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On the train home to Sussex, can someone just explain why the ref only gave a yellow card to their goalie for hand ball outside the area? If he's given the yellow he's acknowledged the goalie has handled outside the area, a automatic red card surely?!?! Being accidental is not an issue that fact ollies shot was goal bound just makes it worse, I think the ref made a fundamental refereeing error and should be brought to account
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Let's not clutch at straws we would of been raging had McKeown been sent off. Let's sleep and regroup
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Ref deemed it NOT to be a goal scoring opportunity as there was a defender behind the goalie
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Not clutching straws
A massive error by the ref, it's not his interpretation of a footballing law, he got it wrong, the goalie committed a red card offence and the ref got it wrong. Rovers down to 10 for the majority of the match? A massive massive decision
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The ball was heading for the goal with no chance of anyone stopping it - apart from the goalkeeper with his hand - outside of the penalty area.
With Town at 1-0 up and in control of the game at this point - The ref did the Gasheads a big favour in my view.
Puddy's keeping was exemplary after this, as he cut out nearly all of Towns crosses and minimised our threat.
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"Ref deemed it NOT to be a goal scoring opportunity as there was a defender behind the goalie"
But it was the goalie that handled the ball outside his area, that's a automatic sending off isn't it?!?? Even if Palmer had not taken a shot ! I stand to be corrected but that is what I've always thought?
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All ifs and maybes. The referee should have sent him off but on another day McKeown could have been sent off and conceded a penalty. The only thing I do know is that Palmer should have cleared the corner that they scored from.
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Teestogreen |
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With 10 men on the pitch for Bristol Rovers, it is unlikely that the game would have evolved in the same way - as to create the McKeown and Palmer incidents.
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Eastendmariner |
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Since when 1 on 1 not a goal scoring opportunity just like their penalty pants on both counts you could not make it up. If those two des ions had been in the cup final with any of the top four the ref would of been sacrificed at half time .what supporters want is constant referring not make it up as you go along. Regroup and start again I thought town where superb today really proud of the players.
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As we all know a team can play better or worse with 10 players so who knows what would have happened. All I was trying to say is that a game is full of decisions that are out of the players hands. At the end of the day the best over 120 minutes lost today.
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I think the thing that saved the keeper from a red was the fact that the ball hit his arm after hitting him on the waistline, i might be wrong, but i think that a red for a keeper is for deliberate hand ball outside the box, i was as gutted as everyone, but i think it would be harsh to say that it was deliberate. I am probably in the minority, but i thought the ref had a decent game, didn't fall for that disgusting play acting by Taylor after he almost decapitated our keeper and didn't fall for the dive that many would have when Taylor went down after being one on one with McKeown.It was poetic justice that Taylor got his black eye when diving to get a penalty. I feel equally devastated as all GTFC fans will, we were the better side, the players gave it their all, but the lack of quality forwards and ideas in the final third has cost us again IMO.
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The TV pundits mostly agreed it should have been a red and i concur. Denying a goalscoring opportunity is a straight red bit it matters not now. We lost and they are celebrating what is a very good achievement by them in going back up at the first attempt. We should be so lucky; another season at least in the dregs.
These close games hang on such moments.
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These things even themselves out.pn another day with a worse ref mckeownn could be gone and we had no reserve keeper.also magnay should've been sent off for two yellows
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It just had to be that ref though!!
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Yeah they even up. I remember last year when Ross Joyce didn't send Neilson off for having no contact with a player hmmm
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mariner91 |
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He's stopped a shot heading towards goal with his arm outside of his area. It's a clear and obvious red card. If a goalkeeper stopping a shot at goal is not considered a goal scoring chance then I give up trying to interpret the rules.
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MuddyWaters |
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The first big decision went their way - let's be in no doubt. Goalie handballs outside the area is a straight red, there was absolutely no doubt about it, any decisions after that are superfluous as the game may have evolved differently. The reason Mckeown didn't walk was because Joyce needed to even it up.
