4-3-3. Is it working?

We've tried and tried and we cannot crack 4-3-3 at home. The midfielders do not push on in a three, we are constantly outnumbered (How often are we 5 defenders v 2 forwards, or 4 v 1?). Our supposed inside forwards are not forwards at all, they are part of the midfield five despite PH claiming we are lining up in a 4-3-3. They don't support Lenny, with the exception of Nathan Arnold who it seems naturally pushes on and give support to the poor LJL who looks so desperate for help.

We have three central midfileders, none aside from Craig Disley want to break forward past the oppositions defence which means our forward (s) are so isolated. At home, or depending on the circumstances and the opposition away, the three central midfielders should have one sitting, two going forward and supporting (or two sitting and one pushing on if needed). Leave it to the three or Disley to speak to each other and manage the game but they aren't doing it. 4-3-3 isn't easy, but we are getting it so wrong. Kidderminster matched us for numbers, they looked miles ahead and they were scratching around for a team. It isn't good enough, Hurst needs to commit to a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3. But we are not getting 4-3-3 right and we are running out of time.

I'd welcome views, but I see our problems pretty much as simple as this, certainly at home where we need to win almost all, and most away to catch Barnet. Get that midfield three to support, two at a time when they can, one when circumstances dictate. Much of this is natural, which worries me as aside from 33 year old Diz who won't be playing three games a week, there isn't an instinct to push on.

All down to Hurst. Formations mean intercourse all if the players have a negative mindset ingrained by the boring negative manager.

Hurst's mantra is "defence is the best form of defence"

He has the charisma of a plank of wood.

Bring on the red crosses. I'll be so hurt by them.

No it's not working because it's 4-1-4-1

It worked well V's Halifax but wasnt working yesterday . We should have gone 442 after 10 mins  and we would have got something from the game . Kiddy didnt come to park the bus and hit us on the break , they came to Win the game .We wernt prepared for that and we lost the game .............................

Don't know, we play 451 not 433. Two up top at home please PH.

we dont paly 4 at the back, when Toto the Clown is picked, he's usually awol, or asleep

How many teams in this division play 4-4-2?

Does Hurst know what system suits his players ? I doubt it  . Hurst doesn't so the players go out confused , as confused as us fans trying to work out whats happenjng . Lenny up front ain't workjng , no support from a silent midfield , no leader on the pitch , balls put through gaps to where our players should be , if and it's a big if , we do put a decent cross in there isn't anyone to do anything with it .
Simple game , made confusing by Hurst . Done good and proper by part timers  , doing things simple . What did Hurst learn ? Very little and he didn't like being booed .   Tuesday big big game , my interest level at an all time low .

[quote=2]How many teams in this division play 4-4-2?[/quot

Whatever they do , Dover , Southport , Altringham Kidderminster , they do it far better than us . They are part time we are full time . They all appear to have a good midfield , they all have one stand out midfielder , we don't . They all have managers with the ability to change systems during the game , we don't .  We are getting out played out thought too often to be considered promotion material .
Second in this division , false , mid table 8th or 9th , at best .

Quoted from DocTower

[quote=2]How many teams in this division play 4-4-2?[/quot

Whatever they do , Dover , Southport , Altringham Kidderminster , they do it far better than us . They are part time we are full time . They all appear to have a good midfield , they all have one stand out midfielder , we don't . They all have managers with the ability to change systems during the game , we don't .  We are getting out played out thought too often to be considered promotion material .
Second in this division , false , mid table 8th or 9th , at best .

If they are better then us how come we are second and most of them are in the bottom half?

I dont think it matters what formation we play, Plan A will always be hoof the ball up to Lenny, and there is never a Plan B

Up until yesterday the formation, whatever it is had gained 16 points from 18. Yesterday the wheels came off and we could not recover. Having said that, at home something is not right, and I feel we can manage without anyone in the holding role at least to start with as we should always look to take the game to the opposition. By all means put one on later to help see the game out. At home if want to play 3 in midfield they should all be more attack minded  to get forward and support the front three and at least 1 should break into the box. Currently my  front 3 would be Brown, Clay and Disley and Ihope they start onTues.

Away from home a 451 can be very effective as it's built for the counter attack against home teams who are supposed to be pushing on.

At home it doesn't work because the emphasis is on us to attack. We don't play the system right. You must play it as a 433 with the 2 wide players playing high up looking to get into the space behind their full back and centre half which pulls there defence apart. You also need to get midfielders making runs past your centre forward, not all at once and needs to be recognised by the midfielder when to go.

Yesterday Nielson kept drifting inside with and without the ball, he may look effective going past players that way but he's not hurting anyone and kiddi knew that and where quite prepared to let him do it. Arnold plays the system well at times but not often enough.

