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Really? Why? Is it that important? A couple of years ago there weren't any clubs who bothered ironing a temporary poppy onto their shirts until the Daily Mail decided to turn the whole campaign into a mawkish witch-hunt to see who could remember the hardest. Individuals (and football clubs) should be free to choose without any pressure whether they wear a poppy or not. Nobody should be chastised for choosing not to wear one - plenty of people don't wear them and still are thankful for everything previous generations did in WW1 & WW2.

At any length, the club arranged a minute's silence on Saturday and tomorrow night's game has been designated as some sort of military themed remeberance event - so surely that's enough to satisfy even the most self righteous "EVERYONE MUST WEAR POPPIES" campaigner?

Quoted from Chrisblor

Really? Why? Is it that important? A couple of years ago there weren't any clubs who bothered ironing a temporary poppy onto their shirts until the Daily Mail decided to turn the whole campaign into a mawkish witch-hunt to see who could remember the hardest. Individuals (and football clubs) should be free to choose without any pressure whether they wear a poppy or not. Nobody should be chastised for choosing not to wear one - plenty of people don't wear them and still are thankful for everything previous generations did in WW1 & WW2.

At any length, the club arranged a minute's silence on Saturday and tomorrow night's game has been designated as some sort of military themed remeberance event - so surely that's enough to satisfy even the most self righteous "EVERYONE MUST WEAR POPPIES" campaigner?

Excellently put.

Wholly agree with those sentiments Chrisblor. Haven't worn a poppy myself for nearly thirty years for personal reasons, but always respect a minute's silence, whoever it / they may be.

Quoted from Chrisblor

Really? Why? Is it that important? A couple of years ago there weren't any clubs who bothered ironing a temporary poppy onto their shirts until the Daily Mail decided to turn the whole campaign into a mawkish witch-hunt to see who could remember the hardest. Individuals (and football clubs) should be free to choose without any pressure whether they wear a poppy or not. Nobody should be chastised for choosing not to wear one - plenty of people don't wear them and still are thankful for everything previous generations did in WW1 & WW2.

At any length, the club arranged a minute's silence on Saturday and tomorrow night's game has been designated as some sort of military themed remeberance event - so surely that's enough to satisfy even the most self righteous "EVERYONE MUST WEAR POPPIES" campaigner?

Excellent post.

On the other side of the coin,

If we had a poppy on our shirts the club could then sell the shirts after the game for the said charity,

When you see our brave lads coming home with no legs or arms,

They need all the help we can give,

Whether you believe in the war they have been in or not,

Personally I do not think we have done any good in any war since the Falklands.

Too controversial let's just stick to football

I respect every ones right to choose to wear a poppy or not, after all that's what we fight for, freedom of choice.
I personally will always wear a poppy.

I'm currently enjoying reading a well thought out and reasoned debate where all views seem to be respected.

Fishy people...is this is!!

It is nice to see.

I see the poppy as a public symbol of respect but there are many other ways for people doing their bit, many of which will be more far reaching.

I do like the unity something like wearing a poppy shows tho.

As others have said, let's appreciate the fact we are free to opt in or out of poppy wearing.

I Think it's a great idea to wear a Poppy on their shirts. A Mark of respect, not only for those that gave their lives in WW1 and WW2, but also those that have lost their lives in more current conflicts.

Many Town fans are Serving members of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, some of these who have lost comrades during these times.

It's always comforting to realise that our civilian counterparts appreciate the commitments and sacrifices from, not only our fallen heroes, but also those that spend countless months on deployed Operations.

Some people take for granted that they are priveleged to attend BP week in, week out, whilst for many Servicemen, watching commentary on the Internet is the closest they come.

Wear your Poppy with Pride!

I fully respect everyone's choice whether to wear a poppy or not but I wondered why those that choose not too arrive at that decision?
This isn't meant to be controversial or 'taking sides' I am just curious as to the reasons anyone 'refuses' to wear a poppy?

Quoted from BIGChris

I fully respect everyone's choice whether to wear a poppy or not but I wondered why those that choose not too arrive at that decision?
This isn't meant to be controversial or 'taking sides' I am just curious as to the reasons anyone 'refuses' to wear a poppy?

Well, again, without wishing to be controversial or taking sides, here's one reason that's been given (from http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/irish-footballer-james-mcclean-reveals-reasons-for-refusal-to-wear-a-poppy-9848418.html):

Quoted Text

Irish footballer James McClean said it would be a "gesture of disrespect" for him to wear a poppy as he made a controversial stand ahead of a match last night.

The Wigan Athletic midfielder, 25, refused to wear a poppy as clubs across the country marked the 100th anniversary of the First World War.

