2016, 9:06am

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Quoted from Grim74


To be fair to the Torys we had the wettest December on record not to mention the fact they are spending more on flood defences than any other government, but the likes of the Guardian and left wing labour supporting professors with debatable figures will jump on any snippets of bad news nothing changes!

The only surprise was why wasn't the Labour Party joining in? The likes of Blair and Kinnock would of been all over them like a rash, anyway must say how much I'm enjoying all the infighting (great entertainment by the way) this is the hypocrite who freely rebelled against his party 100s of times and then went on to sack his own cabinet members for disagreeing with him hilarious!

On the trident row he's now advocating having deterrent that has no capacity to deter!!! Maybe working class hating Emily helped him cook this one up   "it's like having an army with broken rifles and no ammunition" his own shadow minister John Woodcock commented...carefull John you will get sacked with remarks like that.

I don't know how much longer this clown can remain leader but the longer the better I say, I just find it difficult to understand how anyone like the people on here can support him... The mind boggles!


It's called democracy. The Tories ought to try it.
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arryarryarry
January 19, 2016, 9:15am
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Quoted from Maringer
Even worse than that, the current BBC are actively working to create discord within the opposition. Here's the webcache of a rather smug blog describing how Kuenssberg and the Daily Politics editors worked to create a news story by arranging the resignation of a member of the shadow cabinet live on air:

http://webcache.googleusercont.....mp;ct=clnk&gl=uk

Note, the original blog from yesterday has already been deleted from the BBC web site for some inexplicable reason - you wouldn't know it was ever posted, or that such plotting had occurred. Why has this blog been deleted?

Does anybody think it right that the national broadcaster is actively interfering in the politics of Her Majesty's opposition? It really beggar's belief.

Left-wing bias, my bottom.


Of course there is a left wing bias from the BBC, there always has been. Take yesterday for example, their reporting of the Donald Trump discussion in front of MPs because there was a petition against letting him into the UK.

There was absolutely no mention that there was another petition of nearly equal size demanding that he should be allowed to enter the UK.
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Grim74
January 19, 2016, 9:27am
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Quoted from arryarryarry


Of course there is a left wing bias from the BBC, there always has been. Take yesterday for example, their reporting of the Donald Trump discussion in front of MPs because there was a petition against letting him into the UK.

There was absolutely no mention that there was another petition of nearly equal size demanding that he should be allowed to enter the UK.


No mention either regarding the 450,000 online petitions against all immigration and close all borders until Isis is defeated!
Anybody who believes that the BBC is anything other than left wing is severely deluded.


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January 19, 2016, 10:08am
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Quoted from ginnywings


It's called democracy. The Tories ought to try it.


Labour style democracy.
http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/01/.....asian-rally-5536791/


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January 19, 2016, 11:50am

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Quoted from Grim74


No mention either regarding the 450,000 online petitions against all immigration and close all borders until Isis is defeated!
Anybody who believes that the BBC is anything other than left wing is severely deluded.


450,000. That's the entire population of the UK isn't it?
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Maringer
January 19, 2016, 12:52pm
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Quoted from arryarryarry


Of course there is a left wing bias from the BBC, there always has been.


Which is why the head of BBC News, James Harding, is a former editor of The Times (where he was an ardent critic of the BBC), former BBC Political Correspondent Nick Robinson (who now presents Today) was former head of the Conservative Association at University and later President of the Conservative Party Youth Group and Andrew Neil, who presents the Daily Politics is a former Conservative Party employee as well as former editor of the Sunday Times. Breathtaking left-wing bias there, I'm sure you'll agree.  

Kuenssberg is boldly carrying on Robinson's traditions since she took over his job by the looks of things as well, arranging resignations of Shadow Cabinet members on air, shortly before PMQs. Note the timing of this resignation allowed Cameron to attack Corbyn in PMQs and helped to shift attention away from more of their failures in government which are manifold. I'm still amazed they can get away with such hopeless performance with such little comeback.

The rank and file at the BBC may well be generally liberal in their outlook, but the people steering the news agenda certainly aren't.

Don't get me wrong, the quality of most of the current characters in the Labour Party is less than impressive following the 'New Labour' era which hollowed out most of the party (many of the Shadow Ministers in particular are bloody hopeless!), but the appallingly incompetent government seems to get away with their failings with little criticism in comparison to the round the clock attacks on Corbyn & Co. Remember back to when Cameron took over as leader of the Conservative Party? They literally didn't have any policies or any kind of a manifesto for well over a year and this passed without any comment! On the other hand, since Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party, he's been endlessly attacked for not having a bullet-proof manifesto in place within a few months.

That said, the idea of building Trident submarines without having warheads to put into them was a bloody ridiculous idea to float, so to speak. Wasting that much money on Trident is bloody stupid in itself without having a useful product at the end of it.
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Maringer
January 19, 2016, 12:58pm
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Quoted from Grim74


No mention either regarding the 450,000 online petitions against all immigration and close all borders until Isis is defeated!



Wow, certainly a lot of flipping stupid people around in this country, aren't there? Can't say I'd heard of this petition before now, but it does make me despair about the general level of intelligence in the UK.
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Town Monkey
January 19, 2016, 1:39pm
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"Wow, certainly a lot of flipping stupid people around in this country, aren't there? Can't say I'd heard of this petition before now, but it does make me despair about the general level of intelligence in the UK."

That is pretty terrifying although not hugely surprising.  I wonder how many of them vote UKIP?

On Trident, I can see the arguments for both sides but my personal preference would be to retain it this time.  We don't know where the world will be in 20 years time so I think unilaterally disarming now would be a mistake.  I would be more inclined to try and reduce our conventional forces a little bit so concentrate on defence rather than attack.
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Grim74
January 19, 2016, 2:04pm
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Quoted from ginnywings


450,000. That's the entire population of the UK isn't it?


Erm..... I think you have missed the point!  BBC are willing to publicise similar petition numbers only if it's in line with there liberal lefty biased agenda!


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Grim74
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Quoted from Maringer


Which is why the head of BBC News, James Harding, is a former editor of The Times (where he was an ardent critic of the BBC), former BBC Political Correspondent Nick Robinson (who now presents Today) was former head of the Conservative Association at University and later President of the Conservative Party Youth Group and Andrew Neil, who presents the Daily Politics is a former Conservative Party employee as well as former editor of the Sunday Times. Breathtaking left-wing bias there, I'm sure you'll agree.  

Kuenssberg is boldly carrying on Robinson's traditions since she took over his job by the looks of things as well, arranging resignations of Shadow Cabinet members on air, shortly before PMQs. Note the timing of this resignation allowed Cameron to attack Corbyn in PMQs and helped to shift attention away from more of their failures in government which are manifold. I'm still amazed they can get away with such hopeless performance with such little comeback.

The rank and file at the BBC may well be generally liberal in their outlook, but the people steering the news agenda certainly aren't.

Don't get me wrong, the quality of most of the current characters in the Labour Party is less than impressive following the 'New Labour' era which hollowed out most of the party (many of the Shadow Ministers in particular are bloody hopeless!), but the appallingly incompetent government seems to get away with their failings with little criticism in comparison to the round the clock attacks on Corbyn & Co. Remember back to when Cameron took over as leader of the Conservative Party? They literally didn't have any policies or any kind of a manifesto for well over a year and this passed without any comment! On the other hand, since Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party, he's been endlessly attacked for not having a bullet-proof manifesto in place within a few months.

That said, the idea of building Trident submarines without having warheads to put into them was a bloody ridiculous idea to float, so to speak. Wasting that much money on Trident is bloody stupid in itself without having a useful product at the end of it.


Some names you conveniently missed-

James Mark Dakin Purnell is the Director of Strategy and Digital at the BBC being appointed to the post in February 2013. He was a British Labour Party politician, as the Member of Parliament for Stalybridge and Hyde (MP) from 2001 to 2010 general elections and served as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport from 2007 to 2009.

Danny Cohen former Director of BBC Television until 2015,  One of the first things he said when he took charge of BBC1 was that its comedy was too middle class. Recently he banned all-male panels on comedy panel shows. He agrees with “comedian” Lenny Henry that there should be more “diversity” on television. In February 2014 he claimed there were too many white people in the content and its shows would include more blacks and homosexuals “to reflect modern Britain”.

Ian Katz is the editor of the Newsnight current affairs programme on BBC Two. Earlier Katz followed a career in print journalism, and was deputy editor of The Guardian until 2013.

Allegra Stratton former political editor of BBC Two’s Newsnight programme until 2015.
Previously she was political correspondent at The Guardian, presenting the newspaper’s “Politics Weekly” podcast with Tom Clark.

Kirsty Wark the Newsnight journalist is very close to Labour. Donald Dewar, Scottish Labour politician and former First Minister of Scotland, a personal friend. In January 2005, she invited Labour MSP Jack McConnell, then Scotland’s First Minister, and his family to stay at her Majorcan holiday home over the New Year period.

Sandra Birgitte “Sandi” Toksvig  is a Danish-British writer, presenter and “comedian”. She said on BBC Radio 4’s The News Quiz that the Conservative Party had “put the ‘N’ into cuts” to child benefit.  In April 2015, Toksvig chaired the first, informal, conference of the new Women’s Equality Party.

Jeremy James Hardy is a “comedian” who the BBC use a lot. Well known left winger who wrote a regular column for The Guardian until 2001. Bashes the bankers (falsely) at every opportunity.

Susan Grace Calman  is a Scottish “comedian” and panellist on BBC Radio 4 topical shows including The News Quiz and I Guess That’s Why They Call It The News. One she tweeted: “Premier travel inn in Birmingham is full of tories. I’m hiding in my room. Feel like Anne Frank.”

Owain Elis James is a Welsh “comedian” who appears in a whole range of BBC output. Tweeted: “We have given that girl private Cameron a mandate to be even more of a psycho , for the next five years. Oh Christ.”

