Crawling back into woodwork

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Sorry, but if you don't know the answer to that after the all that has happened over the last few years, then nothing I or anyone else can say will convince you.

We would have to agree to differ.

Perhaps but that just seems like a cop out because there isn't a reasonable explanation behind it. If you have the biggest budget in the league then you should be expected to win it, sadly money talks more than anything else in football these days. I'm not for a second doubting that we don't have one of the bigger budgets, probably top 5 or top 3. But it is definitely not the biggest. So if we make the play offs this season and show continued improvement from last season then why is that a failure? If you don't have the biggest budget then continuity is your best bet at getting to the level where you'll win promotion and as long as you keep getting better then eventually it will happen (not suggesting this will certainly be the case this season, we don't know just yet).

Hypothetical situation but let's say we are pipped to 1st place by FGR, who have a much bigger budget than us (somebody reckoned just one of their strikers was on about £3500 a week!) but have played well all season and are clearly one of the two best teams in the league. We then make it to the play off final and play Bristol Rovers (another team with a bigger budget) but lose to them due to a bad refereeing decision or something equally unfortunate that can happen in one off games. Would that make the whole entire season a failure?

Quoted from mariner2000 --

There's only one thing that will now change my mind and that is promotion.  Performances are still not where they should be.  But yet again
we'll sit and accept him blaming injuries etc., nothing to do with poor tactics.
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Quoted from barralad---

Chaos!!!!! Here's another unhappy chappie....
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Or someone that perhaps wasn't at the game yesterday. Not heard anyone from management complaining we only won by 3-0 due to injuries.I was at the game and IMO the tactics for yesterdays game were spot on.UTM. same again on tuesday please.

Quoted from mariner91

Perhaps but that just seems like a cop out because there isn't a reasonable explanation behind it. If you have the biggest budget in the league then you should be expected to win it, sadly money talks more than anything else in football these days. I'm not for a second doubting that we don't have one of the bigger budgets, probably top 5 or top 3. But it is definitely not the biggest. So if we make the play offs this season and show continued improvement from last season then why is that a failure? If you don't have the biggest budget then continuity is your best bet at getting to the level where you'll win promotion and as long as you keep getting better then eventually it will happen (not suggesting this will certainly be the case this season, we don't know just yet).

Hypothetical situation but let's say we are pipped to 1st place by FGR, who have a much bigger budget than us (somebody reckoned just one of their strikers was on about £3500 a week!) but have played well all season and are clearly one of the two best teams in the league. We then make it to the play off final and play Bristol Rovers (another team with a bigger budget) but lose to them due to a bad refereeing decision or something equally unfortunate that can happen in one off games. Would that make the whole entire season a failure?

OR

If our captain kicks out at one of their players and gets sent off,                                                                                     rooneylike

Leaving us to play with 10 men,

Oh here we go again, posters that are more happy that they 'got it right' this week rather than the fact we won a game.

I think you'll find the people that voice concerns over the manager do it because they care about the club. I can't quite grasp how you think anybody would complain about something they didn't give a shite about. The football club is a huge part of many peoples lives on this board, we wouldn't travel the country watching them if it didn't. So why shouldn't we show some passion and voice concerns when we don't feel it's going to plan.

I personally don't think Hurst will take us up. Who are you or anybody else to say I cannot express that opinion? I'm not saying it to have a moan, I'm expressing my opinion on a forum, it's what it's here for. I personally don't believe Hurst will not try and tinker with the team on Tuesday, and that is why if we carry on in the same vein as we have done this season, we won't get promoted. We have the players, Hurst can take huge credit for that but when your manager is destroying players confidence left right and center and playing players because they'll 'stop the opposition' instead of concentrating on getting them to try and stop us then you have to start asking questions.

Who honestly believes Ross Hannah will definitely start on Tuesday, or Disley will definitely not stroll back into the side on Tuesday? You can't guarantee a single thing with Hurst in charge.

Our record this season looks like this;

DDDWWLWLLDWW

Which is about as consistent as the team selections.

I would like him to start with the same eleven winners on Tuesday and see how it goes, but now we have Arnold, and LJL fit again he may decide to give them a start in place of Oates and Hannah with Paddy and Disley playing some part later

Quoted from mariner91

Perhaps but that just seems like a cop out because there isn't a reasonable explanation behind it. If you have the biggest budget in the league then you should be expected to win it, sadly money talks more than anything else in football these days. I'm not for a second doubting that we don't have one of the bigger budgets, probably top 5 or top 3. But it is definitely not the biggest. So if we make the play offs this season and show continued improvement from last season then why is that a failure? If you don't have the biggest budget then continuity is your best bet at getting to the level where you'll win promotion and as long as you keep getting better then eventually it will happen (not suggesting this will certainly be the case this season, we don't know just yet).