Bottom line is that when a ref needed to follow the rules, he didn't have the balls to do so. Story of Town's recent history sadly.
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Sussexmariner |
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These things even themselves out.pn another day with a worse ref mckeownn could be gone and we had no reserve keeper.also magnay should've been sent off for two yellows
It's not a case of even themselves out, Magnay sent off or not, McKeownn off or not is an opinion of the ref, right or wrong but he gave a yellow card to their goalie so he accepted he handled the ball deliberately outside the box, if he thought it was accidental he would of given nothing. So what was the yellow card for? Handball by the goalie outside the box, a straight red, end of There's no interpretation in this, just like if he gives 2 yellow cards to a player, he has to send the player off, he has no "opinion or interpretation" in that decision, I'm still fuming
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Ross Joyce is a a gutless girl private and he bottled this decision. The effort was on target, their defenders weren't going to get back and it was a clear goal scoring opportunity. Bristol are cheats and they can intercourse right off..
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I could sort of understand it if he'd waved play on, but once he's given a foul for deliberate handball (stopping a shot) then it's a red card, that's the law isn't it? He seems to have made his own up.
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chaos33 |
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It's not a case of even themselves out, Magnay sent off or not, McKeownn off or not is an opinion of the ref, right or wrong but he gave a yellow card to their goalie so he accepted he handled the ball deliberately outside the box, if he thought it was accidental he would of given nothing. So what was the yellow card for? Handball by the goalie outside the box, a straight red, end of
There's no interpretation in this, just like if he gives 2 yellow cards to a player, he has to send the player off, he has no "opinion or interpretation" in that decision,
I'm still fuming
It's hard to disagree. If the ref thought the ball to arm contact was purely accidental, then why book the keeper? It's red or it's nothing, surely?
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To be honest - the appointment of that referee for this play off final, after the Gateshead debacle last season, needs to be investigated (given the outcome of this game and the manner of it) because it is bringing the Vanarama Conference League in to disrepute i.m.o.
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Robbed and I'm gutted, that was a red full stop and yet again we have lost to inept refereeing
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I was in a bad position to judge but Ollie's reaction suggested it was goal bound and that it hit his arm, if both are true then it's pretty unbelievable he wasn't dispatched.
Then again I thought Gregor bundled over Taylor in the box.
I thought Taylor dived as he went down easily and it just didn't look right.
Maybe Taylor should also have been sent off for A, the kicking out at Macca early on, B, the dive, C, descent any two of those 3 and he's gone.
I think we all just have to accept it wasn't our day and however bad we feel, JP must feel much, much, much worse.
Maybe next year, C'mon Town!
Grimsby 'Til I Die
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Hand ball outside the box by a goalkeeper is not an auto red unles it prevents a goal scoring opportunity, IMO it did but sadly it is down to the refs interpretation. Palmers shot did look goal bound but the officials bottled it
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Just watched it back..
How on earth did he stay on the pitch!?
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mariner91 |
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Just watched it back..
How on earth did he stay on the pitch!?
Are the highlights on the internet? Or did you record it?
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Sussexmariner |
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Having just plucked up the courage to watch the game I recorded, I'm still flipping fuming about the blatant handball, instant dismissal, no ifs, no buts, no need for the ref to "interpret" the the law regarding a goal keeper handling outside his area.
This is going to be a long summer
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mariner91 |
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Is the footage anywhere on the internet? I still haven't seen it since the game.
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big al |
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It's either a red or nothing at all. There's some bloke on the 'Gas bag' thing stating that it was accidental handball. He's a qualified referee and giving a long drawn out reason why it was 'ball to hand' and not 'hand to ball'. I'd find the link but I can't be bothered.
My thinking is that as Puddy stormed out of his area, he's acting like a keeper - his instinct is to save the ball. Even if his hands are by his sides he is still seeking to stop it - it's highly likely that he will indeed, stop the ball. Inside the area, it's a great stop - outside the area, it has to be a premeditated and cynical act that would require his sending off.