Norman Smith became the Chief Political Correspondent of BBC News in 2011, and its Assistant Political Editor in 2014. Said on air in December: “When you sit down and read the OBR report it reads like a book of doom. It is utterly terrifying.” public spending would “have to be hacked back to the levels of the 1930s in terms of as a proportion of GDP and that is an extraordinary concept” and “You’re back to the land of The Road to Wigan Pier”.

Andrew William Stevenson Marr  Host of The Andrew Marr Show. Was a member of the Socialist Campaign for a Labour Victory (an off-shoot of the International-Communist League, now known as the Alliance for Workers’ Liberty). At Cambridge he acquired the nickname ‘Red Andy’.  Writing in The Guardian, he said “It may be my Presbyterian background, but I firmly believe that repression can be a great, civilising instrument for good”.

Mark Steel, socialist columnist, author and “comedian”. Was a long-standing member of the Socialist Workers Party before he resigned in 2007, he has made many appearances on BBC radio and television shows . He is perhaps best known for presenting The Mark Steel Lectures, The Mark Steel Revolution, The Mark Steel Solution, and Mark Steel’s in Town. In February 2013, Steel was among those who gave their support to the People’s Assembly in a letter published by The Guardian newspaper.

Russell Brand. Resigned from the BBC in 2008 following prank calls he made to actor Andrew Sachs on The Russell Brand Show. But still appears on the BBC a lot where he is given free reign to voice his extreme left wing views. In the run up to the election he dropped his anti-voting position and “declared the importance of voting”, backing Labour and telling his fans that “You gotta vote Labour”.

Stephen John “Steve” Coogan. “Comedian” who appears on many BBC programmes. Supports the Labour Party and believes that Conservatives think “people are plebs” and that “they like to pat people on the head”. A noted car enthusiast, he has had a succession of Ferraris. Gave evidence to the Leveson Inquiry on phone hacking, favouring regulation of the press.

Robert Webb. “Comedian” of Mitchell and Webb fame. Webb has stated that he is a supporter of the Labour Party, and rejoined it in 2013.

Josephine Grace “Jo” Brand. BBC stalwart; “comedian”, writer and actress.  Appeared on The Brain Drain, Getting On and various BBC appearances including as a regular guest on QI and Have I Got News for You. Backed Labour in a party election broadcast.

Obviously this is just a partial list and doesn’t include the thousands of producers, directors, editors and writers who make the BBC a hive of socialism. You don’t have to take my word for this, look at these quotes:
Peter Sissons, former BBC News and Current Affairs presenter: “By far the most popular and widely read newspapers at the BBC are The Guardian and The Independent. ­Producers refer to them routinely for the line to take on ­running stories, and for inspiration on which items to cover. In the later stages of my career, I lost count of the number of times I asked a producer for a brief on a story, only to be handed a copy of The Guardian and told ‘it’s all in there’.”

Mark Thomspon, former BBC Director General: “In the BBC I joined 30 years ago [as a production trainee, in 1979], there was, in much of current affairs, in terms of people’s personal politics, which were quite vocal, a massive bias to the left. The organisation did struggle then with impartiality. And journalistically, staff were quite mystified by the early years of Thatcher. Now it is a completely different generation. There is much less overt tribalism among the young journalists who work for the BBC. It is like the New Statesman, which used to be various shades of soft and hard left and is now more technocratic. We’re like that, too.”

Sir Antony Jay, former BBC producer and creator of Yes, (Prime) Minister: “I absorbed and expressed all the accepted BBC attitudes: hostility to, or at least suspicion of, America, monarchy, government, capitalism, empire, banking and the defence establishment, and in favour of the Health Service, state welfare, the social sciences, the environment and state education. But perhaps our most powerful antagonism was directed at advertising. This is not surprising; commercial television was the biggest threat the BBC had ever had to face.”
So there you have it. The BBC is a huge socialist propaganda outfit that harms Great Britain. It needs breaking up and selling off, be fools not to.

Finally leftism isn’t the only BBC bias. They are pro Israel and anti Palestine. They are pro MMGW warmists and stifle critical climate debate. They are very pro EU and vehemently against Brexit. They are greatly in favour of Scotland remaining in the Union. All this is wrong. The BBC are not a political party and should not behave like one.

And to finish off -
Roger Mosey, former head of BBC TV news, has written a book giving chapter and verse on the Corporation’s bias.



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ginnywings
January 19, 2016, 3:40pm

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I'm sure i could search Google and find plenty of articles that will support your left leaning bias theory of the BBC. I could equally find lots of articles that support the opposite view and probably some that there is no bias at all to either party. At the end of the day, it all comes down to your political persuasion and while things like this are being debated, the Tories can happily carry on bottom raping the country without scrutiny. That's just how they like it. If you believe the Tories are great, then fine, it's a democracy and you can believe what you want. I don't think your long rambling post on lefty comedians is going to sway anybody one way or the other.
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barralad
January 19, 2016, 4:23pm
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Quoted from arryarryarry


Of course there is a left wing bias from the BBC, there always has been. Take yesterday for example, their reporting of the Donald Trump discussion in front of MPs because there was a petition against letting him into the UK.

There was absolutely no mention that there was another petition of nearly equal size demanding that he should be allowed to enter the UK.


Well I don't know what news you were watching but it was mentioned in the next breath on the 6p.m. and 10 p.m


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FishOutOfWater
January 19, 2016, 4:54pm
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Quoted from Grim74


The Metro free "newspaper" is just a watered down version of the Daily Mail where their right wing message is presented to half asleep commuters on the basis they won't notice what they are up to.....

I'd say with anything they publish ( similar to some people's breakfast porridge) you should take at least one pinch of salt!  
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January 19, 2016, 6:05pm
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I do generally try and let comedians sway my political opinion. I particularly like the many appearances they make on Question Time and the News.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Grim74
January 20, 2016, 1:23am
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Quoted from FishOutOfWater


The Metro free "newspaper" is just a watered down version of the Daily Mail where their right wing message is presented to half asleep commuters on the basis they won't notice what they are up to.....

I'd say with anything they publish ( similar to some people's breakfast porridge) you should take at least one pinch of salt!  


Are you saying the picture was a fake   don't be a fool man,

Here are some more links to the same disgraceful pictures..
http://www.newenglishreview.or.....m-West-by-election--

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....-Harriet-Harman.html

The best picture was the one with the labour candidate for Oldham Jim McMahon (since been arased from search engines, although can still be found on Twitter) he's looking awkwardly wedged in with an all male Muslim audience, showing us that when it comes to the Muslim vote equality goes to hell.


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Grim74
January 20, 2016, 8:56am
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Quoted from ginnywings
I'm sure i could search Google and find plenty of articles that will support your left leaning bias theory of the BBC. I could equally find lots of articles that support the opposite view and probably some that there is no bias at all to either party.


No excrement Sherlock your a bright one Didn't my response to Maringers conservative BBC theory kind of make your point pretty obvious!
You only have to watch the BBC to confirm it's lefty bias only last Sunday morning on the big question with Nicky Campbell, an obvious audience stuffed full of leftys and most of them where junior doctors, and have a guess what the main debate was about???
The very few on the show in favour of the cuts where shouted down, reminds me of the time when Nigel Farage was stitched up by the BBC during a questions and answers election debate, when the large majority of the audience where yogurt knitters. ( BBC have admitted this you can google that one) and can you give me one name of a right wing comedian that frequents the BBC....just one?

Quoted Text
If you believe the Tories are great, then fine.


I think you get confused just because I'm not your typical brainwashed grimbarian that will only vote labour regardless ( the type Austin Mitchell remarked on) because I have never said that theTories are great and I'm not a Tory supporter, but when you compare the two party's together regarding who would be best to run the country its like compareing football managers say Mike Newel (labour) total basket case man that would ruin any club, and Sam Allidice (conservative) steady the ship man but no real progress, and that's as simple logic I can put to you hope you understand.

During the Blair and Brown years when they were busy trashing the economy, the NHS, and education sending us to illegal wars,increasing the public sector, introducing  zero hours contracts for the private sector,, political flipping correctness, allowing criminals to abuse the human rights act, opening the gates to mass immigration without even asking the British public, and giving our rights away to Brussels, etc, etc,
Did you just run around with your hands over your ears shouting nah nah nah nah  


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Maringer
January 20, 2016, 12:21pm
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Quoted from Grim74

During the Blair and Brown years when they were busy trashing the economy, the NHS, and education sending us to illegal wars,increasing the public sector, introducing  zero hours contracts for the private sector,, political flipping correctness, allowing criminals to abuse the human rights act, opening the gates to mass immigration without even asking the British public, and giving our rights away to Brussels, etc, etc,
Did you just run around with your hands over your ears shouting nah nah nah nah  


It appears that you have either failed to comprehend or have simply ignored my many, many posts over the past year which deconstructed the myth of Tory competence with the economy. It takes a very special kind of a mind to think that the Blair/Brown governments "trashed the economy", especially in comparison to the ongoing clusterfuck we're seeing from Osborne.

The 'New Labour' government was fundamentally only marginally to the left of Thatcher in the way the economy was run, though they weren't quite as eager to privatise anything which wasn't nailed down and they did make some much-needed investment in public infrastructure (schools, the NHS and the like) after two decades of neglect from the Tories. Admittedly some of this investment was based on the foolish Tory policy of PFI (which, for all the criticism made before 2010 has been taken up once again with gusto by Osborne since he became Chancellor).

Faced with these facts (and they were facts), it really does beggar belief that anybody still thinks the recession in 2008 was anything to do with the 'New Labour' government at all rather than a crash of the world banking system. Quite how anybody can defend Osborne's record also beggars belief. He has missed every single one of his own economic targets by an enormous amount, has borrowed vast amounts of money whilst overseeing a decline in living standards, the weakest 'recovery' from a recession since the South Sea Bubble and his own plans to balance the books (which make no sense if you have any understanding of sectoral balances) are predicated on private debt reaching record levels by the end of this parliament! He's also engaged in the usual Tory race to the bottom for Corporate tax levels, has little interest in chasing tax evaders and has defunded and massively cut back HMRC to show this and is still engaged in further inflating the already overblown property market. All in all, he's set on taking us back to the 1920s. A breathtakingly incompetent Chancellor who makes Brown look like a genius in comparison though he was far from that in reality.

