Finally justice for the hillsborough victims

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Like I said earlier - some people don't read and some people only want to read what they want to read. Of course there are thousands of documents. There have been inquiries on inquiries and statements on statements and records on records - all on paper.

But - the biggest but of all - there are no statements from those late comer fans who created the crush. There are statements about road works, traffic jams and late coaches but no statements about behaviour from the other fans outside the ground who arrived late from the pub. They will never, ever admit to that because they daren't. They are sh1t scared of admitting that any Liverpool person might just have been a teeny weeny little bit naughty.

So we will never get all the pieces of this jigsaw together if we have an inquiry every year for the next decade.

Ive met a few people that was there that day over the years ,one Liverpool fan and 3 Forest.
The Liverpool fan I worked with would never talk about it and never went to a game again.
Two of the Forest fans I know were probably what you would call '' Lads '' or ''thugs ' around that time ,they both told me how they was fighting with Liverpool fans before the game and they reckon there was nearly trouble on the pitch during until it became obvious what was really unfolding.
One of them has also never gone to a game since ,he said he had a lot of guilt about that day and what they was getting up to.
The other a mate of mine from Mansfield who I only spoke to the other day still maintained that there was a lot of scousers looking for aggro that day and he knows because he was also fighting with them.
Now look at it like this ,anyone that went to football games in the late 80s will tell you that at any big game there was trouble,this was even the same at town games around that time with a tenth of the crowds what was there that day .
Now of course the Police should have been able to do a better job than they did,of course the stadium should have been in a better condition and had better stewarding but some of the Liverpool fans there that day have to accept a little blame.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

But - the biggest but of all - there are no statements from those late comer fans who created the crush. There are statements about road works, traffic jams and late coaches but no statements about behaviour from the other fans outside the ground who arrived late from the pub. They will never, ever admit to that because they daren't. They are sh1t scared of admitting that any Liverpool person might just have been a teeny weeny little bit naughty.

So we will never get all the pieces of this jigsaw together if we have an inquiry every year for the next decade.

Great post - this is a vital area which the majority still seek to overlook

Everyone is concentrating on how the 96 victims of the tragedy have been cleared of blame - who on earth thought it was their own fault anyway FFS? Certainly no one I have ever spoken to and a cover-up of any of the incidents / actions that day is deplorable but

The fact that the police, with no malice whatsoever, inadvertently caused the disaster by opening the gate to the centre pen has been known and admitted by the police for many many years - it's not new in any way - it was obvious (and agreed by the police) years ago

Why the poor copper in charge at that end made that tragic decision and opened the gate is also quite clear but every Liverpool fan still chooses to bury his / her head in the sand, sweep it under the carpet and try to divert attention away from the reason which was the late arrival of a large number of fans, many drunk, many without tickets and some no doubt with the red mists coming down as kick off time approached all trying to get in via turnstiles thereby causing the police to open the gate believing it might help avoid possible injuries

2000 fans outside the exit gates trying to get in at about 14.55, i suppose they all left the pub together and then tried to get in ..... They obviously didn't it was bulding up from about 14.15 and the cops allowed the crowd to build up then blamed them for turning up late, all because of lazy police work.

I've no idea why people still persist with this idea that there were hoardes of drunk up, ticketless Liverpool fans trying to get through the gates, standing at the back of the crowd - heaving their way in, pushing, shoving, kicking, punching...

Taylor estimated in his report that the capacity of the Leppings Lane end was 10,100. From the best estimate they could get from the turnstile readings, and counting every head on photographic and video evidence, they estimated there were 9,700 fans in attendance. So this dispells the myth of the crush being caused by ticketless fans - over and above the safe ticket allocation - causing the crush.

I suggest those of you still insistent on blaming these fans take a look at this video:

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html

Anyone who's ever been to a big gig knows that it doesn't take hundreds of people to be pushing and shoving at the back of a crowd to cause a massive build-up of pressure. One person walks up behind you, you take a step forward. The person in front of you follows suit. Then again. Again. At the back, you could be stood merely brushing up against the person in front of you, but at the front, the effect is a huge crush. That's what happened outside the ground - it's clear for anyone to see in the footage.

With around 15 minutes to kick off, there were still around 5000 people stood outside the Leppings Lane gates - Taylor estimated it would have taken until 3:40 for this backlog to be cleared through the aged turnstiles. The people who got in through the gate would have been stood there for a long time, there was a large build up of fans, bordering on unmanageable, from around 2:15. The people who entered through Gate C would have been stood there for a considerable length of time, so the late comers, who you are still desperately trying to pin blame on, were not to blame.

The biggest in a series of monumental intercourse-ups was the decision not to close off the tunnel to the two central pens which were already 'overfull'. An official response from SYP following the incident stated that fans were expected "to find their level", like water in a bath, once inside the ground. In other words, this meant that they couldn't give a fiddler's intercourse what happened to the fans inside the ground - and look what happened.

