Doug Tharme and Curtis Thompson have been good and necessary additions....

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/grimsby-town-tharme-and-thompson-solve-key-issues/

Stiffened the spine of the team and  Doug's throws had Newport pinned back for large chunks of the game.Not pretty but pretty effective.

Both great additions, especially Thompson. Tharme is no nonsense at the back and has definitely helped improve us. Thompson does the dirty work and he is neat on the ball too. He’s confident enough to take a midfielder or two out of the game before passing it which opens up space and is something we have been really lacking.

Probably second and third as my player of the season behind Rose of course.

Couldn't agree more. Hopefully he pick up some more gems in the summer

If both are under contract for next season, together with Rose and Vernam we have four good players to build the team around. If Artell can bring in more players of this quality we could have a very different season to look forward to.

Quoted from RonMariner

If both are under contract for next season, together with Rose and Vernam we have four good players to build the team around. If Artell can bring in more players of this quality we could have a very different season to look forward to.

agreed, add in Clifton who we know is more than good enough for this division , plus Khouri and Ainley who will be like new signings, and that's at least a third of the squad sorted

Quoted from RonMariner

If both are under contract for next season, together with Rose and Vernam we have four good players to build the team around. If Artell can bring in more players of this quality we could have a very different season to look forward to.

I have my doubts about Vernam. He's a creaking gate, he was last time and he still is. These talented players are all well and good but they're about as much use as a chocolate tea pot lying on the treatment table. I know players don't get injured deliberately but I think we have to make our own luck in his regard. Vernam is the prime example, Wilson is another. Really liked the look of him when we've got him on the pitch but that's been all too rarely.

For me, you can afford to carry one injury prone player in the hope they get a lucky season, not two or three.

I think there's a bit of a myth with Vernam and that he's injury prone.

He signed for us permanently in the summer of 18/19.

18/19 - Was involved in every match day squad bar 3.
19/20 - Involved in every match day squad bar 3 - 2 of which when he was on loan at Chorley (his loan spell coincided with that weird run of so really only uninvolved in 1 squad.  Played all but 7 minutes of his loan spell at Chorley.
20/21 - First half of the season at Burton, uninvolved in 9 squads early on.  Involved in 15 with 11 starts before he goes to Bradford.  At Valley Parade he's involved in 21 out of 22 squads. Total for the season, 10 squads where he wasn't involved.
21/22 - 14 uninvolved squads with a run of 10 consecutive missed squads at the turn of the year.  32 involved squads though.
22/23 - Lincoln.  Uninvolved in the first two squads but then involved in every single one until mid-March when he isn't involved for the final 11 games.  33 involved squads in total.

So his career history prior to coming here is just over 40 squads where he's not involved and even if they were all for injury as opposed to selection, that's 8 missed games a season.  It's hardly someone with a chronic injury record.  For a little bit of context, Danny Rose has missed 6 games this season through injury.  

I'd say Vernam is more guilty of drifting in and out of favour than as someone who's proven to be injury prone.  He's just had a crap year of it this season.  From the first minute on Saturday he showed what he's got in his locker and how much of an asset it is at this level.

Quoted from forza ivano

agreed, add in Clifton who we know is more than good enough for this division , plus Khouri and Ainley who will be like new signings, and that's at least a third of the squad sorted

Are we planning on another season at the bottom end of the league?

How about being ruthless and clear out the players that have contributed to us being where we are currently.

Amos, Maher, Glennon, Ainley, Braithwaite, Bramwell, Clifton, Gnahoua, Green, Holohan, Khan, Khouri, Eisa, Essel and Tomlinson are all out of contract (Green might have triggered another year) and predate Artell and I wouldn’t care less if we released all of them. And I’d add Hume to that list.

If we want to move forward we need to stop rewarding mediocracy.

As things stand we have 11 contracted players for next season (maybe 12 with Green).

This is a great opportunity. Why waste it by keeping the likes of Clifton, Holohan etc…

In general I agree with you Golly.  I think it's fortunate that the spine of the team (Tharme, Thompson and Rose) are the ones under contract and ones you would want to keep.  There's very little in the rest of the squad that makes me desperate to keep.

Perhaps a little harsh on the first year professionals.  I think there's an argument for keeping Clifton if we're using him as wingback and I'm keen to see a fit Ainley in a Town shirt.  But other than that, nah.   Khouri's got a few years left on his deal btw.