(if the ball's not heading for the goal I guess there is a case to argue that a goal scoring chance wasn't denied - I haven't seen it yet on video and couldn't tell from where we were at Wembley whether it was heading for the goal)
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It should've been red.... no question....
Ross Joyce = Priapismic Onanist ( grade 1 )
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Are the highlights on the internet? Or did you record it?
Someone's just posted it here [url=http://thefishy.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1432072869/] http://thefishy.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1432072869/[/url]
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mariner91 |
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Someone's just posted it here [url=http://thefishy.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1432072869/]http://thefishy.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1432072869/[/url]
Eugh, how depressing. Clearly DOGSO. There's no way on earth that defender catches up with a goal bound shot.
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I clipped that from Mariners Player - so hopefully not too much of a copyright infringement.. If you watch the highlights it's around the 5 minute mark.. At full speed there's no chance the defender would get it.
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surely we have grounds to complain to the fa about this incompetent twit Joyce who's reason for not sending the goalkeeper off is an absolute disgrace- see palmers interview for what I mean!
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Al, there is no such offence as accidental handball, so the 'qualified ref' is talking out of the same hole where Joyce plucked the original decision from. I can't bear to watch it yet. If it's as bad as I think it's going to be, I might just explode.
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i'm confused... where in the Laws Of Association Football does it say if the keeper handles the ball outside the box its a sending off offence?
Timmo
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It is if he stops a goal-bound shot. This then is deemed to be denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity (dogso). Joyce surely wins twit of the season.
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No doubt in my mind that it was a red card but what concerns me is why didn't they appoint a higher standard league ref bearing in mind the status of the game and what was at stake. First class venue with a 5th class official. The people that run this league have less grey matter than the refs who manage the games.
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The FA Trophy Final gets Premiership referee Michael Oliver whilst the far more important Conference Play-Off Final get that clown Ross Joyce!
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The reason it IS handball is because the keeper spread his arms out to make himself bigger.
Ever noticed that these days defenders in the area put their arms behind their back when trying to stop a shot or cross. This is to stop giving away a penalty.
If you put your arms out you are intentionally trying to stop the ball with your hands.
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i'm confused... where in the Laws Of Association Football does it say if the keeper handles the ball outside the box its a sending off offence?
Timmo
UTM
Timmo, you can tell I lead a sad life, hand ball and "interpretation" - it comes under Law 12 "interpretation of the laws of the game" - fouls and missconduct. With regards to handball the referee must take the following into consideration: • the movement of the hand towards the football (not the ball towards the hand) • the distance between the opponent and the football (unexpected ball) Disciplinary sanctions A caution is given for unsporting behaviour when a player deliberately handles the ball, e.g. when a player deliberately handles the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession. A player is sent off, however, if he prevents a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. This punishment arises not from the act of the player deliberately handling the ball but from the unacceptable and unfair intervention that prevented a goal being scored. I'm actually seething now, especially if the ref did not send the player off to "spoil" the game. I would have had no problem whatsoever if we had seen that game out 1-0 or won it 2-0 or 3-0.
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timmo |
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Timmo, you can tell I lead a sad life, hand ball and "interpretation" - it comes under Law 12 "interpretation of the laws of the game" - fouls and missconduct.
With regards to handball the referee must take the following into consideration: • the movement of the hand towards the football (not the ball towards the hand) • the distance between the opponent and the football (unexpected ball)
Disciplinary sanctions A caution is given for unsporting behaviour when a player deliberately handles the ball, e.g. when a player deliberately handles the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession.
A player is sent off, however, if he prevents a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. This punishment arises not from the act of the player deliberately handling the ball but from the unacceptable and unfair intervention that prevented a goal being scored.