I can't remember Pell or Brown getting anywhere near John Lewis yesterday never mind beyond him. Not good enough on their part? Or tactical instructions? Not sure.

433 could work at this level, but we clearly don't know how to play it when the emphasis is on us to attack. Therefore it has to be 442 on Tuesday.  

Quoted from ginnywings

All down to Hurst. Formations mean intercourse all if the players have a negative mindset ingrained by the boring negative manager.

Hurst's mantra is "defence is the best form of defence"

He has the charisma of a plank of wood.

Bring on the red crosses. I'll be so hurt by them.

Nail on head,

We will never see an attacking Town while Hurst is in charge,

I made the long trip up from Suffolk yesterday,

It will be a long time before I make that trip again,

BUT

I will always love my club and pop up the road to see them when they are down south,

Hurst will you please tell me why I should spend 13 hours away from home to watch that rubbish ?

Its not the players its the way you have got them playing.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Nail on head,

We will never see an attacking Town while Hurst is in charge,

I made the long trip up from Suffolk yesterday,

It will be a long time before I make that trip again,

BUT

I will always love my club and pop up the road to see them when they are down south,

Hurst will you please tell me why I should spend 13 hours away from home to watch that rubbish ?

Its not the players its the way you have got them playing.

Oh dear, I honestly think he got the selection wrong yesterday, but that happens, the fact you had a 13hr round trip to witness our worst performance of the season doesn't make the situation more serious, it just means you've been unlucky. We are 2nd in the league and still in with a shout. Couple of wins and you'll be banging on about how we will win the league.

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Oh dear, I honestly think he got the selection wrong yesterday, but that happens, the fact you had a 13hr round trip to witness our worst performance of the season doesn't make the situation more serious, it just means you've been unlucky. We are 2nd in the league and still in with a shout. Couple of wins and you'll be banging on about how we will win the league.

God I hope you are right, Tuesday will be a real test if we perform like yesterday, I really can`t see the advantage of Pell and Parsley over Paddy and Clay as midfield players

What I didn't understand about yesterdays setup was if Parslow was the holding mid-fielder then he should have been the link between the two centre-backs and the mid-field. Not once did I see him make himself available when either of our two centre-backs was in possession. More often than not it was Brown coming back so Parslow in effect had no role to play.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Nail on head,

We will never see an attacking Town while Hurst is in charge,

I made the long trip up from Suffolk yesterday,

It will be a long time before I make that trip again,

BUT

I will always love my club and pop up the road to see them when they are down south,

Hurst will you please tell me why I should spend 13 hours away from home to watch that rubbish ?

Its not the players its the way you have got them playing.

That question is easy to answer Pete...Steels fish and chips!  

Yes and no, personally I'd like to see us go back 4-4-2


Nielson   Clay   Brown   Arnold

              LJL   Pittman

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Oh dear, I honestly think he got the selection wrong yesterday, but that happens, the fact you had a 13hr round trip to witness our worst performance of the season doesn't make the situation more serious, it just means you've been unlucky. We are 2nd in the league and still in with a shout. Couple of wins and you'll be banging on about how we will win the league.

Was it our worst performance though? Apart from the result, the Halifax game wasn't great. Oxford murdered us. I also give you Southport and Altrincham in the recent past and another couple of bore draws at the start of the season. We had a holding midfielder whose natural inclination is as a defender, yet they had unmarked players in forward positions on a few occasions, two of which led to goals for them.

Fair enough playing that away from home but we should be  more attacking at home, especially against a side in recent turmoil like Kiddy.

Quoted from GrimRob

If they are better then us how come we are second and most of them are in the bottom half?

how did we do against them????? good point dock tower.

Quoted from GrimRob

If they are better then us how come we are second and most of them are in the bottom half?

Using the league table as a guide? Ridiculous idea!

Quoted from ginnywings

Was it our worst performance though? Apart from the result, the Halifax game wasn't great. Oxford murdered us. I also give you Southport and Altrincham in the recent past and another couple of bore draws at the start of the season. We had a holding midfielder whose natural inclination is as a defender, yet they had unmarked players in forward positions on a few occasions, two of which led to goals for them.

Fair enough playing that away from home but we should be  more attacking at home, especially against a side in recent turmoil like Kiddy.

Yes I really think it was, we had so many attacking options but were set up too conservatively, we played really well 1st half against Halifax and we were unlucky against Altrincham I thought. We've struggled at home but our away form has been amazing, I do think he has to differ in his approach at home but I reckon he will figure that out. Defensively we are usually sound and tough to beat, I'd like to see clay, Disley and brown as the midfield when we are at home and Pittman added to a front three. The problem with Oxford was that he went for a line up that was too attacking, it's about finding that balance.