Agree this is both an opportunity, and the right time, to be ruthless. Personally, I’d offer Hume a contract, still think there’s a role for Clifton if we can play him alongside better players and feel we should probably offer Ainley something if only for the optics, but the rest I broadly agree with.

Worth noting though that such an opportunity is a double-edged sword; if we’re going to ring the changes then we sure as shít need to make a better job of it than we did last summer.

I don't think Hume is up to much defensively (he's crap in the air and not as quick as I'd expect from a player who has made a lot of appearances for 'big' teams in League One) and his vaunted set piece ability seems to have deserted him since he signed for us.

I suppose I'd be OK if he signed for us, but not exactly over the moon. Might do better with a better midfield in front of him, I suppose.

Quoted from Maringer

I don't think Hume is up to much defensively (he's crap in the air and not as quick as I'd expect from a player who has made a lot of appearances for 'big' teams in League One) and his vaunted set piece ability seems to have deserted him since he signed for us.

I suppose I'd be OK if he signed for us, but not exactly over the moon. Might do better with a better midfield in front of him, I suppose.

On his day Glennon is better than Hume. But Glennon is inconsistent. Hume is a solid 6 and a half L2 left-back. I think we can do better than the pair of them.

I'm seeing Hume as this years Josh Emmanuel.  

Shown glimpses of what he can do but all in nothing outstanding and definitely not someone I'd be breaking the bank to keep.  I definitely think we can and do need to do better.

I agree that there will probably be a big clear out at the end of the season, and that there probably needs to be. Also agree that we should be moving away from mediocracy.

If we did let the 14 or so go that are out of contract / loans ending and were left with the remaining 11 (or 12 with Green ) then we would need quite a few players to make up the squad. What's the likelihood that DA and his team can attract enough decent players to make us competitive, or is there a danger that we'd still end up with mediocre but just with a different set of players?

Well as others have said his recruitment so far hasn't been too bad.

Tharme - Very good
Thompson - Very good

Hume & Smith - Ok.

Obikwu and Wood - Ok.  DN35 podcast summed up Jan loans nicely this week when they described them as 'you get what you're given'.  When you consider that with the exception of George Lloyd and the two season long loans, we were absolutely dreadful in the loan market last season, especially with younger players.

If we end up with 12 then we probably need another 12.  Within that 12 if we had a 25% strike rate as good as Tharme and Thompson that gives us 3 very good additions.  You add that to an existing spine of 3 (Tharme, Thompson & Rose) and you've got over half your first XI as more than decent.  

You don't need a team of superstars to be effective at this level.  Just a strong core and a few sprinklings of quality.  

The biggest stick to hit Artell's Crewe time with was his recruitment when his young stars were sold, it was largely accepted as awful. But it feels an unfair stick to beat him with. 1) We're not at League One so let's not worry about how he recruited at that level and 2) we don't know enough about the budget constraints etc, he was working with.  

My view is he's done pretty ok with recruitment so far. I don't see any reason why he won't improve the squad in the summer.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Well as others have said his recruitment so far hasn't been too bad.

Tharme - Very good
Thompson - Very good

Hume & Smith - Ok.

Obikwu and Wood - Ok.  DN35 podcast summed up Jan loans nicely this week when they described them as 'you get what you're given'.  When you consider that with the exception of George Lloyd and the two season long loans, we were absolutely dreadful in the loan market last season, especially with younger players.

If we end up with 12 then we probably need another 12.  Within that 12 if we had a 25% strike rate as good as Tharme and Thompson that gives us 3 very good additions.  You add that to an existing spine of 3 (Tharme, Thompson & Rose) and you've got over half your first XI as more than decent.  

You don't need a team of superstars to be effective at this level.  Just a strong core and a few sprinklings of quality.  

The biggest stick to hit Artell's Crewe time with was his recruitment when his young stars were sold, it was largely accepted as awful. But it feels an unfair stick to beat him with. 1) We're not at League One so let's not worry about how he recruited at that level and 2) we don't know enough about the budget constraints etc, he was working with.  

My view is he's done pretty ok with recruitment so far. I don't see any reason why he won't improve the squad in the summer.

I also think it makes a huge difference that we have a recruitment team around Artell. He alludes in his pre match interview that we are well on the way with recruitment for next season already.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Well as others have said his recruitment so far hasn't been too bad.