As his team-mates prepared to pull on jerseys bearing the symbol for last night's clash with Bolton, the Republic of Ireland player set out his reasons for the decision in a letter to Wigan chairman Dave Whelan.

McClean, who was a substitute for Wigan's 1-0 defeat last night, said his upbringing in Londonderry meant the poppy had "come to mean something very different" to him.

In the letter, he wrote: "I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

"I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

"I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

"I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this.

"But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

"For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

"Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

"It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people."

He went on: "I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

"I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

"I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons.

"As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation."

His statement was accepted by Wigan Athletic, who said in a statement: "This is a personal decision by James, who explained his position in a letter to Latics Chairman Dave Whelan before the two met face to face to discuss the issue this week.

"Following the meeting, Mr Whelan accepted James’ decision."

As a former serving member of the Armed Forces, I fully respect anyone's wishes to either wear or not wear a Poppy. I always have and always will, show my respect to those who have fought, died and survived all conflicts, for all sides.
I personally feel that individuals should not be forced to wear a Poppy, ie. certain Broadcasting corporations, as I feel this may be deemed oppressive.
I will also be wearing my medals to the match tomorrow to mark my respect, as requested by GTFC, although I won't be accepting a free ticket for the main stand, Ponny for me. UTM.

I don't buy this fans missing games stuff . I've done about 3 working weekends in nearly 6 years. ;)

Quoted from Tinymariner

I will also be wearing my medals to the match tomorrow to mark my respect, as requested by GTFC.

Can I borry one? Give you it back once through the turnstile.

Do the club have enough shirts for this? We run on a tight enough budget as it is though a nice gesture it might not be logistically possible. From what I know most players get two shirts for the season.

Quoted from Green27

Do the club have enough shirts for this? We run on a tight enough budget as it is though a nice gesture it might not be logistically possible. From what I know most players get two shirts for the season.

I mentioned earlier in this thread it would be a good idea to then sell the shirts for the charity,

I did not think of the cost for the club,

Maybe next year something could be organised and a sponsor found to fund the shirts for the club,

I am sure if the original shirts were put up for auction they would be a good demand for them.

Re earlier question about asking why certain people choose not to wear poppies. Mine is not complex, but it is political and hopefully thought provoking.

Douglas Haig, later Earl Haig, was the person who took the decision to send troops over the top at the Somme to their certain deaths, no doubt whilst enjoying the good life back home befitting of his class (he never went to the front line) he then did the same at Ypres and other battles. It was pure cannon fodder, working men being sent to their deaths by one of the ruling class (he was in the Bullingdon Club at Oxford)

After the war finished, perhaps in an attempt to curry national favour, he was instrumental in setting up the British Legion and then the whole poppy thing grew out of that.

It is my honest belief that anybody who is a member of the armed forces and is injured in the course of their duty should be cared for by government, after all it was them who sent them to war, and not charity. I find it callous in the extreme that UK governments of all political persuasions opt for this route.

Secondly, I believe that the poppy somehow glorifies war certainly in the way it is used by the media. As a pacifist I have no truck with that.

Thirdly, the end of the First World War, often referred to as the Great War was meant to be "The war to end all wars" but we know that meant nothing as we still have politicians who think it improves their standing in this country if they are seen to act tough with aggressors elsewhere in the world and go to war as their default option. Note though, that this doesn't happen if the aggressor is bigger than them, ie Russia. They don't go to war with nations such as Saudi Arabia where they routinely behead criminals, fund terrorists, run a brutal dictatorship, but also have oil. Hypocrisy and war go hand in hand, and that in a nutshell is why I don't wear a poppy.

Quoted from jock dock tower

Re earlier question about asking why certain people choose not to wear poppies. Mine is not complex, but it is political and hopefully thought provoking.

Douglas Haig, later Earl Haig, was the person who took the decision to send troops over the top at the Somme to their certain deaths, no doubt whilst enjoying the good life back home befitting of his class (he never went to the front line) he then did the same at Ypres and other battles. It was pure cannon fodder, working men being sent to their deaths by one of the ruling class (he was in the Bullingdon Club at Oxford)

After the war finished, perhaps in an attempt to curry national favour, he was instrumental in setting up the British Legion and then the whole poppy thing grew out of that.

It is my honest belief that anybody who is a member of the armed forces and is injured in the course of their duty should be cared for by government, after all it was them who sent them to war, and not charity. I find it callous in the extreme that UK governments of all political persuasions opt for this route.

Secondly, I believe that the poppy somehow glorifies war certainly in the way it is used by the media. As a pacifist I have no truck with that.