Regarding your rather lengthy earlier post about left-wing comedians and other minor characters in the BBC (strange how there are so few funny right-wing comedians, isn't it? Or should I say not funny?), you're rather missing the point. Classic whataboutery, though. The clear bias I am talking about is in the NEWS department - you know, where most people get their news from. All of the major figures in the BBC News department including the head honchos have a clear and obvious right-wing bias. Heck, many of them have worked for Murdoch at one time or another!

Anyway, no time for any further rebuttals to your usual nonsense. Unfortunately, I don't have the time I once did so rarely get chance to spend time posting on the Fishy or elsewhere.
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ginnywings
January 20, 2016, 12:40pm

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You seem to be a very angry sort Grim and your constant deriding of people that vote Labour is laughable. As one of the brainwashed Grimsby Socialists, i'm possibly far too thick to get your subtle take on things in the political spectrum, so i'll leave you to your delusions and pointless ramblings.

I'd also like to ask why it bothers you so much, as according to you, Labour are un-electable, so you have no need to worry. The country will just go from strength to strength now the Tories have a 4 year mandate to work with. Chill and enjoy the massive upturn the country is about to enjoy.

I'll leave you with a parting gift to peruse. It's from your favourite Tory rag too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci.....d-people-racist.html
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January 20, 2016, 9:22pm

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Star Post Maringer. Ginny you too, I'm right next to you both on the barricades. I try and keep my politics to myself on the Fishy, but sometimes you just have to.


Batch, Crombie, Moore K, Wiggington, Cumming, Waters, Bonnyman, Ford, Emson, Drinkell, Whymark. Love you all, You are the reason I'm on here. You've had help from Todd, Handyside, Futcher P, Groves, Mendonca, Macca etc etc etc. Up The Mariners!!!!!!!!!
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Grim74
January 20, 2016, 10:21pm
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Quoted from Maringer


It appears that you have either failed to comprehend or have simply ignored my many, many posts over the past year which deconstructed the myth of Tory competence with the economy. It takes a very special kind of a mind to think that the Blair/Brown governments "trashed the economy", especially in comparison to the ongoing clusterfuck we're seeing from Osborne.


Yes and I've stated my case to you many a time as to why they hold some responsibility I can well remember every year Brown ending his Budget Statement with the words ‘NO MORE BOOM AND BUST’. What a joke, what a disaster and so many especially on here have such short memories.

Quoted Text
Faced with these facts (and they were facts), it really does beggar belief that anybody still thinks the recession in 2008 was anything to do with the 'New Labour' government at all rather than a crash of the world banking system. Quite how anybody can defend Osborne's record also beggars belief. He has missed every single one of his own economic targets by an enormous amount, has borrowed vast amounts of money whilst overseeing a decline in living standards, the weakest 'recovery' from a recession since the South Sea Bubble and his own plans to balance the books (which make no sense if you have any understanding of sectoral balances) are predicated on private debt reaching record levels by the end of this parliament! He's also engaged in the usual Tory race to the bottom for Corporate tax levels, has little interest in chasing tax evaders and has defunded and massively cut back HMRC to show this and is still engaged in further inflating the already overblown property market. All in all, he's set on taking us back to the 1920s. A breathtakingly incompetent Chancellor who makes Brown look like a genius in comparison though he was far from that in reality.


You not seen today's good news on the jobs front then? More people in work than ever before with growing wages ( an amazining achievement considering net migration is about 350,000 a year thanks to labour)  the number of unemployed at its lowest level since 2008, it chuckles me how you leave the good stuff out,
anyway I've told you before give them their full term and then see where we are in 5 years before we start comparisons, although for all their faults I just can't envisage this government doing an overall worse job then Labour, they would have to leave the country more broke than broke..... Labour do not, never have and never will understand business or economics, if they did they wouldn’t be socialists.


Quoted Text
Regarding your rather lengthy earlier post about left-wing comedians and other minor characters in the BBC (strange how there are so few funny right-wing comedians, isn't it? Or should I say not funny?),


So few? There isn't any because the Lilly livered BBC scared stiff of political incorrectness!  Even Dame Edna gets censored So we have to put up with boring lefties telling the same boing jokes about the banks and calling UKIP racists ... yawn.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Grim74
January 20, 2016, 10:37pm
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Quoted from ginnywings
You seem to be a very angry sort Grim and your constant deriding of people that vote Labour is laughable. As one of the brainwashed Grimsby Socialists, i'm possibly far too thick to get your subtle take on things in the political spectrum, so i'll leave you to your delusions and pointless ramblings.

I'd also like to ask why it bothers you so much, as according to you, Labour are un-electable, so you have no need to worry. The country will just go from strength to strength now the Tories have a 4 year mandate to work with. Chill and enjoy the massive upturn the country is about to enjoy.

I'll leave you with a parting gift to peruse. It's from your favourite Tory rag too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci.....d-people-racist.html


intercourse me you actually admit to being a socialist  
I'm really not angry but after a bad day at work you just can't beat a ginnywings post for some comical relief, lefties! They do my head in and I think it's fair to say that they need a good slap most of the time but I'd make an exception for ginny bless and give you a cuddle. Goodnight.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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ginnywings
January 21, 2016, 2:17am

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Quoted from Grim74


intercourse me you actually admit to being a socialist  
I'm really not angry but after a bad day at work you just can't beat a ginnywings post for some comical relief, lefties! They do my head in and I think it's fair to say that they need a good slap most of the time but I'd make an exception for ginny bless and give you a cuddle. Goodnight.



I'd much prefer the slap actually; would probably reciprocate though. Condescension is such an ugly trait in a person.
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Maringer
January 21, 2016, 9:41am
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Quoted from Grim74


Yes and I've stated my case to you many a time as to why they hold some responsibility I can well remember every year Brown ending his Budget Statement with the words ‘NO MORE BOOM AND BUST’. What a joke, what a disaster and so many especially on here have such short memories.


Whataboutery. Again. Brown certainly showed unfounded hubris in thinking that it would be possible to control the business cycle through fiscal policy, but the crash in 2008 came from a bursting bubble in shadow banking that nobody really had recognised existed. After all, your chum Osborne was repeatedly calling for further deregulation of banks in 2006. Need I mention (yet again) about the Tories' pledge to match spending by the Labour government? Not once did they warn of any overspending before the financial collapse, because there wasn't any, yet this has become their dishonest narrative since 2010. Amazing how short many people's memories are and they buy into the Tory dishonesty. Aided and abetted by the media, of course, as well as ineptitude from the Miliband regime. Still can't believe that bunch never called out the repeated Tory lies about the economy from 2010 onwards. Absolutely mind-boggling.

Quoted Text
You not seen today's good news on the jobs front then? More people in work than ever before with growing wages ( an amazining achievement considering net migration is about 350,000 a year thanks to labour)  the number of unemployed at its lowest level since 2008, it chuckles me how you leave the good stuff out,
anyway I've told you before give them their full term and then see where we are in 5 years before we start comparisons, although for all their faults I just can't envisage this government doing an overall worse job then Labour, they would have to leave the country more broke than broke..... Labour do not, never have and never will understand business or economics, if they did they wouldn’t be socialists.


The problem isn't so much the levels of unemployment as the poor quality of the jobs produced - part time with low wages, zero hours, all that sort of stuff. This study from last year shows that median wages are still below the level of 2008 which is terribly poor:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/real-wages-and-living-standards-the-latest-uk-evidence/

In addition, self-employment is now at record levels, yet median pay for the self-employed has been falling for some time. Somebody self-employed is considered as having a full-time job, but many can't earn anything like enough to reflect this. Up to 80% of the self-employed are living in poverty:

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/.....s-77-are-in-poverty/

Hardly encouraging and, though the official rate of unemployment is still falling, so is the level of wage growth which is the main reason why interest rates remain so low. It has to be said that there is also something a bit hookey about the official unemployment statistics as some studies indicate:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/20/jobs-revival-benefits-work-jobseekers-allowance

No statistics available one way or the other to fully investigate the actual unemployment level, however, so you have to assume that the government estimates are broadly correct though tax receipts certainly don't indicate any surge in actual employment. I suppose that the black economy could well be booming which would explain the lower than expected tax receipts but this is obviously bad for the UK.

Quoted Text
So few? There isn't any because the Lilly livered BBC scared stiff of political incorrectness!  Even Dame Edna gets censored So we have to put up with boring lefties telling the same boing jokes about the banks and calling UKIP racists ... yawn.


What an embarrassing load of old nonsense this last paragraph was. In fact, I'm pretty embarrassed that I've just spent a few seconds responding to it. Not that I expected you to admit that the BBC News department is clearly staffed and run by those friendly to the right-wing press and agenda.
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Town Monkey
January 21, 2016, 1:40pm
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Maringer whilst I don't always agree with your conclusions or viewpoint, you always provide an interesting and in depth analysis.  That said, I have to take you to task over using Taxresearch as a source.  Surely our old friend Mr Murphy has been so discredited that his pronouncements are more likely to harm your argument.  I won't blouse on about it but take everything he writes with a bucket of salt.  

I look forward to reading more of your otherwise excellent contributions in due course.
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Town Monkey
January 21, 2016, 1:44pm
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For a more balanced view of the tax debate, you might want to check out http://www.responsibletax.org.uk
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Maringer
January 21, 2016, 4:47pm
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Quoted from Town Monkey
Maringer whilst I don't always agree with your conclusions or viewpoint, you always provide an interesting and in depth analysis.  That said, I have to take you to task over using Taxresearch as a source.  Surely our old friend Mr Murphy has been so discredited that his pronouncements are more likely to harm your argument.  I won't blouse on about it but take everything he writes with a bucket of salt.  