Tharme - Very good
Thompson - Very good

Hume & Smith - Ok.

Obikwu and Wood - Ok.  DN35 podcast summed up Jan loans nicely this week when they described them as 'you get what you're given'.  When you consider that with the exception of George Lloyd and the two season long loans, we were absolutely dreadful in the loan market last season, especially with younger players.

If we end up with 12 then we probably need another 12.  Within that 12 if we had a 25% strike rate as good as Tharme and Thompson that gives us 3 very good additions.  You add that to an existing spine of 3 (Tharme, Thompson & Rose) and you've got over half your first XI as more than decent.  

You don't need a team of superstars to be effective at this level.  Just a strong core and a few sprinklings of quality.  

The biggest stick to hit Artell's Crewe time with was his recruitment when his young stars were sold, it was largely accepted as awful. But it feels an unfair stick to beat him with. 1) We're not at League One so let's not worry about how he recruited at that level and 2) we don't know enough about the budget constraints etc, he was working with.  

My view is he's done pretty ok with recruitment so far. I don't see any reason why he won't improve the squad in the summer.

Have to also take in to account that he was doing his shopping in January for a team in a relegation battle. He will still have to convince other players to come here in the summer but it will be with a clean slate so more appealing to more players.

Quoted from gtfc98

I also think it makes a huge difference that we have a recruitment team around Artell. He alludes in his pre match interview that we are well on the way with recruitment for next season already.

Aye.

I'm a bit reluctant to throw in the recruitment team around him though as our current recruitment team have got a mixed record at the minute.  There's so many nuances to that argument, for and against them, so it's difficult to really say if they'll help or hinder.  That's not a criticism of them at all either, my gut feeling is that they are/will be very good but the set-up last summer wasn't aligned.

It is interesting that Artell has heavily hinted working well with them in January though.  Would be genuinely interested to know how many of the six signings were players already on his radar and/or ones he identified himself.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Aye.

I'm a bit reluctant to throw in the recruitment team around him though as our current recruitment team have got a mixed record at the minute.  There's so many nuances to that argument, for and against them, so it's difficult to really say if they'll help or hinder.  That's not a criticism of them at all either, my gut feeling is that they are/will be very good but the set-up last summer wasn't aligned.

It is interesting that Artell has heavily hinted working well with them in January though.  Would be genuinely interested to know how many of the six signings were players already on his radar and/or ones he identified himself.

The only think I'd caveat that with is that from what Jason alluded to in a podcast recently Hurst rejected a lot of the suggestions put forward, with the exception of Conteh.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Well as others have said his recruitment so far hasn't been too bad..

Artell doesn’t pick the signings though? He’s head coach. He isn’t the manager. He has an input in the process, maybe even a veto, but recruitment is not in his remit.

Hume and Tharme were both targets in the summer for example.

If Cheltenham are relegated, I still think that George Lloyd would be an asset to sign to improve the midfield or in the No 20 role.

He showed graft in harassing defenders and also scored a few goals.

There may be more rough diamonds in Arlett's wish list and he will have his known wants from previous experiences and going to see matches.

If he wants Hunt back for creativity in passing, then he  another Pouton like player as a strong protector in midfield.

I saw Hunt in his last game playing more on the right flank for York, so I wondered if that was something where he may have more time for thinking and crossing?

A strong midfield is an essential so not to let teams overpower us.

Weaknesses this season - poor accuracy in passing, lack of ball control once received, slow play which is allowing opponents time to reset, players not showing on the flanks to spread play, so many goal chances not being converted.

Even saying that we have players who have been injured, the players at this level should be capable of trapping and controlling the ball in less than 4 or 5 touches.

I can see some ruthless decisions being made at season end, but would wish all leaving players success unless they come up against us !!

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Artell doesn’t pick the signings though? He’s head coach. He isn’t the manager. He has an input in the process, maybe even a veto, but recruitment is not in his remit.

Hume and Tharme were both targets in the summer for example.

Yeah absolutely, he said on the DN35 podcast he gets a veto but anybody who thinks he's identifying these players and leading on signing them is barking up the wrong tree.

He said when he came he wouldn't be leading in this, Stockwood said after Hurst went one of the reasons for it was because he didn't listen to the recruitment team in the summer but went his own way a lot.