I'm actually seething now, especially if the ref did not send the player off to "spoil" the game. I would have had no problem whatsoever if we had seen that game out 1-0 or won it 2-0 or 3-0.
Agreed, as a qualified ref completing 100's of games, the quote which is confusing me is if a keeper handles it outside the box he is dismissed regardless... Personally I don't think he should have been sent off... I haven't seen it back or seen the incident other than 100yards away. I thought Mr Joyce had a good game. Timmo UTM
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Personally I don't think he should have been sent off... I haven't seen it back or seen the incident other than 100yards away. I thought Mr Joyce had a good game.
Timmo UTM
So, Puddy saving a shot with his hand outside the box (and deliberately saving it with his hand - it didn't just hit him) doesn't count as preventing a goal or obvious goalscoring opportunity? What was it, then? Basketball?
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Meza |
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This is the problem with refs nowadays and probably the reason why they get so much stick is because they don't follow the letter of the law but interpret their own law. Puddy should have walked end of.....do you think he would have walked if it was against Man U etc....of course he would.
And i don't think McKeown should have walked either i saw the incident very well and Taylor went down well after McKeown touched the ball.
Whichever way you look at it we were robbed end of.
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mariner2000 |
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On the two Magnay cards the way I say his yellow was the he foolishly got involved with a BR player who was pushing and shoving him so Magnay pushed and shoved him back. If the ref had actually picked up the foul by the BR player Magnay would not have reacted and would not have been booked....Another poor decision but more IFS and BUTS
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gobby |
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I felt Puddy should have walked for DOGSO. Macca did make contact with Taylor's ankle and if the player had gone down with less drama he may have got the penalty. But the handball in the second half for a penalty for Town that Joyce clearly saw but waved away was just as bad as the keepers handball. 3 bad decisions in a game of this magnitude for me results in a bad day at the office for Joyce. Saying that from the stands and in real time it looked like he had a decent game, unfortunately TV and replays say different. UTMM
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Lambretta Mariner |
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Agreed, as a qualified ref completing 100's of games, the quote which is confusing me is if a keeper handles it outside the box he is dismissed regardless...
Personally I don't think he should have been sent off... I haven't seen it back or seen the incident other than 100yards away. I thought Mr Joyce had a good game.
Timmo UTM
I wouldn't want you refereeing any games I was involved in then.
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ginnywings |
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It was either deliberate handball or it wasn't. Once Joyce booked him, then he decided it was a deliberate handball and therefore should have been a sending off. I have absolutely no doubt about it but he seemed to have come up with some half way law of his own. If he'd said that yes it was handball but in his opinion not a DOGSO, then i could maybe understand but he has compounded it with his lame, half a$$ed reason, the spineless fecker.
Apart from that, it seems that we never get the benefit of dodgy decisions, which is also galling. If the Ref is going to make a mistake (which invariably happens at this level) why the eff can't we get a game changer in our direction for once?
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Rodley Mariner |
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He didn't deny a clear goal scoring opportunity - Palmer had got his shot off. The question therefore is did he deny a goal and I haven't seen a camera angle which answers that. If Joyce wasn't sure it was on target then he could only really give a yellow. Ultimately it doesn't really matter sadly.
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GrahamH |
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I felt Puddy should have walked for DOGSO. Macca did make contact with Taylor's ankle and if the player had gone down with less drama he may have got the penalty. But the handball in the second half for a penalty for Town that Joyce clearly saw but waved away was just as bad as the keepers handball. 3 bad decisions in a game of this magnitude for me results in a bad day at the office for Joyce. Saying that from the stands and in real time it looked like he had a decent game, unfortunately TV and replays say different. UTMM
Agree with everything you say, but I would also suggest that Taylor should have had TWO YELLOWS the horrible little cheating Tw@t!
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mariner91 |
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Agreed, as a qualified ref completing 100's of games, the quote which is confusing me is if a keeper handles it outside the box he is dismissed regardless...