Murphy is OK, if a bit argumentative. Very productive, though, and the sheer amount of output he produces is remarkable, so clearly some of it is better than others. Not sure if you're being facetious or not about the responsibletax web site because, if you look at their front page now, you'll note a contribution from a certain Richard Murphy...  

I must say, the CoVi idea sounds like a good one as too many of the think tanks are nothing but organisations designed to set the agenda as opposed to carrying out actual research. The right-wing ones are especially bad for this as so few of them disclose their funding and a remarkable number of their former employees end up as Tory SPADs. That said, it is slightly concerning that the responsibletax site is 'sponsored by KPMG' as they are just about as crooked as they come! It's all very well funding a think tank with crowdsourcing, just as long as you aren't reliant on the usual suspects for your funding!

However, regardless of your other views about Murphy, you're certainly incorrect in making an ad hominem attack on him in regards to the particular link I posted. There was no opinion in that link at all - all he did was dive into the official data about income sources of the self-employed released by HMRC and come up with obvious conclusions based on the statistics. I don't see how anyone could differ about his conclusions there. Play the ball not the man.  
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Town Monkey
January 21, 2016, 5:48pm
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Sorry, I didn't actually click the link so it was totally ad hominem.  That said, I've seen other examples of where he's taken data selectively and completely misrepresented the facts.  It's become something of an irrational thing with anything he produces now.  He just makes my blood boil.

The point of the responsibletax website is to hear from all sides of the debate which is why I find it interesting.  And like it or not, the big four need to be part of that debate.  I think it's good that NGOs and, yes, even the crusaders have an equal platform.

Anyway, back on topic, the economy is still limping along and looks increasingly fragile, neither side seems to have any decent policies to avert a further crisis if it materialises, therefore I have nothing positive to suggest just a rising sense of unease.
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Mariner Ronnie
January 22, 2016, 8:39am

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Ska face:

If we get rid of the monarchy I hope you're gonna dig deep for the excess tax of the equivalent that the monarchy brings in tourism. Because I bet she earns no where near what that brings in!

As for Corbyn, unless you're a migrant or a dole popper or a social hermit, I can't see for the life of me why you'd give that man a vote!


Today we got our team back - town fan leaving Wembley may 2016
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ginnywings
January 22, 2016, 9:01am

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Quoted from Mariner Ronnie
Ska face:

If we get rid of the monarchy I hope you're gonna dig deep for the excess tax of the equivalent that the monarchy brings in tourism. Because I bet she earns no where near what that brings in!

As for Corbyn, unless you're a migrant or a dole popper or a social hermit, I can't see for the life of me why you'd give that man a vote!


I'm none of those things but he would get my vote. Why? Because I'm a socialist and he is the leader of the Labour party but then I'm not that gullible that i believe i am voting for the man and not the party. I would be voting for an ideology, not a personality. It's a bit like GTFC really. I'm not going to change teams because i don't like the manager. I can't for the life of me think why working class people would vote Tory, but hey, it's a democracy.

Why do you right wingers feel the need to name call and pick out individual groups and what actually is a dole popper? Divide and rule, It's the Tory way.
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Maringer
January 22, 2016, 10:05am
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As has been noted before, much of the economic stuff which we've heard from Corbyn so far really wouldn't have looked too much out of place in a Conservative manifesto from the 1970s. Mostly common sense and there is a good deal of support amongst the public for most of it:

http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....-arent-a6702621.html

Of course, the problem is that the public don't get to hear any policy discussion because the media (of all stripes) is going after him with anything they can lay their hands on. If ever anybody didn't think there was an 'Establishment' running things in this country, the media coverage Corbyn has received must surely disabuse them of that idea.

The Guardian's latest is to report that his head of policy has been forced out after being sidelined (according to nameless 'senior figures' in the Labour party), despite the fact that the man himself states this isn't the reason! When you consider the Guardian is theoretically the most left-wing of the 'quality' newspapers, this is pretty disturbing.
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Grim74
January 23, 2016, 10:45pm
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Traitor Corbyn causing mayhem in France tonight after selfies with potential  labour voting, economic migrants FFS! He says conditions are worse than expected what's he expect in socialist France...... buffoon!


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
January 24, 2016, 9:49am
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Quoted from Grim74
Traitor Corbyn causing mayhem in France tonight after selfies with potential  labour voting, economic migrants FFS! He says conditions are worse than expected what's he expect in socialist France...... buffoon!


There's only one buffoon around here at the moment and I'm replying to him.

Only a fool of the highest order could see something sinister about a high-profile politician visiting a migrant camp and noting that a solution to the problem is necessary.

Here's what Corbyn is quoted as saying on the BBC site:

Quoted Text
"What I'm trying to achieve here is to understand the nature of the refugee crisis that's facing the whole of Europe,"

"Ultimately we deal with the situation by dealing with the problem at its source, which are the wars and conflicts.

"Also, there are the human needs of people. We have got people here who have been here for months, if not longer than that, with no proper education, no access to doctors, no access to dentists, limited access to food - in very cold, very wet conditions."

"We as human beings have to reach out to fellow human beings."


If you disagree with one iota of that statement, you're a sociopath. Or a gibbering idiot. Not sure which, to tell the truth.

I'm also not sure why you are getting so excitable about immigration here. After all, it didn't seem to worry you too much that your chum Hameron completely failed in his promise to cut immigration. Remember this quote? "No ifs. No buts. If we fail to cut immigration to the tens of thousands in five year's time, kick us out". Immigration, of course, doubled under the coalition government. I suppose that it's difficult to keep track of broken Tory promises or all-out lies because there have been so many of them, so perhaps you forgot about that one?
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Grim74
January 24, 2016, 11:25am
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Your not doing to bad considering you don't get time to post?

Nothing sinister about the the migrant vote, more migrants equals more voters for labour fact! It's one of the reason Blair and co open the flood gates.

Look I've nothing against the migrants personally if I was them I'd be doing the same, but they need to be told our country is full and they will not be entering, they should be taking asylum from a choice of safe countries they pass, Corbyn by going there is just going to encourage them even more he's no better than Merkel, his idea to let in the thousands at Calais is just ludicrous, if we did that there would be another 5 thousand back there by the end of the week.

It's time we had a strong deterrent at the borders with our troops for example that would have a shoot to kill policy because what happened yesterday at the ferry terminal and with migrants walking down the tunnel has now got to stop.

I don't actually know the figures from migrants outside of Europe so can't argue that but I will say Cameron is an idiot! he can't stop immigration even he wanted to, his hands are well and truly tied because Germany now dictate our immigration policy ever since the treacherous Labour Party signed our rights away, but at least with this goverment we will be given the right to democratically vote to remain in or not something your beloved party would never give us plebs.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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ginnywings
January 24, 2016, 1:36pm

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Quoted from Grim74
Your not doing to bad considering you don't get time to post?

Nothing sinister about the the migrant vote, more migrants equals more voters for labour fact! It's one of the reason Blair and co open the flood gates.

Look I've nothing against the migrants personally if I was them I'd be doing the same, but they need to be told our country is full and they will not be entering, they should be taking asylum from a choice of safe countries they pass, Corbyn by going there is just going to encourage them even more he's no better than Merkel, his idea to let in the thousands at Calais is just ludicrous, if we did that there would be another 5 thousand back there by the end of the week.

It's time we had a strong deterrent at the borders with our troops for example that would have a shoot to kill policy because what happened yesterday at the ferry terminal and with migrants walking down the tunnel has now got to stop.

I don't actually know the figures from migrants outside of Europe so can't argue that but I will say Cameron is an idiot! he can't stop immigration even he wanted to, his hands are well and truly tied because Germany now dictate our immigration policy ever since the treacherous Labour Party signed our rights away, but at least with this goverment we will be given the right to democratically vote to remain in or not something your beloved party would never give us plebs.


All your ramblings in a nutshell.  
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Grim74
January 24, 2016, 2:31pm
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Quoted from ginnywings


All your ramblings in a nutshell.  


Great post   your so comical you haven't even got an argument with me on this, face it your pin up boy is the most dangerous man in Britain.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
January 24, 2016, 5:16pm
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Quoted from ginnywings


All your ramblings in a nutshell.  


Quite.

We've come to expect him to rant on about pretty much any topic, parroting the right-wing agenda and blaming the Labour party or its leaders whilst absolving the Tories regardless of any evidence produced. In fact, if it wasn't for the small readership of this section of this small footy site, you'd think he could be one of the paid Tory trolls who attempt to skew the agenda on news sites.

However, he seems to have completely jumped the shark as regards immigration. Is he seriously, seriously advocating an illegal shoot to kill policy? Absolutely bonkers.
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Grim74
January 24, 2016, 5:43pm
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Quoted from Maringer


Quite.

We've come to expect him to rant on about pretty much any topic, parroting the right-wing agenda and blaming the Labour party or its leaders whilst absolving the Tories regardless of any evidence produced. In fact, if it wasn't for the small readership of this section of this small footy site, you'd think he could be one of the paid Tory trolls who attempt to skew the agenda on news sites.

However, he seems to have completely jumped the shark as regards immigration. Is he seriously, seriously advocating an illegal shoot to kill policy? Absolutely bonkers.


We have migrants breaching security time and time again, the next one to stroll down the tunnel or sneak on a ferry could just be one of the reported jihadis that's residing at Calais, now I'm sure your intelligent enough to imagine the potential devastation that could be caused, but just for ginny wink .... Thousands of British lives are at risk!