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Yes I really think it was, we had so many attacking options but were set up too conservatively, we played really well 1st half against Halifax and we were unlucky against Altrincham I thought. We've struggled at home but our away form has been amazing, I do think he has to differ in his approach at home but I reckon he will figure that out. Defensively we are usually sound and tough to beat, I'd like to see clay, Disley and brown as the midfield when we are at home and Pittman added to a front three. The problem with Oxford was that he went for a line up that was too attacking, it's about finding that balance.

Defensively we are not that good, all these 1-0 wins have come from opposing teams missing a sitter against us week in and week out, eg Halifax, Kiddy away, Wrexham away, draws that would of been defeats eg last min pen for Dover, then Altrincham and Dartford away.
Dont expect us to to outplay any team much this season with negative tactics and hope the other team dont score.

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Oh dear, I honestly think he got the selection wrong yesterday, but that happens, the fact you had a 13hr round trip to witness our worst performance of the season doesn't make the situation more serious, it just means you've been unlucky. We are 2nd in the league and still in with a shout. Couple of wins and you'll be banging on about how we will win the league.

We were not very good at Dartford or Braintree either,

I think it will take more than a couple of wins to change my mind now,

Too many disappointments.

I have said before we have the players but not the right system,

Only one man can put that right,

But will he ?

Quoted from Madeleymariner

Defensively we are not that good, all these 1-0 wins have come from opposing teams missing a sitter against us week in and week out, eg Halifax, Kiddy away, Wrexham away, draws that would of been defeats eg last min pen for Dover, then Altrincham and Dartford away.
Dont expect us to to outplay any team much this season with negative tactics and hope the other team dont score.

Do we not have the best defence in the league???

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Do we not have the best defence in the league???

Can`t argue with that although a neutral would find it hard to believe watching their first goal  

Quoted from jimgtfc

Away from home a 451 can be very effective as it's built for the counter attack against home teams who are supposed to be pushing on.

At home it doesn't work because the emphasis is on us to attack. We don't play the system right. You must play it as a 433 with the 2 wide players playing high up looking to get into the space behind their full back and centre half which pulls there defence apart. You also need to get midfielders making runs past your centre forward, not all at once and needs to be recognised by the midfielder when to go.

Yesterday Nielson kept drifting inside with and without the ball, he may look effective going past players that way but he's not hurting anyone and kiddi knew that and where quite prepared to let him do it. Arnold plays the system well at times but not often enough.

I can't remember Pell or Brown getting anywhere near John Lewis yesterday never mind beyond him. Not good enough on their part? Or tactical instructions? Not sure.

433 could work at this level, but we clearly don't know how to play it when the emphasis is on us to attack. Therefore it has to be 442 on Tuesday.  

Jim, I may have disagreed with you over Thomas last night but this post is spot on IMO.
The bit about getting midfielders beyond strikers is the key.
I know Alfreton were poor but Craig clay made some great runs from deep getting beyond the front men AND their defence as did Nielson in that game.

No idea why we haven't done it much since or, if I am honest, why Clay has found himself on the bench?

Someone should point out to hurst that we are not playing away when we are at blundell park just because it is in cleethorpes and not in grimsby

Quoted from BIGChris

Jim, I may have disagreed with you over Thomas last night but this post is spot on IMO.
The bit about getting midfielders beyond strikers is the key.
I know Alfreton were poor but Craig clay made some great runs from deep getting beyond the front men AND their defence as did Nielson in that game.

No idea why we haven't done it much since or, if I am honest, why Clay has found himself on the bench?

Completely agree with this, I think for a spell before he got injured he really made us tick and drove us forward from the middle of the park. I have a feeling that Hurst likes his loan players to play but I think Pell has really let us down last two games and that Clay is the better player.  

Quoted from Garth

Can`t argue with that although a neutral would find it hard to believe watching their first goal  

True but that is a rarity. We have the best defence in the league.

Quoted from GrimRob

If they are better then us how come we are second and most of them are in the bottom half?

Question should be , why the hell do they make us look so bad and inept at playing what is supposed to be a simple game . We are allegedly a quality team playing at home .   The teams mentioned played better football , always look as though they were capable of getting a goal . If a small group are happy to put up with negative displays  accept and say nothing fare enough . Yesterday has made the minds up of many not to bother on Tuesday night .
On that display we shouldn't be 2nd .  Honest opinion  . Where will we be at the end of the season ? Just haven't a clue . Thing is displays like yesterday , well a little better , are not unusual anymore .

If you play 4-3-3 with Pittman out wide or Neilson in behind in a diamond and Disley and Brown in midfiedl we should score more goals, just look at the Torquat game.

You mean 4-5-1 ?

Coz it aint a 4-3-3 as much as paul likes to convince himself.