Had Liverpool fans been fighting on the day? Probably, but that is completely and utterly irrelevant with regards to the deaths caused by the crush. Not quite sure why Prestwich Mariner brought up the issue of Heysel, possibly because he's an idiot, but maybe the reason that Liverpool fans weren't calling for 'justice' back then may be due to the fact 14 Liverpool fans were deported, convicted and jailed at the time. Roundball...'s comments about the whole inquiry being a set up just to keep the Liverpool fans quiet is just on an entirely new level of stupidity. Over a million people marched on London to protest against an illegal war in the middle-east. They did it anyway and are still blowing brown people to dust on a daily basis - they don't give a toss about a few Liverpool fans.

It's about time some of you let go of your prejudices and just grew up. People smarter than you, with more experience than you, who do this type of thing as a job and have done for the majority of their lives, who know what they're talking about, have stated that the Liverpool fans are not to blame. Deal with it.

Quoted from ska face

I've no idea why people still persist with this idea that there were hoardes of drunk up, ticketless Liverpool fans trying to get through the gates, standing at the back of the crowd - heaving their way in, pushing, shoving, kicking, punching...

Taylor estimated in his report that the capacity of the Leppings Lane end was 10,100. From the best estimate they could get from the turnstile readings, and counting every head on photographic and video evidence, they estimated there were 9,700 fans in attendance. So this dispells the myth of the crush being caused by ticketless fans - over and above the safe ticket allocation - causing the crush.

I suggest those of you still insistent on blaming these fans take a look at this video:

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html

Anyone who's ever been to a big gig knows that it doesn't take hundreds of people to be pushing and shoving at the back of a crowd to cause a massive build-up of pressure. One person walks up behind you, you take a step forward. The person in front of you follows suit. Then again. Again. At the back, you could be stood merely brushing up against the person in front of you, but at the front, the effect is a huge crush. That's what happened outside the ground - it's clear for anyone to see in the footage.

With around 15 minutes to kick off, there were still around 5000 people stood outside the Leppings Lane gates - Taylor estimated it would have taken until 3:40 for this backlog to be cleared through the aged turnstiles. The people who got in through the gate would have been stood there for a long time, there was a large build up of fans, bordering on unmanageable, from around 2:15. The people who entered through Gate C would have been stood there for a considerable length of time, so the late comers, who you are still desperately trying to pin blame on, were not to blame.

The biggest in a series of monumental intercourse-ups was the decision not to close off the tunnel to the two central pens which were already 'overfull'. An official response from SYP following the incident stated that fans were expected "to find their level", like water in a bath, once inside the ground. In other words, this meant that they couldn't give a fiddler's intercourse what happened to the fans inside the ground - and look what happened.

Had Liverpool fans been fighting on the day? Probably, but that is completely and utterly irrelevant with regards to the deaths caused by the crush. Not quite sure why Prestwich Mariner brought up the issue of Heysel, possibly because he's an idiot, but maybe the reason that Liverpool fans weren't calling for 'justice' back then may be due to the fact 14 Liverpool fans were deported, convicted and jailed at the time. Roundball...'s comments about the whole inquiry being a set up just to keep the Liverpool fans quiet is just on an entirely new level of stupidity. Over a million people marched on London to protest against an illegal war in the middle-east. They did it anyway and are still blowing brown people to dust on a daily basis - they don't give a toss about a few Liverpool fans.

It's about time some of you let go of your prejudices and just grew up. People smarter than you, with more experience than you, who do this type of thing as a job and have done for the majority of their lives, who know what they're talking about, have stated that the Liverpool fans are not to blame. Deal with it.

An excellent post, well thought out and articulated. Unfortunately it won't resonate with those who still have their own agendas.

Quoted from bladerunnner

i come on here for (sometimes heated) debates..................you just want to abuse people whose opinion differs to yours= you=nazi.

Ha ha. .   Godwin's law of messageboards. .  a bit premature pmsl!

I ridiculed your post, I made you look a pill0ck. . . I didn't accuse you of mass genocide!

Daftcunt!

Quoted from grimps

Now of course the Police should have been able to do a better job than they did,of course the stadium should have been in a better condition and had better stewarding but some of the Liverpool fans there that day have to accept a little blame.

Do Leeds fans have to take the blame for 1987 ? And Spurs fans for '81 ? What some people don't seem to take in is the sheer unsuitability of Hillborough for this type of game. It was a deathtrap and it was simply a matter of time before this tragedy happened. After 1981 Hillsborough was not chosen again for another 6 years. When it was there was even more fencing, adding extra dangerous pens. After Leeds narrowly averted disaster 1987 it was again modified, this time into more pens.