Now I'm a shut the stable door before the horse bolts kind of person, so if maiming (1st choice) or even killing a few illegal invaders to send out a clear message And stop a potential atrocity is what it takes then the sooner the better, but if you think it's acceptable for countless breaches without deterrent then I'l accuse you of being bonkers.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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bluerose13x
January 24, 2016, 7:18pm
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I disagree with a lot of Mr Corbyn's views on socialism, the royals, defence etc but I have a rare sense of respect him as a leader of a political party that tells us his views on things and not  what he thinks we want to hear like the rest of them have been doing for at least the last 20/30years
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Grim74
January 24, 2016, 7:59pm
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Quoted from bluerose13x
I disagree with a lot of Mr Corbyn's views on socialism, the royals, defence etc but I have a rare sense of respect him as a leader of a political party that tells us his views on things and not  what he thinks we want to hear like the rest of them have been doing for at least the last 20/30years


Absolutely spot on! I've listened to him over the past year now and there's been a few times when even I've found myself nodding in agreement with his speech, than all over a sudden bang! he will make some crazy madman WTF comment.
But I'll give him his due he actually believes in with a passion that what he says he certainly means, which scares the hell out of me.

I compare him to Donald Trump in that respect yes they are both firmly wedged at opposites sides of the political spectrum but they are the only two politicians I know of (edit.. And Farage) who actually seem to mean what they say, the ones we have today just come across to me as plastic muppets telling us as you say what they think we want to hear.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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grimsby pete
January 24, 2016, 8:21pm

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I think we should take our fair share of the immigrants that are running away from a war torn country,

BUT

Lets build the house needed firstly for our own people who are either waiting on a council list or

can not afford the massive prices of some properties,

We should not just let them in if we do not have the means to support them properly,

42 men living in a 2 bed house earning £10 a day making beds is unforgivable.

There could be over 600 new builds at Peakes Parkway if the council get their finger out.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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Grim74
January 25, 2016, 7:40am
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Quoted from Town Monkey
Maringer whilst I don't always agree with your conclusions or viewpoint, you always provide an interesting and in depth analysis.  That said, I have to take you to task over using Taxresearch as a source.  Surely our old friend Mr Murphy has been so discredited that his pronouncements are more likely to harm your argument.  I won't blouse on about it but take everything he writes with a bucket of salt.  

I look forward to reading more of your otherwise excellent contributions in due course.


He always uses left wing labour biased sources! Its quite laughable really especially when I've pulled him up on this many a time, you can lead a horse to water........


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
January 25, 2016, 11:07am
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Quoted from Grim74


He always uses left wing labour biased sources! Its quite laughable really especially when I've pulled him up on this many a time, you can lead a horse to water........


Yes, I'm guilty of using sources which provide evidence based on statistics or research.

Perhaps you might like to try it some time?

You may note that the taxresearch link under discussion there was simply an analysis at the data as released by HMRC - no opinion involved whatsoever as Town Monkey later agreed. Perhaps you'd like to produce some evidence showing that people in self-employment don't have falling income and around 80% of them aren't in poverty?

No, thought not.
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Chrisblor
January 25, 2016, 12:26pm

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Quoted from Grim74


He always uses left wing labour biased sources! Its quite laughable really especially when I've pulled him up on this many a time, you can lead a horse to water........


You're absolutely useless at assessing the bias of sources.


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January 25, 2016, 2:22pm

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Quoted from Maringer


Yes, I'm guilty of using sources which provide evidence based on statistics or research.

Perhaps you might like to try it some time?

You may note that the taxresearch link under discussion there was simply an analysis at the data as released by HMRC - no opinion involved whatsoever as Town Monkey later agreed. Perhaps you'd like to produce some evidence showing that people in self-employment don't have falling income and around 80% of them aren't in poverty?

No, thought not.


I'm self employed and although I'm not in poverty, I'm earning less now than 5 years ago,about the time the Tories first got into power in fact. They have definitely driven wages down.
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Grim74
January 25, 2016, 3:09pm
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Quoted from ginnywings


I'm self employed and although I'm not in poverty, I'm earning less now than 5 years ago,about the time the Tories first got into power in fact. They have definitely driven wages down.


Unless your talking about our towns and city's such as Boston or London for example, where a high European migrant influx courtesy of new labour has saturated wages for the self employed tradesman then I suggest you are talking bollox.

I know a local gas engineer who left East Coast gas services when they folded a few years ago, he went self employed and is now raking it in, he's moved from a council house to the top end of Cleethorpes in  250,000 house.

If your not in an over prescribed immigrant town i suggest you work harder or your not very good at your job.




Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Chrisblor
January 25, 2016, 4:18pm

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Cool anecdotal evidence Grim74! Let's examine some empirical data on wage growth from the Office of National Statistics:

[img]http://i66.tinypic.com/6731bc.png[/img]

Hmm, what's that? A sustained period of annual wage growth between 0 and 2% since the tories got into power? Oh it looks like you're talking out of your bottom again.


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January 25, 2016, 5:44pm

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Quoted from grimsby pete
I think we should take our fair share of the immigrants that are running away from a war torn country,

BUT

Lets build the house needed firstly for our own people who are either waiting on a council list or

can not afford the massive prices of some properties,

We should not just let them in if we do not have the means to support them properly,

42 men living in a 2 bed house earning £10 a day making beds is unforgivable.

There could be over 600 new builds at Peakes Parkway if the council get their finger out.


Running away, here's what their women think of their men......

[youtube]d8n-eo5fDYU[/youtube]


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

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ginnywings
January 25, 2016, 10:43pm

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That's me told then. Talking out of my bottom and rubbish at my job. You'd think after 25 years of self employment, i'd know what i was doing by now but apparently i just wasn't trying hard enough. Who knew?
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Quoted from Grim74


Unless your talking about our towns and city's such as Boston or London for example, where a high European migrant influx courtesy of new labour has saturated wages for the self employed tradesman then I suggest you are talking bollox.

I know a local gas engineer who left East Coast gas services when they folded a few years ago, he went self employed and is now raking it in, he's moved from a council house to the top end of Cleethorpes in  250,000 house.

If your not in an over prescribed immigrant town i suggest you work harder or your not very good at your job.


You are rude ignorant and worse than foolish(not unusual tory traits);- maybe you think dave is leading us in a booming economy? The truth is he and Osbourne are quite happy with the record immigration figures(Despite his no ifs no buts Guarantee which has gone the same way as Osbourne`s promises on the defecit), it is the only thing keeping the economy expanding, an extra 350,000 buying food and goods and keeping house prices high and wages low.

Maybe you have been self employed in a competitive industry in one of the lowest income areas of the country and believe that most people don`t just want the cheapest quote?   There is a strange race to the bottom mindset with a lot of tories and a perverse jealousy of anyone with a bit of money or success who supports labour.




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Grim74
January 26, 2016, 8:01am
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Quoted from Chrisblor
Cool anecdotal evidence Grim74! Let's examine some empirical data on wage growth from the Office of National Statistics:

[img]http://i66.tinypic.com/6731bc.png[/img]

Hmm, what's that? A sustained period of annual wage growth between 0 and 2% since the tories got into power? Oh it looks like you're talking out of your bottom again.


Here we go another lefty line chart, bar chart, pie chart merchant, that doesn't prove that the self employed are worse off now than 5 years ago your just another bitter Guardianista.
The 2% growth by the way is the average since coming into power taking into account a massive recession at the start of the coalition, coupled with low inflation I think we all should be reasonably content considering.


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Quoted from codcheeky
You are rude ignorant and worse than foolish(not unusual tory traits);- maybe you think dave is leading us in a booming economy? The truth is he and Osbourne are quite happy with the record immigration figures(Despite his no ifs no buts Guarantee which has gone the same way as Osbourne`s promises on the defecit), it is the only thing keeping the economy expanding, an extra 350,000 buying food and goods and keeping house prices high and wages low.

Maybe you have been self employed in a competitive industry in one of the lowest income areas of the country and believe that most people don`t just want the cheapest quote?   There is a strange race to the bottom mindset with a lot of tories and a perverse jealousy of anyone with a bit of money or success who supports labour.






Another one out of the woodwork it's like a yogurt knitters convention on here!

You think I'm rude but it cuts both ways, the problem is if I wasn't on here it would be a lefty labour little bubble click everyone slagging the goverment off, whilst at the same time wishing we had Corbyn and is fat racist toad of a girlfriend Abbott in charge.

I come on here and give an alternative view but the little bubble you have now entered just don't like it, they seem to hate free speech coming from the right its almost fascist like on here, and that's when the silly childish abuse starts and the most pathetic think of all the little red crosses! So excuse me if I seem a tad rude in response to rude replys aimed at me, I want a civil debate believe it or not.

As for your conspiracy theory you may well be right who knows, I just know if we had a labour goverment in charge those migrant figures you talk of would be a drop in the ocean, the flood gates would be back open now and you know it!!!


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January 26, 2016, 10:47am
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Quoted from Grim74


Another one out of the woodwork it's like a yogurt knitters convention on here!

You think I'm rude but it cuts both ways, the problem is if I wasn't on here it would be a lefty labour little bubble click everyone slagging the goverment off, whilst at the same time wishing we had Corbyn and is fat racist toad of a girlfriend Abbott in charge.

I come on here and give an alternative view but the little bubble you have now entered just don't like it, they seem to hate free speech coming from the right its almost fascist like on here, and that's when the silly childish abuse starts and the most pathetic think of all the little red crosses! So excuse me if I seem a tad rude in response to rude replys aimed at me, I want a civil debate believe it or not.

As for your conspiracy theory you may well be right who knows, I just know if we had a labour goverment in charge those migrant figures you talk of would be a drop in the ocean, the flood gates would be back open now and you know it!!!


Why don't you start engaging in one then? It's you that makes the majority of petty, personal and rude responses.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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January 26, 2016, 11:17am
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Maringer:

"You may note that the taxresearch link under discussion there was simply an analysis at the data as released by HMRC - no opinion involved whatsoever as Town Monkey later agreed."