Personally I don't think he should have been sent off... I haven't seen it back or seen the incident other than 100yards away. I thought Mr Joyce had a good game.
Timmo UTM
Congratulations! You have been promoted to refereeing in the Vanarama Conference. Your fixture list for the coming season will be with you in 4 weeks.
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ginnywings |
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He didn't deny a clear goal scoring opportunity - Palmer had got his shot off. The question therefore is did he deny a goal and I haven't seen a camera angle which answers that. If Joyce wasn't sure it was on target then he could only really give a yellow. Ultimately it doesn't really matter sadly.
If that is the case, then yes, i agree it was a yellow. If it's unclear whether it was a DOGSO or not, i guess on that basis, he was correct. Why then say what he said? As you point out, doesn't matter now.
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Rodley Mariner |
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If that is the case, then yes, i agree it was a yellow. If it's unclear whether it was a DOGSO or not, i guess on that basis, he was correct.
Why then say what he said?
As you point out, doesn't matter now.
If he did say what Palmer says then it puts a different spin on it. Discounting that for me it can't be DOGSO as he'd had his shot. If he went to round him and he handled it that would be DOGSO. So it can only be red if it was denying a goal and how could he be sure it's on target? Only my take on it though and am clearly in a minority!
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mariner91 |
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If he did say what Palmer says then it puts a different spin on it. Discounting that for me it can't be DOGSO as he'd had his shot. If he went to round him and he handled it that would be DOGSO. So it can only be red if it was denying a goal and how could he be sure it's on target? Only my take on it though and am clearly in a minority!
If the situation had been slightly different and the last man in that position had been an outfield player, would you not consider that DOGSO then? Let's say the keeper has rushed out and is no longer in goal (don't know why but he has) and an outfield player stops a shot with his hand, the fact he's had the shot is irrelevant, the shot was the goal scoring opportunity as there was nobody left after the defender to stop it and the player has prevented it by using his arm. In the same sense, the keeper had stopped the ball illegally with his hand and there was nobody to block the shot after him so he has denied the goal scoring opportunity therefore it's a red card. Whether or not it was on target is irrelevant really, it's still denied the goal scoring opportunity by using his hand outside his area.
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Maringer |
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The keeper came rushing out of his area and deliberately saved the shot with his hand - it didn't just hit him, he actively had his arms spread out trying to make the save.
If the keeper obviously thought it was a goalscoring opportunity, perhaps the referee should have taken that into account?
Next season in the Premiershite/Champions League, I guarantee we'll see footage of a few occasions where the keeper receives his marching orders in a similar situation, most of them probably even less blatant than Puddy's offence.
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TownSNAFU5 |
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I thought at the time that the ref for remembering the (unfair) abuse that Howard Webb got in the Spain v Holland Word Cup Final.
Holland were just dirty and Webb had no alternative but to take the repeated disciplinary action that he took. He was strong enough to do so and followed the laws of football.
The unfair criticism from somequarters related to the fact that he "allegedly" ruined a showpiece final in forn a world-wide audience, Holland did that.
Mr Joyce did not follow the laws of football, neither was he a strong ref. His "comments" about not wanting to spoil the game "may" have been wrongly influenced by adverse reaction to Howard Webb taking a tough line. Who knows with a NL ref?
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ska face |
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Everyone sitting comfortably? Calm? Have a go on this then - https://www.facebook.com/roy.charlton.14/videos/1638698116341626/I'm fewmin m8. Merely confirms my suspicion at the time that Joyce is a gutless bottle job and he's cost us. Big time. AGAIN. The ball is going in. The defender is never getting anywhere close. Puddy's deliberately handled outside his area. There's no choice to be made. He has to go.
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mariner91 |
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Jesus, it's worse than I thought, didn't realise his arm had come that far out. Saw some BR fans on their forum claim it was down by his side! Cheating barsteward.