Keep hearing this, oh his signings in January were good - he isn't signing them. If it had been Pearson instead say we would have had the opportunity to sign at least most of them, quite possibly all

Quoted from Poojah

Agree this is both an opportunity, and the right time, to be ruthless. Personally, I’d offer Hume a contract, still think there’s a role for Clifton if we can play him alongside better players and feel we should probably offer Ainley something if only for the optics, but the rest I broadly agree with.

Worth noting though that such an opportunity is a double-edged sword; if we’re going to ring the changes then we sure as shít need to make a better job of it than we did last summer.

I think the only footballing argument for retaining Clifton is his versatility which makes him an asset on the subs bench and as a squad member to cover for injuries and suspensions. I really don’t understand why so many of our fans think he’s such a good player when, IMO, he’s distinctly average. Still I’m a big fan of both Glennon and Hunt so we all have our blind spots.

If I am Head coach there is no way on God's earth am I not having a huge say in who we sign, despite having a recruitment specialist.

Also, players often gravitate to managers they know or trust, or have played for previously.

I can understand the recruitment chap recommending some names unknown to the manager, and then helping with any recruitment process but no manager or Head coach will allow players to be signed who he isn't happy with as its his job on the line.

Quoted from Lincoln Mariner 56

I think the only footballing argument for retaining Clifton is his versatility which makes him an asset on the subs bench and as a squad member to cover for injuries and suspensions. I really don’t understand why so many of our fans think he’s such a good player when, IMO, he’s distinctly average. Still I’m a big fan of both Glennon and Hunt so we all have our blind spots.

I can see both arguments. It’s clear that he has a great engine and covers a huge amount of ground, which like the Serge Makofo / pace argument isn’t all that useful, but did score 9 goals last season and has scored 20 in the last 3 seasons, which is reasonable for a midfielder.

I don’t think he’s played particularly well this season, and has found himself out of the starting line-up on merit, but I do think that surrounded by better technical players and with a bit of confidence (which I think he’s lost) he has the potential to be an asset for us next season.

That said, I understand the argument of his dissenters nonetheless. Personally, I think playing away from his home town might do him some good.  

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

If I am Head coach there is no way on God's earth am I not having a huge say in who we sign, despite having a recruitment specialist.

Also, players often gravitate to managers they know or trust, or have played for previously.

I can understand the recruitment chap recommending some names unknown to the manager, and then helping with any recruitment process but no manager or Head coach will allow players to be signed who he isn't happy with as its his job on the line.

Err, yeah he said he had a veto. It doesn't change anything I said

I do not get the whole negativity regarding Clifton and can't believe some are questioning keeping him next season. Yes it has not been his best season but like him or not he is proven at this level. He was player of the season last year by some distance. Do we need some better technical players? Yes of course, but you need a balance and mixture of everything. I still believe we are a better team with Clifton in it than not.

As I have said on another thread I am cautious of a full clear out this summer. I would be keeping our better out of contract players and that includes Clifton. I have a feeling Green will stay as well, Artell seems to like him. Artell has said in a previous interview that discussions with 2 out of contract players have started, no idea who these are but I think he will look to keep at least a few for some consistency.

Quoted from HarrogateMariner

I do not get the whole negativity regarding Clifton and can't believe some are questioning keeping him next season. Yes it has not been his best season but like him or not he is proven at this level. He was player of the season last year by some distance. Do we need some better technical players? Yes of course, but you need a balance and mixture of everything. I still believe we are a better team with Clifton in it than not.

As I have said on another thread I am cautious of a full clear out this summer. I would be keeping our better out of contract players and that includes Clifton. I have a feeling Green will stay as well, Artell seems to like him. Artell has said in a previous interview that discussions with 2 out of contract players have started, no idea who these are but I think he will look to keep at least a few for some consistency.

I got a dozen + red crosses for suggesting similar. But I agree. This has been a v poor season for him but hes hardly been the worst player. His versatility n engine n passion are all extremely valuable topls

Quoted from forza ivano

I got a dozen + red crosses for suggesting similar. But I agree. This has been a v poor season for him but hes hardly been the worst player. His versatility n engine n passion are all extremely valuable topls

Definitely keep if we can as he's proven at this level, this is his worst season, he's suffered as others have but he's far from being the worst performer. However, I reckon he will go to Shrewsbury to link up with Hurst.