Just to clarify, I hadn't read the article but I have now.  I actually disagree with his simplistic extrapolations.  He may have a point but the data provided doesn't support his conclusion sufficiently.  As ever, he has claimed that the data shows something which we simply can't know.  It's pure propaganda which is his way of course.  That said, it's cleverly written so that it appears to give a clear view supported by evidence without overly committing.  Unfortunately, as with much of the media out there at present, it's not what you know but how loudly or widely you can say it.

Btw, the Guardian referred to him as a "tax expert" yesterday in his response to the Google tax agreement.  If he's a tax expert, I'm Omar Bogle!  (I'm not by the way, nor am I Scott Brown)  
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January 26, 2016, 11:39am

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Chrisblor
January 26, 2016, 12:19pm

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Quoted from Grim74


Here we go another lefty line chart, bar chart, pie chart merchant, that doesn't prove that the self employed are worse off now than 5 years ago your just another bitter Guardianista.
The 2% growth by the way is the average since coming into power taking into account a massive recession at the start of the coalition, coupled with low inflation I think we all should be reasonably content considering.


"Lefty line chart" ffs - it's from the politically independent Office for National Statistics.

And to refute your point, it's very clear from that chart where the recession took place (late 2008 to mid-2009). You can quite clearly see in early 2010 a marked bounce-back in wage growth which we can attribute to Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_United_Kingdom_bank_rescue_package]bailing out[/url] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_United_Kingdom_bank_rescue_package]the banks[/url].

Suddenly, in May 2010 wage growth slumped and hovered between a pitiful 0 to 2%. What happened in May 2010? The Tories formed a Government with the Lib Dems and enforced a blindingly stupid plan of harsh austerity which crushed the nascent recovery. Wages only started to grow again once Osborne quietly changed tact and severely cut back on the degree of austerity (which is why he's missed every defecit reduction target he set).

While you can argue that yes there is a small increase in living standards due to low inflation, the sustained period of low interest rates we're currently experiencing is in no way a good thing for the economy and severely restricts the fiscal options open to the government if we're faced with another economic downturn (which is looking increasingly likely).

But feel free to continue banging on about "bitter Guardianistas" and claiming every source is biased (when it's actually impartial and just doesn't fit the economically bankrupt "WE HAVE TO PAY OFF THE NATIONAL CREDIT CARD" narrative you've been fed and swallowed whole-heartedly) instead of engaging with facts.





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Maringer
January 26, 2016, 1:35pm
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Quoted from Town Monkey
Maringer:

"You may note that the taxresearch link under discussion there was simply an analysis at the data as released by HMRC - no opinion involved whatsoever as Town Monkey later agreed."

Just to clarify, I hadn't read the article but I have now.  I actually disagree with his simplistic extrapolations.  He may have a point but the data provided doesn't support his conclusion sufficiently.  As ever, he has claimed that the data shows something which we simply can't know.  It's pure propaganda which is his way of course.  That said, it's cleverly written so that it appears to give a clear view supported by evidence without overly committing.  Unfortunately, as with much of the media out there at present, it's not what you know but how loudly or widely you can say it.

Btw, the Guardian referred to him as a "tax expert" yesterday in his response to the Google tax agreement.  If he's a tax expert, I'm Omar Bogle!  (I'm not by the way, nor am I Scott Brown)  


Oh come on. You may not like Murphy or may disagree with many of his conclusions, but trying to claim he isn't a tax expert is just nonsense. He's dedicated more than a decade to the field, has advised many NGOs, has given evidence to various select committees in government and is recognised as a well-known campaigner in the field both by friends and foes alike. He's certainly not averse to self-promotion but, as far as I can tell, this doesn't seem to be with the aim of filling his own pockets. His main critics work hand in glove with the big 4 accountancy firms who are, of course, those he is attacking the most for their work in helping corporations and the wealthy avoid or evade taxes.

Regarding the particular article itself with the self-employment data. Which particular extrapolations don't you think hold true? Looking through the figures, it seems to me that his conclusions seem pretty obvious - the minutiae might not be shown in the numbers but the gist of what he says surely can't be any different? Providing the income data are correct, then surely the low income figures for most of the self-employed is worryingly accurate.

The only difference I can think of which might make the figures suspect would be if a large proportion of the self-employed weren't declaring a very large proportion of their income, which would of course indicate they are operating in the black economy. I don't doubt that this holds true to some degree around the margins, but do millions of the self-employed really all lie to HMRC about a huge proportion of their income? Seems doubtful to me.
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ginnywings
January 26, 2016, 3:00pm

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You can earn over £10,000 per year before tax, so if the figures are correct, then the majority of the self employed won't be paying tax anyway. Of course they may also be dodging other stuff they are liable for.

Just to show i'm not totally biased toward Labour, i think the raising of the tax threshold under this and the last parliament is a very good move. Of course it was a Lib Dem policy that the Tories had to take on to get the Lib Dems on board for the coalition and they did introduce it more slowly than the Lib Dems wanted, but all the same........
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Grim74
January 26, 2016, 4:55pm
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Quoted from ginnywings
You can earn over £10,000 per year before tax, so if the figures are correct, then the majority of the self employed won't be paying tax anyway. Of course they may also be dodging other stuff they are liable for.

Just to show i'm not totally biased toward Labour, i think the raising of the tax threshold under this and the last parliament is a very good move. Of course it was a Lib Dem policy that the Tories had to take on to get the Lib Dems on board for the coalition and they did introduce it more slowly than the Lib Dems wanted, but all the same........


I think it's fair to say most self employed  and I speak from experience will bend the rules to save a few quid here and there, and it  also helps having a good accountant, I know  tradesmen locally from joiners to plasterers who I'm pretty certain will have a shoe box or something similar stuffed with notes and tucked away for that rainy day.

Yes good move raising the threshold my son has an apprenticeship earning nearly 16000 a year and he only pays about 1000 in tax, so now he can save for a decent future and have a good deposit for his first house, this is how it should be.

I feel for the school leavers under the Blair years who where led to believe university was for everyone, causing a lossed generation in skilled labour, sadly most of these people are now working at Costa (joke) well in low paid jobs that don't require a degree anyway,.


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Maringer
January 26, 2016, 6:09pm
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So. Tax evasion good, education bad?

What an interesting world you live in.
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Grim74
January 26, 2016, 7:34pm
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Quoted from Maringer
So. Tax evasion good, education bad?

What an interesting world you live in.


Get off your high horse maringer its a small perk of being self employed these lads and lasses don't get the paid holidays or bank holidays we all take for granted, no sickness pay etc, so I for one don't begrudge them hiding a few quid away to cover hard times, and I'm talking hundreds not thousands so get a grip.

When have I ever said education is bad? stop with the pettiness.


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ginnywings
January 26, 2016, 10:14pm

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I'd just like to point out that i declare all my earnings and always have. I'm not getting on a pedestal but believe that everyone should contribute toward the wellbeing of the nation. I just wish that everyone thought this way but i'm not going to condemn a tradesman for doing a saturday morning cash in hand job. That's for them to decide. Too many people who can well afford to pay their taxes, find ways not to.

My accounts show that my earnings have decreased over the last 5 years but that has somewhat been counterbalanced by my tax burden being less than it was, so swings and roundabouts. I'd much rather be earning more and paying a greater contribution toward health and welfare and the like. VAT has forced prices up for the customer and i feel it should be lowered, as it was in Germany to get the building trade moving more healthily as it is a huge part of the economy with all it's spin off jobs.

I've semi retired recently though, so it's more in hope for those following on.
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Marinerz93
January 26, 2016, 11:15pm

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Quoted from Grim74


Unless your talking about our towns and city's such as Boston or London for example, where a high European migrant influx courtesy of new labour has saturated wages for the self employed tradesman then I suggest you are talking bollox.

I know a local gas engineer who left East Coast gas services when they folded a few years ago, he went self employed and is now raking it in, he's moved from a council house to the top end of Cleethorpes in  250,000 house.

If your not in an over prescribed immigrant town i suggest you work harder or your not very good at your job.




I know brickies and joiners in this area who have been effected by migrants dropping their rates to under cut local tradesmen both in Town and jobs further afield. These are hard working lads who do the work to a better standard than migrants, so I would like to know where you get the notion otherwise.  It wasn't so long ago that small building firms were being undercut and either going bust or laying lads off and this was one of the major factors.

I'd like to know why a gas engineer was living in a council house to start with, you never said what his wage was and is now. Do you know his personal circumstances ie deposit against overall debt?


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Grim74
January 27, 2016, 7:25am
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Quoted from Marinerz93


I know brickies and joiners in this area who have been effected by migrants dropping their rates to under cut local tradesmen both in Town and jobs further afield. These are hard working lads who do the work to a better standard than migrants, so I would like to know where you get the notion otherwise.  It wasn't so long ago that small building firms were being undercut and either going bust or laying lads off and this was one of the major factors.


I agree with this was what I was trying to say.

Quoted Text
I'd like to know why a gas engineer was living in a council house to start with, you never said what his wage was and is now. Do you know his personal circumstances ie deposit against overall debt?


Working people can actually rent council homes and he was on a very modest wage at the local company, his earning shot up once he went self employed, he does work hard to be honest late nights, weekends etc very unsocialist, his company is now doing really well and that's aspiration for you.


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Maringer
January 27, 2016, 8:22am
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Quoted from Grim74


Working people can actually rent council homes and he was on a very modest wage at the local company, his earning shot up once he went self employed, he does work hard to be honest late nights, weekends etc very unsocialist, his company is now doing really well and that's aspiration for you.


Nothing wrong with council houses and social housing at all. They are a very sensible idea which is why the Tories have been intent on selling them all off so the lower-paid in society are left at the mercy of the poorly regulated private rental sector.

Incidentally, the "very unsocialist" comment is possibly the most inane thing I've ever seen you write. And believe me, that's going something. If you seriously think anybody with a left-wing bent is lazy then, well, words fail me.