Have a read here http://thehillsboroughdisaster.....try-1987-semi-final/
and see just how close tragedy was.
Before that, 1981 http://thehillsboroughdisaster.....cup-semi-final-1981/

Shocking and frightening stories. But in the end it's obvious the ground should have been blacklisted and never used for cup games such as this.
For those who don't read up on this stuff watch the video from 1981. Familiar and chilling scenes scenes but fans alive, pitchside, thanks to proper policing on that day.

Quoted from ska face

I've no idea why people still persist with this idea that there were hoardes of drunk up, ticketless Liverpool fans trying to get through the gates, standing at the back of the crowd - heaving their way in, pushing, shoving, kicking, punching...

Taylor estimated in his report that the capacity of the Leppings Lane end was 10,100. From the best estimate they could get from the turnstile readings, and counting every head on photographic and video evidence, they estimated there were 9,700 fans in attendance. So this dispells the myth of the crush being caused by ticketless fans - over and above the safe ticket allocation - causing the crush.

I suggest those of you still insistent on blaming these fans take a look at this video:

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html

Anyone who's ever been to a big gig knows that it doesn't take hundreds of people to be pushing and shoving at the back of a crowd to cause a massive build-up of pressure. One person walks up behind you, you take a step forward. The person in front of you follows suit. Then again. Again. At the back, you could be stood merely brushing up against the person in front of you, but at the front, the effect is a huge crush. That's what happened outside the ground - it's clear for anyone to see in the footage.

With around 15 minutes to kick off, there were still around 5000 people stood outside the Leppings Lane gates - Taylor estimated it would have taken until 3:40 for this backlog to be cleared through the aged turnstiles. The people who got in through the gate would have been stood there for a long time, there was a large build up of fans, bordering on unmanageable, from around 2:15. The people who entered through Gate C would have been stood there for a considerable length of time, so the late comers, who you are still desperately trying to pin blame on, were not to blame.

The biggest in a series of monumental intercourse-ups was the decision not to close off the tunnel to the two central pens which were already 'overfull'. An official response from SYP following the incident stated that fans were expected "to find their level", like water in a bath, once inside the ground. In other words, this meant that they couldn't give a fiddler's intercourse what happened to the fans inside the ground - and look what happened.

Had Liverpool fans been fighting on the day? Probably, but that is completely and utterly irrelevant with regards to the deaths caused by the crush. Not quite sure why Prestwich Mariner brought up the issue of Heysel, possibly because he's an idiot, but maybe the reason that Liverpool fans weren't calling for 'justice' back then may be due to the fact 14 Liverpool fans were deported, convicted and jailed at the time. Roundball...'s comments about the whole inquiry being a set up just to keep the Liverpool fans quiet is just on an entirely new level of stupidity. Over a million people marched on London to protest against an illegal war in the middle-east. They did it anyway and are still blowing brown people to dust on a daily basis - they don't give a toss about a few Liverpool fans.

It's about time some of you let go of your prejudices and just grew up. People smarter than you, with more experience than you, who do this type of thing as a job and have done for the majority of their lives, who know what they're talking about, have stated that the Liverpool fans are not to blame. Deal with it.

I accept all the reports about mistakes and cover ups. My point is simply that there was more to it that will never be told because nobody dare open their mouths now. The pitch was queered when the Sun was so stupid. After that nobody dare say a word other than to blame the police, the club, the FA and the politicians.

As far as I know no-one has said that there were hordes of ticketless or drunk Liverpudlians. But as you say, it does not take hordes to make trouble or cause a problem. Anyone who was a crush victim in the 1970s/80s knows that the culprits were generally a small number who could and did easily cause regular fans to become a battering ram to crush the innocent. It is beyond belief that in those days there were not some idiots at Hillsborough amongst those who rushed through those gates mindless of what carnage they might make.

We shall never know the truth. There is no video that shows all of the happenings. There are no statements from those people. And nobody is ever going to tell us about it anyway.

What a load of bollox, how much evidence do you need? FFS! Starting to think certain posters might have been a policman or related to one at least. So defensive of those toss pots. I ain't going to explain anything about Hillsborough because I'm sure after reading some posts that it wouldn't make any difference at all. Some are being ignorant of the truth and evidence provided, and I think it's safe to say disrespectful, or maybe just out to whined others up, which is still disrespectful.

Quoted from Gary Haddock

What a load of bollox, how much evidence do you need? FFS! Starting to think certain posters might have been a policman or related to one at least. So defensive of those toss pots. I ain't going to explain anything about Hillsborough because I'm sure after reading some posts that it wouldn't make any difference at all. Some are being ignorant of the truth and evidence provided, and I think it's safe to say disrespectful, or maybe just out to whined others up, which is still disrespectful.

The trouble is Gary, I accept all the reports and all the things said about the police - but I know from experience that there is always more to these events than official bits of paper.

Other people only believe the bits of paper and to me that is disrespectful because they don't tell the whole story.