Thirdly, the end of the First World War, often referred to as the Great War was meant to be "The war to end all wars" but we know that meant nothing as we still have politicians who think it improves their standing in this country if they are seen to act tough with aggressors elsewhere in the world and go to war as their default option. Note though, that this doesn't happen if the aggressor is bigger than them, ie Russia. They don't go to war with nations such as Saudi Arabia where they routinely behead criminals, fund terrorists, run a brutal dictatorship, but also have oil. Hypocrisy and war go hand in hand, and that in a nutshell is why I don't wear a poppy.

If I could a post a huge amount of ticks this would be it.

Some great posts and great debating points on this thread. What have you lot done with the real Fishy?

I think this is a debate for another day.
It is great to see a debate on here with no personal attacks though!

I think we are agreeing to disagree or agree whichever is the case,,

Without the personal insults , lets keep it up.

Quoted from jock dock tower

Re earlier question about asking why certain people choose not to wear poppies. Mine is not complex, but it is political and hopefully thought provoking.

Douglas Haig, later Earl Haig, was the person who took the decision to send troops over the top at the Somme to their certain deaths, no doubt whilst enjoying the good life back home befitting of his class (he never went to the front line) he then did the same at Ypres and other battles. It was pure cannon fodder, working men being sent to their deaths by one of the ruling class (he was in the Bullingdon Club at Oxford)

After the war finished, perhaps in an attempt to curry national favour, he was instrumental in setting up the British Legion and then the whole poppy thing grew out of that.

It is my honest belief that anybody who is a member of the armed forces and is injured in the course of their duty should be cared for by government, after all it was them who sent them to war, and not charity. I find it callous in the extreme that UK governments of all political persuasions opt for this route.

Secondly, I believe that the poppy somehow glorifies war certainly in the way it is used by the media. As a pacifist I have no truck with that.

Thirdly, the end of the First World War, often referred to as the Great War was meant to be "The war to end all wars" but we know that meant nothing as we still have politicians who think it improves their standing in this country if they are seen to act tough with aggressors elsewhere in the world and go to war as their default option. Note though, that this doesn't happen if the aggressor is bigger than them, ie Russia. They don't go to war with nations such as Saudi Arabia where they routinely behead criminals, fund terrorists, run a brutal dictatorship, but also have oil. Hypocrisy and war go hand in hand, and that in a nutshell is why I don't wear a poppy.

Wow! Excellent post. As an ex-serving member of HM Forces I will always willingly make a donation to the poppy sellers in the hope that it goes towards the needy who, were either acting on the orders of the government, or their spouse was. For many of the reasons stated in the post above I will not wear a poppy. No-body benefits from war.

Quoted from jock dock tower

Douglas Haig, later Earl Haig, was the person who took the decision to send troops over the top at the Somme to their certain deaths, no doubt whilst enjoying the good life back home befitting of his class (he never went to the front line) he then did the same at Ypres and other battles. It was pure cannon fodder, working men being sent to their deaths by one of the ruling class (he was in the Bullingdon Club at Oxford)

For someone who seems passionate about equality and treating everyone on their merits you are extremely presumptuous when it comes to those who are not working class. You often seem to tar all of those in the more privileged echelons of society with the same brush. If someone did this about the working class you would be all over it. Being educated at Oxford doesn't make you a bad person just as having no qualifications doesn't.

Just an observation and apologies it is non footy. Here is some foot stuff to bring it back on track:

In 1921, Ash Lane in Southport, Merseyside and the football ground of Southport F.C. that was situated there, were both renamed as Haig Avenue in his honour.

Argentine football club Club Atlético Douglas Haig, founded in 1918, is named after Haig.

Quoted from psgmariner

For someone who seems passionate about equality and treating everyone on their merits you are extremely presumptuous when it comes to those who are not working class. You often seem to tar all of those in the more privileged echelons of society with the same brush. If someone did this about the working class you would be all over it. Being educated at Oxford doesn't make you a bad person just as having no qualifications doesn't.

Just an observation and apologies it is non footy. Here is some foot stuff to bring it back on track:

In 1921, Ash Lane in Southport, Merseyside and the football ground of Southport F.C. that was situated there, were both renamed as Haig Avenue in his honour.

Argentine football club Club Atlético Douglas Haig, founded in 1918, is named after Haig.

I happen to think, and always have done so, that class distinction is what has divided this country since time immemorial. People may have thought it gone away during the Major and Blair years, but it didn't. It's now more prevalent than ever.

Had Haig led from the front and gone over the top himself as a clarion call to the troops I'd not be able to have a go at him - but it's not just me, historians past and present have done the same. When somebody who had been a member of the Bullingdon Club - and only the creme de la creme get in there - sent hundreds of thousands of men to their deaths (against advice from the War Cabinet as well) how else do you expect it to be perceived?