Hypothetical situation but let's say we are pipped to 1st place by FGR, who have a much bigger budget than us (somebody reckoned just one of their strikers was on about £3500 a week!) but have played well all season and are clearly one of the two best teams in the league. We then make it to the play off final and play Bristol Rovers (another team with a bigger budget) but lose to them due to a bad refereeing decision or something equally unfortunate that can happen in one off games. Would that make the whole entire season a failure?

If my aunt had testicles she'd be my uncle.

It would be sad, it would be unlucky, it would be unfair, it would be gut-wrenching but yes, it would be a self-evident failure.

The facts are quite simple. If you accept that each season we have about a 1 in 5 chance of getting promoted with the quality of players and budget we have, and this is more or less what the bookies think, that means in any one season we have about a 20% chance of going up. If you do the maths then after 5 seasons we have a 33% chance of NOT getting promoted in any of them. After 10 years it's down to 11%. As long as we keep finishing near the top the chances are we eventually go back up. Obviously it helps not having clubs like Luton and Bristol Rovers in the division who are quite a bit bigger than us, then the odds improve in our favour. If we waste money sacking managers because the odds are stacked against them then it means we have less money to spend on players, so the odds move against us.

The problem is Rob, I don't think tinkering with selections and playing to stop teams playing rather than playing to your own strengths is increasing those so called odds.

Yesterdays result and other good results this season haven't been replicated due to massive managerial inconsistencies IMO. Though after 46 games my opinion could well be proven wrong, it'd be nice if we could all celebrate that potential moment together though and not start threads like this one.

Quoted from GrimRob

The facts are quite simple. If you accept that each season we have about a 1 in 5 chance of getting promoted with the quality of players and budget we have, and this is more or less what the bookies think, that means in any one season we have about a 20% chance of going up. If you do the maths then after 5 seasons we have a 33% chance of NOT getting promoted in any of them. After 10 years it's down to 11%. As long as we keep finishing near the top the chances are we eventually go back up. Obviously it helps not having clubs like Luton and Bristol Rovers in the division who are quite a bit bigger than us, then the odds improve in our favour. If we waste money sacking managers because the odds are stacked against them then it means we have less money to spend on players, so the odds move against us.

That's all presuming nothing else changes Rob. Each season we stay in the division support dwindles. Budgets dwindle. the manager's job gets harder. If we had a budget MUCH bigger than anyone else eventually we should get promoted - but we'd need attendances like Bristol Rovers or Luton, or a sugar daddy with the resources of the Windmill Guy at FGR.

As the budget dwindles the manager needs to be really talented and probably luckier too. Hurst hasn't demonstrated he is the former and his apologists would argue he hasn't had the luck either. What was it Napoleon said about giving him lucky generals?

Quoted from 120797

Just personally what I'd like is for the doubters to have a little self reflection (just for a change !) and think twice before making the same old arguments (some ridiculous) every time we don't win in the future.
And when we do, not to ramp up the pressure even further.

It's not like there aren't plenty of examples where doubts have been raised and we've bounced back under Hurst.

Course if people simply want to be proved right that "I knew Hurst wouldn't do it", then it's a different story.
pontoonlew seems to care more about 80sglory claiming he was right (where and about what I'm not sure !) than his own team winning.
Can't get more toxic than that...


Inevitably there's more always more discussion when things aren't working than when they are.
It's not that fans shouldn't complain or criticize per se.
More that it becomes a toxic habit that is often repeated until it bears little resemblence to reality.
It's my impression that as a club, we often seem to win when gates are down.
Co-incidence ?


It's a fair point.
But for me it's more a case of how it might have been "mistaken" to complain in the first place.
Not that I expect anyone to ever be right by any means !
But after 50+ moans that are still yet to be proven correct, I'd expect a little soul searching next time round.

To be fair there wasn't a lot of complaining after Aldershot.
Although equally, we'd just won 6-1 and 7-0 and it didn't last very long after that..
I hope the OP agrees with me when I say I'd loved to be proved wrong the next time it happens.

What makes you think you know how self-reflective other people you don't know or probably haven't met are? Do you have special powers?

Same old ridiculous arguments? Soul-searching? I think you need to read Matthew 7:5 my friend.

"Plenty" of evidence of us bouncing back after a defeat? Well if that's true it just shows we've had plenty of defeats!

"But after 50+ moans that are still yet to be proven correct".  Err, we're still in this division, mid-table. I'd say the folk who think we are doing well are yet to be proven correct.