Quoted from HarrogateMariner

I do not get the whole negativity regarding Clifton and can't believe some are questioning keeping him next season. Yes it has not been his best season but like him or not he is proven at this level. He was player of the season last year by some distance. Do we need some better technical players? Yes of course, but you need a balance and mixture of everything. I still believe we are a better team with Clifton in it than not.

As I have said on another thread I am cautious of a full clear out this summer. I would be keeping our better out of contract players and that includes Clifton. I have a feeling Green will stay as well, Artell seems to like him. Artell has said in a previous interview that discussions with 2 out of contract players have started, no idea who these are but I think he will look to keep at least a few for some consistency.

What position would Clifton be staying on as though? Cause it can't be central midfield. He'll be 26 in June and has had one good season where he's regularly started in central midfield. Before Hurst returned he was in and out of the side and often used out wide like he was in his best season which was in the NL where he was generally very good on the left. If he's staying on because he's got a good engine and as a utility player with a great attitude then he's a fantastic attribute for a L2 squad. If he wants to be first choice in central midfield then I'd let him go as he's simply nowhere near good enough on the ball. You'll not trouble the play offs/automatic places if Clifton is regularly starting in centre mid for you.

Artell's veto on transfers is effectively him having the final say, surely?

The role of the Joe Hutchinson and co. is to identify what we need and who can fill it.  That'll be presented to the manager/head coach/whatever for them to say yes or no.  It would have to be a very strong argument for Artell, or Hurst, to be overruled.  

Artell could do all the dirty work and find players hidden in pockets of fringe teams here and there, then end up signing them anyway.  Or he could let Hutchinson do the base work for that, then the players he wants and get time to concentrate on other pressing matters.

There's no chance in hell that Artell isn't having the dominant input and final decision on any transfers.  With that he gets the credit and blame as they come.

Quoted from mariner91

You'll not trouble the play offs/automatic places if Clifton is regularly starting in centre mid for you.

I've been disappointed with Harry this year and come to the conclusion that centre mid isn't actually his best position at all.  He isn't alone in having a poor season though and if anyone has the credit in the bank it's him.

I do agree with you that you can't have him in the middle if you want to challenge, however that's in the middle as your main man.  I think if you've got him as the one who does the dirty running, the water carrier if you like, alongside better players then he's an important cog in the wheel.

Success won't come because we've got 11 match winning players on the pitch.  It'll be a blend of those with ability to influence games and those who are capable of grinding stuff out.  Harry falls into the latter of those options.

Personally, I'm more inclined to say keep him but it's clear that he's a utility player.

Regarding Clifton we looked worse when Hume replaced him.

Quoted from toontown

Yeah absolutely, he said on the DN35 podcast he gets a veto but anybody who thinks he's identifying these players and leading on signing them is barking up the wrong tree.

He said when he came he wouldn't be leading in this, Stockwood said after Hurst went one of the reasons for it was because he didn't listen to the recruitment team in the summer but went his own way a lot.

Keep hearing this, oh his signings in January were good - he isn't signing them. If it had been Pearson instead say we would have had the opportunity to sign at least most of them, quite possibly all

I didn't hear that statement, but reading between the lines that's why I think he was sacked. It raises an interesting question though, if next season we're also crap and the manager and players were all chosen by Hutchison, who becomes the fall guy? Sacking the recruitment guy isn't going to instantly change results but you'd be hard pressed to blame anybody else unless we're getting smashed by playing the 'Grimsby way', which Artell was given the mandate of doing.

And that's Harry's 3rd, 4th best position?

I think that probably sums up why we'll need him moving forward.  I think you can put him anywhere in midfield or on either side at fullback and he does a competent job 9 times out of 10.  He might not reach the standards of last season but he's likely to be better than the vast majority of people we could sign as backup for those positions.

I'd rather spend a wage on Harry knowing he can provide adequate cover for a number of positions, save a bit of cash on wholesale cover and use that saving a bit to bring in quality elsewhere in the starting XI.

Quoted from HarrogateMariner

I do not get the whole negativity regarding Clifton and can't believe some are questioning keeping him next season. Yes it has not been his best season but like him or not he is proven at this level. He was player of the season last year by some distance. Do we need some better technical players? Yes of course, but you need a balance and mixture of everything. I still believe we are a better team with Clifton in it than not.