Marinerz93 is sat somewhere red faced with steam coming out of his ears.

Differing views make the world go round.

For me I always wear a poppy, not in recognition of the generals but to recognise the sacrifices so many young men made in wars across the globe.

I cannot begin to imagine the horrors of 14-18 and know my father never spoke of his time in Nth Africa, and through Italy in 2nd World War.

If a small % of my donation goes to helping ex servicemen in need then that is great

Quoted from jock dock tower

I happen to think, and always have done so, that class distinction is what has divided this country since time immemorial. People may have thought it gone away during the Major and Blair years, but it didn't. It's now more prevalent than ever.

Had Haig led from the front and gone over the top himself as a clarion call to the troops I'd not be able to have a go at him - but it's not just me, historians past and present have done the same. When somebody who had been a member of the Bullingdon Club - and only the creme de la creme get in there - sent hundreds of thousands of men to their deaths (against advice from the War Cabinet as well) how else do you expect it to be perceived?

I wear a poppy out of respect to the millions that died on both sides in a foolish and futile war, my grandfather and his two brothers three out of four sons lost their life in that war, and it would not matter a jot to me who was responsible whether it was Haig or a chimpanzee running the show, my memory shared with millions of others is for the men lost and their relatives left to mourn, as for Bloody Sunday shameful as it was there were also many Bloody other weekdays that was a disgrace to both sides.
Each to there own though and it would not be a free society if we could not individually hold our own views

Quoted from LH

Marinerz93 is sat somewhere red faced with steam coming out of his ears.

No steam coming out of my ears, my thoughts are elsewhere Leon.

I’m glad that we have charities that research cures for cancer and Aids, and support those who suffer. I’m glad we have voluntary organisations that rescue those in trouble at sea. I am proud that we care for animals, orphans, ex-prisoners, retired missionaries and injured veterans. All of that is good, noble, and right.

But Remembrance, and the poppy it represents, is about something fundamentally different than charity. It is about us, as a society, still needing to decide whether to kill others if we feel it to be an awful necessity, sending young people to do that killing for us and risk themselves being killed or maimed or wounded or emotionally damaged. That is a huge burden that we carry, all of us together. Remembrance helps us to carry that burden with due care and attention, with fear and with trembling. It is absolutely not just another charity season, getting special treatment.

We should wear our poppies with pride but also trepidation and maybe even a residual glimmer of shame, grief and shock. We should wear them with hope, each of us with a determination that, as a citizen with the precious, hard-won right to vote, we will never bear our personal responsibility for peace and war lightly.

• Fr. Tim Jones is a Yorkshire priest

Everyone will have their reasons for wearing or not wearing a poppy. I will wear mine for a variety of reasons, fallen family members WWI and WWII, a couple of colleagues lost to more recent conflicts and for Sid Wheelhouse (Grimsby Captain) and other Mariners who joined, fought and died in the Great War.

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What we should all remember is about a week before the Germans did surrender they went to the British Generals and ask for terms of their surrender,

The top brass said we will decide what happens to you go back and tell your chiefs,

Before they left the Germans asked for a ceasefire until they could return with their surrender orders from their top brass,

We said NO CEASEFIRE we fight on until you return,

Many hundreds of soldiers from both sides died needlessly during that period,

It was obvious to all concerned that Germany were beaten,

BUT

Our Generals still sent young boys to their death,

I was absolutely disgusted when I read this.

Some good points on both sides.  I was in the Forces, briefly and respect the right of people to make their own choice about whether or not to wear poppies.  It's a personal thing and for many symbolises the carnage and futility of that Great War.

On Sunday, my wife and I went to the Tower of London to look at the Poppy tribute there.  Thousands of people, all backgrounds, nationalities and religions, moved round in hushed reverence, stopping to read accounts of some of the young men who died. It was all very British, solemn and understated.  A good many of them would have held similar views to jock dock tower and grimsby pete.  Lots at the other extreme, but that's the beauty of the poppy, it's a symbol we can all base our own thoughts and remembrances around; whether that's a friend who died in Afghanistan, a great great uncle butchered at the Somme, or a sense of despair at the fact we never seem to learn.

This is why I think we've traditionally got it about right in this country.  Going back to the Tower on Sunday just gone, and talking to my (American) wife about it, we compared and contrasted to the US.  Over there, Memorial and Veterans' Days, take on a totally different tone.  Much more raucous, jingoistic and fervent, with people wrapping themselves in Stars and Stripes outfits and people not sporting a garish enough flag pin being looked at with almost McCarthyite suspicion.  I'd hate to think Britain would go down that route.