Edit: It's just occurred to me that it may have been an autocorrect typo from "unsociable". If so, then ignore the final paragraph.
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ginnywings
January 27, 2016, 9:05am

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I also have a mate who worked at East Coast and i don't remember him earning a modest wage. I doubt any qualified heating engineer earns a modest wage. He also went self employed when it closed but carried on doing work for the now Westlands and was struggling so much, he had to take a job in London before Christmas.

Anyone can buy a £250,000 pound house if they take on a massive mortgage and work all hours. Is that success? I learned long ago that time is more precious than money and possessions.
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Grim74
January 27, 2016, 5:49pm
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Quoted from ginnywings
I also have a mate who worked at East Coast and i don't remember him earning a modest wage. I doubt any qualified heating engineer earns a modest wage. He also went self employed when it closed but carried on doing work for the now Westlands and was struggling so much, he had to take a job in London before Christmas.


East coast gas employed a lot of sub contractors who could earn good money on the goverment funded installation scheme,  the lads on the books also did well if they worked on these contracts as they got good bonus, but the lads who didn't want to work away and longs hours were doing the private local work on a 40hour week and they wasn't on a big wage, I know for a fact Micron heating a rival firm in town at the time where only paying there install lads £10 p/h.

Have I misread you I'm not having a go but on one hand you seem to disagree on my modest wage for an engineer in this area comment, then you go on to say he had to leave town because maybe his wage was to modest ?


Quoted Text
Anyone can buy a £250,000 pound house if they take on a massive mortgage and work all hours. Is that success? I learned long ago that time is more precious than money and possessions.


Agree I would rather have my days to myself rather than work when I don't have to life's is to short, my friend once said to me that one day he will be on Humberstone ave, now if that's his aim and ambition and he deems himself successful by getting there then good luck to him, I'm not going to judge him.


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January 27, 2016, 7:14pm

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He earned a decent whack at East Coast fitting boilers mainly but i'm not certain if he was self employed or not. When they went bust, he bought a new van and struck out on his own, finding his own work, which included some for Westlands as they became. He was on a contract fitting new bathroom suites, might have been for Shoreline i think, but the contractor lost the contract and he took a job in London because he was skint and had no work of his own. I know that before he went down there, he was not earning as much as his skill level warranted.
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Marinerz93
January 27, 2016, 7:50pm

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Quoted from Grim74


Working people can actually rent council homes and he was on a very modest wage at the local company, his earning shot up once he went self employed, he does work hard to be honest late nights, weekends etc very unsocialist, his company is now doing really well and that's aspiration for you.


I know working people can rent council homes, it's just I don't know any gas safe/corgi gas fitters who do due to the income they earn. As a registered gas safe engineer I know people can and do put the hours in, and I also know gas engineers that are that busy, they inflate their rates to put people off.

The big risk with being self employed is chasing payments, it only takes one company not to pay and you could be anywhere from £5k-£10+ in a hole.  Also you end up picking up work that others have turned down because of where boilers and pipework is located, believe me there are some right jobs out there. Pushing yourself with the risks involved working all hours isn't worth the risk, you only need to make one mistake and you could kill someone and end up in prison or even lose your business.  The last gas man on site is responsible for the whole installation, you have to be spot on with every job you do, can he be confident of that when he is tired. I aspire to be able to sleep at night after a days work, freedom is something you can't buy from a cell.

Good luck to anyone who is self employed, but for me at this moment in time, I'd rather have steady work, be home early and choose if I want to work late or not.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Maringer
January 27, 2016, 8:11pm
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Quite a reasonable view z93.

All most people want is a good job, with a reliable wage. The fact that so many are being forced into low-paying self-employed jobs probably explains to a good degree why tax takes are so poor despite the relatively high employment figures.

To get any sort of strength in the economy, we need better paying jobs but, with the ever-declining manufacturing sector, I can't see how we'll get there. There is only so far that service industries can go in building a strong economy and I think we're probably way past that level already.

The ideal policy to boost the economy and help to resolve many of our problems would be a major house building programme (talking millions of houses here), but I don't think we have enough expertise to build any sort of a quantity of housing any longer after decades of running down the sector.

Not that any party is going to have the balls to upset the voters of the south east who are foolishly expecting their houses to continue to appreciate in value ad infinitum. Build millions of houses (which are needed) and lots of speculators in the housing market will lose out big time. We'll have to wait until after the next collapse in the market before this could be considered. Pity that will mean suffering a further recession as well. Might not be too long away now either.
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Marinerz93
January 27, 2016, 9:01pm

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Quoted from Maringer
Quite a reasonable view z93.

All most people want is a good job, with a reliable wage. The fact that so many are being forced into low-paying self-employed jobs probably explains to a good degree why tax takes are so poor despite the relatively high employment figures.

To get any sort of strength in the economy, we need better paying jobs but, with the ever-declining manufacturing sector, I can't see how we'll get there. There is only so far that service industries can go in building a strong economy and I think we're probably way past that level already.

The ideal policy to boost the economy and help to resolve many of our problems would be a major house building programme (talking millions of houses here), but I don't think we have enough expertise to build any sort of a quantity of housing any longer after decades of running down the sector.

Not that any party is going to have the balls to upset the voters of the south east who are foolishly expecting their houses to continue to appreciate in value ad infinitum. Build millions of houses (which are needed) and lots of speculators in the housing market will lose out big time. We'll have to wait until after the next collapse in the market before this could be considered. Pity that will mean suffering a further recession as well. Might not be too long away now either.


Fair points Maringer, other things to consider is that Gas safe/Corgi engineers have to resit the exam every 5 years, this is additional costs. For Electricians, there is updates to IEE wiring regs, Part P and on site guides that amount to several hundred pounds. Also the registration fees to be associated with the relevant bodies.

But this isn't the only industry were self employed people are being squeezed, taxi drivers have to fork out to local councils, auditors and licencing bodies. This can equate to being around £400 every month I was told by one taxi driver.

Building contractors are also being squeezed by the council, they have to pay fee's because more people will be using services(schools,hospitals,roads), utility costs are also quite high. Developers are relcutant to come to this neck of the woods because the profit isn't as good as say some where near Leeds where they can get anywhere from £50k to a £100K more per house sold.

What is needed in every Town and City is an estate or small tenements of two / one bedroom housing. I was speaking to someone who worked for the council whose job is to try and find landlords of run down houses so that they can either get the houses off them or some how offer incentives for the landlord to redevelop those houses. Apparently in the GY area alone there is around 2,000 properties that she has to chase down. Taking that into consideration, if this was the case in every Town and City, it would go some way to lessen that shortage.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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AdamHaddock
January 28, 2016, 12:39am

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The coup may be coming this year. You can bet the likes of Mandelson are busy  in the background trying to orchestrate something, particularly if we do badly in May. Various people putting their two penneth into an article
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/01/should-labour-split


[img]https://images.app.goo.gl/bymuz36koLHofSn79[/img]
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Maringer
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I wonder if the Blairites realise that any coup will pretty much lead to the end of the party. I'd certainly never vote for them again but not sure where my vote would end up. Probably closest to the Greens but for their nonsensical energy policy.
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grimsby pete
January 28, 2016, 2:12pm

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Quoted from Marinerz93


Running away, here's what their women think of their men......

[youtube]d8n-eo5fDYU[/youtube]



I should have said our fair share of family's running away,

For a man to leave a worn torn country and leave their wife and children there is disgraceful.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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Marinerz93
January 28, 2016, 5:43pm

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Quoted from grimsby pete



I should have said our fair share of family's running away,

For a man to leave a worn torn country and leave their wife and children there is disgraceful.


We should support families especially those with young children. However, that doesn't mean we should take them in, we could support and aid them better were they are.

The majority of those at Calais are not from Syria and they are certainly not families.  These people who have latched on to the Syrian problem are causing mayhem in Europe.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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Rik e B
February 2, 2016, 9:36pm

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70% men of military age, economic migrants not refugees at all. One almighty Trojan Horse in there no doubt, ISIS have even said theyre sending 500,000! Massive cover up of the rape of European women and the rest of it, forget the propaganda main stream media and use your noggin digging deeper for independent media coverage.
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barralad
February 3, 2016, 8:24am
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Quoted from Rik e B
70% men of military age, economic migrants not refugees at all. One almighty Trojan Horse in there no doubt, ISIS have even said theyre sending 500,000! Massive cover up of the rape of European women and the rest of it, forget the propaganda main stream media and use your noggin digging deeper for independent media coverage.


Is there any such thing as independent media coverage. He who pays the piper calls the tune....


The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

Joseph Joubert.
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Marinerz93
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Quoted from barralad


Is there any such thing as independent media coverage. He who pays the piper calls the tune....


Thousands of media outlets owned by 7 corporations, I would say not.

You have to look for videos / blogs of people uploading from those countries, look at some of the videos uploaded by lorry drivers.


Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.

Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
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codcheeky
June 25, 2017, 9:59am
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Well Corbyn has changed things a little, he doesn't seem so unelectable now
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Hagrid
June 25, 2017, 10:28am

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Ohhhhhh jeremy corbyn
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barralad
June 25, 2017, 2:32pm
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I know that it is a sweeping generalisation to say that everyone attending Glastonbury classes as "young" (i.e. 18-34) but I'd be happier seeing Jezza reaching out to a far wider audience. Labour did very well at the last election amongst the 35-49 age group. Labour neglect this group at their peril.


The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

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grimsby pete
June 25, 2017, 6:25pm

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I think all governments should consider the old 1st 2nd and 3rd,  

BECAUSE

Everybody will be old one day,

Apart from the ones for whatever reason do not reach old age,

AND

They will not be bothered.

On a more serious note I have noted a change in Corbyn,

He has smartened himself up and is not talking about sticking up for terrorist groups.

With May on a short life expectancy as PM there could be another election in the next 2 years,

If Corbyn keeps his past in the past it will be a good fight that he might win.