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LongEatonMariner |
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Everyone sitting comfortably? Calm? Have a go on this then - https://www.facebook.com/roy.charlton.14/videos/1638698116341626/I'm fewmin m8. Merely confirms my suspicion at the time that Joyce is a gutless bottle job and he's cost us. Big time. AGAIN. The ball is going in. The defender is never getting anywhere close. Puddy's deliberately handled outside his area. There's no choice to be made. He has to go.
Thanks for that Ska Face, cheered me up no end! Terrible injustice but we can affect the past, only the future. Let's not leave it until that late to get promotion next season!
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Hagrid |
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Joyce you illegitimate. if you ever have to ref at BP again, i hope you are given Hell. Furious 😡😡
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timmo |
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I wouldn't want you refereeing any games I was involved in then.
No doubt I've officiated much higher games than you've been involved with. That's the beauty of football, it's all opinions. Timmo UTM
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FishOutOfWater |
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Everyone sitting comfortably? Calm? Have a go on this then - https://www.facebook.com/roy.charlton.14/videos/1638698116341626/I'm fewmin m8. Merely confirms my suspicion at the time that Joyce is a gutless bottle job and he's cost us. Big time. AGAIN. The ball is going in. The defender is never getting anywhere close. Puddy's deliberately handled outside his area. There's no choice to be made. He has to go.
I'm trying to remember if Joyce consulted his linesman or not - that footage doesn't really make it clear but it should have been something for discussion imho Joyce was way behind play when the incident occurred but the assistant was more or less in line with things and he flagged immediately he saw Puddy stick out his hand Standing where he was, he might well have had a good view on the trajectory of Palmers attempt...maybe it would have gone in, maybe it wouldn't have done but without doubt it was headed towards an open goal The wind or spin might have meant it went wide but looking at the footage no defender would probably have got back so it all hinges on the ball being deliberately handled by Puddy To my mind, there's no question that it was a goal scoring opportunity and as such "deserved" a red but Joyce seems arbitrarily to have chosen to interpret the situation and the occasion as one and IF what Palmer says he said to him, that he didn't want to spoil the game, he certainly managed to spoil the outcome of our 49 game season
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Chrisblor |
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While Ross Joyce is an absolute male masturbator, I'm not sure posting his e-mail address and phone number (even if they may be in the public domain) is a good idea. If he suddently receives a load of abusive messages it's not going to reflect well on us.
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ginnywings |
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While Ross Joyce is an absolute male masturbator, I'm not sure posting his e-mail address and phone number (even if they may be in the public domain) is a good idea. If he suddently receives a load of abusive messages it's not going to reflect well on us.
Agreed. Take it on the chin and move on. I hope he doesn't come back to BP for a long time as i fear for him if he does.
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Les Brechin |
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There's no point dwelling on things. However unfair it seems it's happened and that's the end of it and however long we keep moaning about things, they're not going to order the game to be replayed are they, so lets just move on. Hopefully all the players offered new contracts will sign them and we go again next season. I'm just a little bit concerned that Pearson and Nsiala may have alerted some League 2 clubs to them after their performances last Sunday.
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headingly_mariner |
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While Ross Joyce is an absolute male masturbator, I'm not sure posting his e-mail address and phone number (even if they may be in the public domain) is a good idea. If he suddently receives a load of abusive messages it's not going to reflect well on us.
probably right, deleted!
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Abdul19 |
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Congratulations! You have been promoted to refereeing in the Vanarama Conference. Your fixture list for the coming season will be with you in 4 weeks.
4 weeks?! I think you're giving the bloke in his shed a bit too much credit there!
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topuphere666 |
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No doubt I've officiated much higher games than you've been involved with.
That's the beauty of football, it's all opinions.
Timmo UTM
J Willy waving at its finest.
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Theimperialcoroner |
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My dads bigger than your Dad.
Talking of willy waving, as a consequence of my own reffing career, I've seen David Platt naked.
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ska face |
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