As I have said on another thread I am cautious of a full clear out this summer. I would be keeping our better out of contract players and that includes Clifton. I have a feeling Green will stay as well, Artell seems to like him. Artell has said in a previous interview that discussions with 2 out of contract players have started, no idea who these are but I think he will look to keep at least a few for some consistency.

Player data from L2 is freely available on various websites. Clifton’s data is appalling. There’s no way he’d get considered as a signing if he was at another club.

Quoted from diehardmariner

And that's Harry's 3rd, 4th best position?

I think that probably sums up why we'll need him moving forward.  I think you can put him anywhere in midfield or on either side at fullback and he does a competent job 9 times out of 10.  He might not reach the standards of last season but he's likely to be better than the vast majority of people we could sign as backup for those positions.

I'd rather spend a wage on Harry knowing he can provide adequate cover for a number of positions, save a bit of cash on wholesale cover and use that saving a bit to bring in quality elsewhere in the starting XI.

It means you can spend better in other areas because his versatility means he can do a job in 6 different positions rather than needing a back up in every single other position. I'm not his biggest fan but at this level every successful squad has a player that does a job all over the pitch. Jordan Bowery played centre half for Mansfield last night and he's there number 9. This season he's played up top, right back, centre half, centre mid and right wing.

I don't think Clifton is at all good in central midfield as he just lacks the awareness and technical ability to retain possession. Unfortunately, that just not an aspect of his game he can apparently develop, though we've all been hoping he would since he broke through as a youngster. His best performances for me were when he was out on the left wing and he did very well there last season, but the question is whether we would prefer a proper attacking winger such as Vernam playing wide and I think we really should. Trying to grind out results now is all well and good, but we've got to aim for better next season. I suppose he could play in a midfield 3 as long as he's not the one trying to make it tick in the middle.

Though Clifton has had by far his worst season for us, I think he's versatile enough (and usually better overall than he has been this season), so that we will keep him for another year or two.

However, we can't be starting next season with the idea that he's going to be a first choice player.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Player data from L2 is freely available on various websites. Clifton’s data is appalling. There’s no way he’d get considered as a signing if he was at another club.

do those stats reveal whether any of our players are actually doing well?

Quoted from diehardmariner

Well as others have said his recruitment so far hasn't been too bad.

Tharme - Very good
Thompson - Very good

Hume & Smith - Ok.

Obikwu and Wood - Ok.  DN35 podcast summed up Jan loans nicely this week when they described them as 'you get what you're given'.  When you consider that with the exception of George Lloyd and the two season long loans, we were absolutely dreadful in the loan market last season, especially with younger players.

If we end up with 12 then we probably need another 12.  Within that 12 if we had a 25% strike rate as good as Tharme and Thompson that gives us 3 very good additions.  You add that to an existing spine of 3 (Tharme, Thompson & Rose) and you've got over half your first XI as more than decent.  

You don't need a team of superstars to be effective at this level.  Just a strong core and a few sprinklings of quality.  

The biggest stick to hit Artell's Crewe time with was his recruitment when his young stars were sold, it was largely accepted as awful. But it feels an unfair stick to beat him with. 1) We're not at League One so let's not worry about how he recruited at that level and 2) we don't know enough about the budget constraints etc, he was working with.  

My view is he's done pretty ok with recruitment so far. I don't see any reason why he won't improve the squad in the summer.

I agree with most of this but sorry can't agree that Obikwu is OK, he's a terrible player, I wouldn't mind seeing Lady G. galloping down the M180 on her white steed to collect him and deliver him back where he's come from. I know he's young but so frustrating to watch, doesn't hold the ball up, can't pass and for a guy his height doesn't win hardly any headers.I personally hope to never see him in a Town shirt ever again.

He was painful to watch on Tuesday, that much is for sure!

But he was also virtually unplayable against Sutton for example.  

There's a player in there, the biggest challenge is getting it out consistently.   Getting young lads from these elite Academy's always ends up with a similar type product, i.e. they're just so raw and generally not ready for the rough and tumble of professional football.

As other have said elsewhere, I'd personally prefer to see us blooding our own kids and giving them experience than doing the dirty work for other sides.  But there's clearly a reason behind it.  But I still think Obikwu is 'ok', nothing more or less and certainly better than virtually all the young loan lads we've had before.

Quoted from diehardmariner

He was painful to watch on Tuesday, that much is for sure!

But he was also virtually unplayable against Sutton for example.  