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Skrill
June 25, 2017, 9:21pm

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euf00tfRMBY

Jeremy do you know what happens to the working class once you allow mass-immigration?
Take a gander:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/research/Documents/workingpapers/2015/swp574.pdf


[tweet]316134373063806976[/tweet]
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Grim74
June 26, 2017, 12:22pm
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May does deal with DUP. Corbyn can now concede defeat and go back to being the national joker with his ex, Abbott 😂


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Manchester Mariner
June 26, 2017, 12:58pm

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£130 million to pay for the election.

£1 billion to buy the DUP for 2 years and maybe more to cover the rest of the 5 year term.

A good 2017 for the tax payer.


"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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Grim74
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Quoted from Manchester Mariner
£130 million to pay for the election.

£1 billion to buy the DUP for 2 years and maybe more to cover the rest of the 5 year term.

A good 2017 for the tax payer.


A price worth paying to keep Corbo out you need to ask yourself
A. How much he would cost the tax payer?
B. Would Corbo contemplate a deal with the DUP like Brown did?


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Skrill
June 26, 2017, 4:48pm

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Quoted from Manchester Mariner
£1 billion to buy the DUP for 2 years and maybe more to cover the rest of the 5 year term.


Corbyn advised by his communist-Marxist buddy McDonnell, the leftist Emily Thornberry and inept and anti-British Abbot would be ready to spend £90-£150 Billion in one instant. If you have ever seen such a horrid display of politicians so eager to destroy the working class, divide our communities and majorities, turn this beautiful nation into a socialist pit (yes we still have many problems, not as many as Venezuela, though), not even acknowledge or define the sheer threat we face with Islamic Terrorism (at least May said 'Evil ideology of Islamic Terrorism' and increased, funded armed police forces that are stopping attacks almost daily). Hence why Labour lost the election and if they keep going as they are now, will lose the working class vote even further.

I agree the DUP are a funny lot, in regards to social policies and attitudes today (however they have a right to their opinion, and any acts of discrimination is codified in law so who gives a damn anyway?), however, what about the sheer hypocrisy of the EU? The now Sultan Erdogan, dictator of Turkey, has removed Evolution from the schools in Turkey! Where is the out-cry here? The EU still want turkey to become a member..    


[tweet]316134373063806976[/tweet]
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Maringer
June 26, 2017, 5:26pm
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Wonderful fantasy in that post there, Skrill.

This UK is nothing like Venezuela and the right-wing attempts to claim that we would suddenly become so under the moderate social democratic manifesto of the Labour Party are just as ridiculous as you might expect. You actually covered almost all of the right-wing bullshit bingo phrases in your first sentence which is going some.

The Labour Party plan to invest much-needed money in housing, infrastructure, training, education and the like and the £90 to £150 billion (make your mind up - which figure?) would go some way to making up the appalling levels of underfunding in these areas which we've seen in the UK over past decades.

Bear in mind we are talking about investment here, not just spending for the sake of it - this provides a return so it's not, for example the same as the £600 or so billion borrowed by the Tories just to pay the bills since 2010, though obviously the fallout following the global financial crisis accounts for much of that vast figure. It's just the Tories failed austerity policies which have really cost us lost income.
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Skrill
June 26, 2017, 7:00pm

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Quoted from Maringer
Wonderful fantasy in that post there, Skrill.


https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992
The man said it himself. (refresh the page if it doesn't show )

Venezuela's previous president, Hugo Chavez, set the stage for the country's destruction by spending Venezuela's oil money on social programs designed to boost his popularity even as he set about wrecking the country's assets, expropriating most valuable private companies. Jeremy Corbyn's recent skint at the middle-class Glastonbury concert talked about "scrapping the current system, it is now time for a new "system" that works for "everyone". This is what happened to Venezuela, socialists (or what we have, out-right Communist-Marxists), touting equal wealth by socialism, when in reality it is the cheapest political trick.

Yes the poor do matter don't they Jeremy? Hypocrite.

http://theweek.com/articles/693411/venezuelas-socialist-hell


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Grim74
June 26, 2017, 8:10pm
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Even Ed Balls-up admitting the working class would take the hit for Corbo's Socialism, costed my bottom.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/.....vish-spending-plans/


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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Quoted from Grim74


A price worth paying to keep Corbo out you need to ask yourself
A. How much he would cost the tax payer?
B. Would Corbo contemplate a deal with the DUP like Brown did?


We'll never know because it didn't happen but what we do know now is that everything the Tories professed a Labour government to be, that would destroy the country is being carried out by themselves. A dubious coalition of chaos involving a party with not only terrorist sympathies but terrorist alliances who just rinsed the government for a cool 1 billion pounds(magic money tree?). And what makes it even more bizarre is the DUP generally always vote with the Tories anyway. And it was all completely unnecessary, May would have  had a majority, done what she wanted with Brexit and be over a billion pounds better off. Instead she believed what the unfounded Looney media were telling her about how popular she was and called an election which all went to excrement.

You can share all the quotes and stats that you want from the Telegraph, Guardian, or University of Bamber Gascoigne but the undeniable reality is that the country is worse off than it was, the government is lead by a bunch of inept weirdos who inspire zero confidence and even then there's still Brexit to come but I suppose I'm just talking the country down and being unpatriotic (c) Andrea Leadsom.

In the words of Fraser out of the Dads Army. "Dooooommmmmeeedddd!"



"Lovelly stuff! not my words but the words of Shakin Stevens."
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Maringer
June 27, 2017, 12:01am
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Quoted from Skrill


Venezuela's previous president, Hugo Chavez, set the stage for the country's destruction by spending Venezuela's oil money on social programs designed to boost his popularity even as he set about wrecking the country's assets, expropriating most valuable private companies. Jeremy Corbyn's recent skint at the middle-class Glastonbury concert talked about "scrapping the current system, it is now time for a new "system" that works for "everyone". This is what happened to Venezuela, socialists (or what we have, out-right Communist-Marxists), touting equal wealth by socialism, when in reality it is the cheapest political trick.


One last time. Venezuela is absolutely nothing like the UK and the UK could never become like Venezuela if the moderate social democratic policies of the Labour Party were enacted. Look towards the Scandinavian democracies such as Norway, Sweden, Denmark and the like to see what we should be aiming for. Better living standards from greater public spending (and taxation of the wealthy) leading to better education, lower poverty, lower inequality.

The attempted comparison to Venezuela is preposterous as it has long been one of the most corrupt countries in the world and was a petro kleptocracy long before Chavez came to power (and long before he attempted to carry out a coup back in 1992). Chavez undoubtedly attempted to get rid of much of the previous corrupt establishment (which attempted a coup against him in 2002) but corruption remained endemic. Chavez undoubtedly did some good spending a lot of money on the poorest Venezuelans (which is what Corbyn praised) and improving health, education and reducing poverty, but let's not forget that first and foremost he was a populist and his main aim was to cement his own position. Now, whether or not Chavez was worse than the previous corrupt governments, I can't say, but I'd say that the 'socialism' has less to do with the country's problems than the corruption and the fragile state of their society. At the very least, you'd have to say it was poor planning from Chavez - having vast potential oil wealth is all well and good, but they ended up with 95% of the country's economy being reliant on oil and once the oil price collapsed they were stuffed.

In fact, the oil price collapse wasn't the only problem because Venezuela also has large amounts of foreign debt (denominated in US dollars) and it seems the current president Maduro has been servicing these foreign debts rather than buying food for his citizens:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/29/venezuela-is-making-surreal-suicidal-debt-payments.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news.....-bonds-quicktake-q-a

An interesting choice, to say the least.

As for Corbyn, it seems he praised Chavez on occasions for the good things for the Venezuelan poor that he did but it doesn't seem he was very critical about some of the other policies which were enacted. Probably a failing on his part to some degree. If you like, you can equate this to the way that the Tories never criticise the Saudis for their illiberal policies and support of terrorist groups. Or the DUP, or that matter!
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Maringer
June 27, 2017, 12:14am
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Quoted from Grim74
Even Ed Balls-up admitting the working class would take the hit for Corbo's Socialism, costed my bottom.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/.....vish-spending-plans/


Not the first time Ed Balls has been wrong.

Surprising, really, as he's a highly-educated economist but he's obviously been in politics so long that he's forgotten pretty much all he learned about macroeconomics while at university. Either that or he can't admit he was wrong support the abandonment of too many moderate left-wing policies back in the New Labour era.

I'll say it again - the Scandinavian social democracies show what we should be doing with our country and what could be achieved. I still find it amazing that so many are so desperate to follow the horribly flawed American neo-liberal model which is seeing society collapse around us.

Yawning gaps in inequality, housing and asset bubbles making property and rent almost unaffordable, vast and ever-increasing private debts, most of the wealth going to rentiers who do nothing to earn it. It's a shocking situation, yet still people vote for more punishment for the young and the poor, preferring to doff their caps to the wealthy.
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Grim74
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Quoted from Manchester Mariner


We'll never know because it didn't happen but what we do know now is that everything the Tories professed a Labour government to be, that would destroy the country is being carried out by themselves. A dubious coalition of chaos involving a party with not only terrorist sympathies but terrorist alliances who just rinsed the government for a cool 1 billion pounds(magic money tree?). And what makes it even more bizarre is the DUP generally always vote with the Tories anyway. And it was all completely unnecessary, May would have  had a majority, done what she wanted with Brexit and be over a billion pounds better off. Instead she believed what the unfounded Looney media were telling her about how popular she was and called an election which all went to excrement.

You can share all the quotes and stats that you want from the Telegraph, Guardian, or University of Bamber Gascoigne but the undeniable reality is that the country is worse off than it was, the government is lead by a bunch of inept weirdos who inspire zero confidence and even then there's still Brexit to come but I suppose I'm just talking the country down and being unpatriotic (c) Andrea Leadsom.

In the words of Fraser out of the Dads Army. "Dooooommmmmeeedddd!"



You moan about a billion but want this shower of excrement in

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn


Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he votes Labour.
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