There's a player in there, the biggest challenge is getting it out consistently.   Getting young lads from these elite Academy's always ends up with a similar type product, i.e. they're just so raw and generally not ready for the rough and tumble of professional football.

As other have said elsewhere, I'd personally prefer to see us blooding our own kids and giving them experience than doing the dirty work for other sides.  But there's clearly a reason behind it.  But I still think Obikwu is 'ok', nothing more or less and certainly better than virtually all the young loan lads we've had before.

He was also good against MK and ultimately scored the only goal of the game. He's scored three goals and gained us four vital points, the goal against Sutton being doubly important as it stopped them picking up more points. He's been an okay signing but nothing more than that. Ideally we would get better for next season.

Don't disagree with anything that's really been said re Obikwu, he has scored pivotal goals for us but equally has looked completely lost in some matches

I'm all for bring young ones through, however we are at a massive point in the season where maybe experience is more valuable.

Maybe if things go our way at the weekend and we find ourselves safe then great let Obikwu rinse the rest of his time with us, but equally would giving someone like Cam Gardner a go be more beneficial to the club (not sure when his loan ends?)

If we keep player raw youngsters with no connection to the club when they are bringing so little to the team we deserve all we get.

Surely to God there were experienced players desperate for game time when we were looking in January.

I'm not sure why we even think it is a good idea at all. The Championship and the way they play the game is completely different to league 2. I doubt any of them have known anything but having plenty of time to showcase their skills against other youngsters having plenty of time to showcase their skills.

It is unfair on the players, and unfair on our brilliant support that we are trying to rely on youngsters like this.

  I agree with die hard mariner re blooding our own, the problem is if we haven't sold the better youngsters before they've completed the 3 year YT,  we've released these lads in their last year' you only have to look at the semi pro leagues plastered with journey men.
The Academy system of the higher leagues (thank you Howard Wilkinson) haven't done the lower section of the football pyramid any favours,  they  hoover up the better youngsters by selling them the dream then release them.

For me we start the next transfer window with these...

Doug Tharme (still under contract)
Harvey Rodgers (still under contract)
Toby Mullarkey (still under contract)
Curtis Thompson (still under contract)
Alex Hunt (still under contract)
Harry Clifton (offer new contract)
Charles Vernam (still under contract)
Danny Rose (still under contract)

The rest can go. Bring in...
2 new keepers
2 new full backs plus backups (4)
A centre half powerhouse (Captain)
2/3 new creative midfielders with an engine and goals in them
A new solid midfielder (upgrade on Green)
2/3 new rapid direct wingers
A target man strike partner for Rose
A George Lloyd type workhorse striker

Looking like 14-16 new signings in the summer. Gonna be busy

Quoted from Stew0_0

For me we start the next transfer window with these...

Doug Tharme (still under contract)
Harvey Rodgers (still under contract)
Toby Mullarkey (still under contract)
Curtis Thompson (still under contract)
Alex Hunt (still under contract)
Harry Clifton (offer new contract)
Charles Vernam (still under contract)
Danny Rose (still under contract)

The rest can go. Bring in...
2 new keepers
2 new full backs plus backups (4)
A centre half powerhouse (Captain)
2/3 new creative midfielders with an engine and goals in them
A new solid midfielder (upgrade on Green)
2/3 new rapid direct wingers
A target man strike partner for Rose
A George Lloyd type workhorse striker

Looking like 14-16 new signings in the summer. Gonna be busy

And for me personally we cannot be looking to start the season with Rodgers and Mullarkey as starters- especially if we move to 4 at the back

Quoted from Stew0_0

For me we start the next transfer window with these...

Doug Tharme (still under contract)
Harvey Rodgers (still under contract)
Toby Mullarkey (still under contract)
Curtis Thompson (still under contract)
Alex Hunt (still under contract)
Harry Clifton (offer new contract)
Charles Vernam (still under contract)
Danny Rose (still under contract)

The rest can go. Bring in...
2 new keepers
2 new full backs plus backups (4)
A centre half powerhouse (Captain)
2/3 new creative midfielders with an engine and goals in them
A new solid midfielder (upgrade on Green)
2/3 new rapid direct wingers
A target man strike partner for Rose
A George Lloyd type workhorse striker

Looking like 14-16 new signings in the summer. Gonna be busy

I like Tharme but if we go to a back 4 he will need a quicker CB partner  next to him as he is very slow - unless we play deep but I doubt that's something Artell will want next time out .

Quoted from Mappers

I like Tharme but if we go to a back 4 he will need a quicker CB partner  next to him as he is very slow - unless we play deep but I doubt that's something Artell will want next time out .

Tharme is a great defender and a good leader, strong in the air and the tackle, with a good throw - but he's not got much pace and his distribution is woeful. Not convinced he will be great at Artellball when Artell wheels that out again, just like he wasn't last time. I really really hope Artell has learnt his lesson this season or else next season (if we stay up) could see the wheels come off very quickly indeed. Assuming we go back to a back 4 we need a quicker partner for him who has some distribution skills.

A Tharme and Rodgers partnership in a back 4 got relegated from league 1 and trying the same again in league 2 will not bring a successful promotion challenge.

I think Tharme is there as the warrior, leader, just basic defender for the future.  

I was worried when he was first brought in if he was there to play 'ArtellBall'.  However I genuinely think it'll be those around him who will be the ones bringing it out and passing it.  You can't have everyone doing the same thing.

That said, with games under his belt Tharme looks far more assured with the ball at his feet and doing actual stuff with it.

I'm sure that if Artell wants to play out from the back he and the recruitment team will identify players who can do this. Don't forget he inherited players who , in hindsight, couldn't play the way he wanted them to.

I know Gardner was given a contract but have any other youth team players been offered contracts since his??

Where's this idea that Tharme is slow come from? Seems OK to me, pace-wise. A typical League Two defender. He looks better than the rest defensively and we all know about that throw.

Quoted from rancido

I'm sure that if Artell wants to play out from the back he and the recruitment team will identify players who can do this. Don't forget he inherited players who , in hindsight, couldn't play the way he wanted them to.

I really really hope this vanity project gets shelved and he realises that L2 is not the place for this . Ffs Dortmund fooked it up last night trying to play out and it could cost them a place in the CL semis . I just can’t see the benefit of attempting it at L2 level.

Quoted from Maringer

Where's this idea that Tharme is slow come from? Seems OK to me, pace-wise. A typical League Two defender. He looks better than the rest defensively and we all know about that throw.

Any time we have to attack and he get's turned around-  3 or 4 examples second half against Harrogate .

He needs a mobile companion or to consistently defend deep - he's looked very good in the back 5 when in the main we have either been sat behind the ball or cautiously attacking .

Quoted from louth_in_the_south

I really really hope this vanity project gets shelved and he realises that L2 is not the place for this . Ffs Dortmund fooked it up last night trying to play out and it could cost them a place in the CL semis . I just can’t see the benefit of attempting it at L2 level.

I am dubious in truth aswell . Maybe it can work , with the right players /budget - MK have not done badly but Notts the other one's who try and play total football got found out really badly . Mansfield play a bit and looked good + might get promotion but it's been a long process for them with a lot of ££££ thrown at  it .

Most of the other teams who do well seem to mix it up well at this level or just have better players (see Wrexham & Stockport ) neither of them exactly looked like Real Madrid in the games against us just effective and clinical . I hope the 'teams who do well make over  600 passes a game ' quote wasn't something he is taking seriously  or will try and implement ; hopefully just a broader insight as teams (any) who do well at league 2 level very rarely pass that number .

Quoted from rancido

I'm sure that if Artell wants to play out from the back he and the recruitment team will identify players who can do this. Don't forget he inherited players who , in hindsight, couldn't play the way he wanted them to.

Sadly he inherited players who can barely play anyway at all.

Quoted from Mappers

I am dubious in truth aswell . Maybe it can work , with the right players /budget - MK have not done badly but Notts the other one's who try and play total football got found out really badly . Mansfield play a bit and looked good + might get promotion but it's been a long process for them with a lot of ££££ thrown at  it .

Most of the other teams who do well seem to mix it up well at this level or just have better players (see Wrexham & Stockport ) neither of them exactly looked like Real Madrid in the games against us just effective and clinical . I hope the 'teams who do well make over  600 passes a game ' quote wasn't something he is taking seriously  or will try and implement ; hopefully just a broader insight as teams (any) who do well at league 2 level very rarely pass that number .

If he does attempt to create a team that makes 600 passes a game I guarantee it will only end up getting him the sack and we’ll have a seriously negative goal difference and be in a similar position when in the league when the next manager takes over .