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Quoted from monkeyboy

I will probably be shot down for this but i have seen a few people getting on about pepple.

When he was introduced on saturday he held the ball up well and found more space than taylor did, he also is a bit quicker.
He also seems to have a few efforts on goal when he does get a few minutes which is something our current strikers dont get.

I think with a run of games this lad could well prove the doubters wrong. hardest part is getting games tho as certain people are first on the teamsheet and seem to be undroppable.
Hurst is a very stobborn man.

I must admit I need a bit of convincing, but with time I agree he could be a asset. On saturday he had the chance to drive into the box and maybe draw a foul, its probably a confidence thing or is it that we keep the ball and develop the play again. Personally, I'd like to see him drive into the box.

Can we loan out a loanee? 😂 in all seriousness, I think he needs a run of games, gain some sharpness and confidence. We need more reserve team fixtures.

It won't be popular but I reckon Luton saw us coming. Paid not a lot for McAtee when the footballing grapevine was raving about him after national exposure in the playoffs, and we got an untried youngster in return. I thought we would drive a harder bargain than that.

We've got a few players who have been tried alongside Taylor this season and my preference from who I like the most to least is..

Richardson
Orsi
Pepple
Simmonds

...I know Orsi has had time out with injuries and maybe illness the last few matches but for me Orsi is clearly a better player than Pepple and Simmonds and I'd like to think we'll see more of him when he's eventually fully fit.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

It won't be popular but I reckon Luton saw us coming. Paid not a lot for McAtee when the footballing grapevine was raving about him after national exposure in the playoffs, and we got an untried youngster in return. I thought we would drive a harder bargain than that.

I think you're maybe over egging our bargaining position.

They paid a fee for a player with an injury that was going to rule him out of action until a period where he is allowed to speak to other clubs with 6 months left on his contract. We managed to keep that player on loan until the end of the season, hopefully getting a few months out of him once he recovers from said injury.

Considering the alternative was him sitting in the treatment room until January and then either getting sold for very little and us not seeing him again in a Town shirt or losing him for nothing in the summer, I don't think we've done too badly.

Pepple's really raw, that's what you get when you've effectively plucked a guy from the Canadian league. But what isn't helping is that he's getting used, in the main, as a like-for-like for Taylor. Just because he's got a bit about him physically doesn't mean he can do that job. The third goal against Crawley was a great example of what he can offer when deployed alongside someone else, Taylor in this case.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Pepple's really raw, that's what you get when you've effectively plucked a guy from the Canadian league. But what isn't helping is that he's getting used, in the main, as a like-for-like for Taylor. Just because he's got a bit about him physically doesn't mean he can do that job. The third goal against Crawley was a great example of what he can offer when deployed alongside someone else, Taylor in this case.

You see on his highlights from his time in Canada, a lot of his best play comes when picking the ball up out wide on the left where he can use his physicality to muscle his way down the sides or into the box. It’d be far better for him to be used that way than as a lone striker where he’s going to get bullied by L2 centre halves.

But like everyone’s said, it’d require a change in system that Hurst won’t do because he likes that single focal point up top. To me I think that’s because it allows us to set up more defensively and hit teams on the break, but the cost is that we can never establish any decent sustained pressure and we waste good positions because chances fall to midfielders rather than strikers.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I think you're maybe over egging our bargaining position.

They paid a fee for a player with an injury that was going to rule him out of action until a period where he is allowed to speak to other clubs with 6 months left on his contract. We managed to keep that player on loan until the end of the season, hopefully getting a few months out of him once he recovers from said injury.

Considering the alternative was him sitting in the treatment room until January and then either getting sold for very little and us not seeing him again in a Town shirt or losing him for nothing in the summer, I don't think we've done too badly.

Pepple's really raw, that's what you get when you've effectively plucked a guy from the Canadian league. But what isn't helping is that he's getting used, in the main, as a like-for-like for Taylor. Just because he's got a bit about him physically doesn't mean he can do that job. The third goal against Crawley was a great example of what he can offer when deployed alongside someone else, Taylor in this case.

McAtee started the first league game, so only in hindsight can we say he was carrying an injury. His shoulder was problematic but for all Luton knew he could have played every game by now.

It is the Pepple loan where we should have played hardball. It is unlikely Hurst had ever heard of him; Luton being in the Championship must have players that are itching to play, but not good enough yet for the Championship. Pepple was completely untried, completely raw and we should have said no thanks, either up your offer so we can get a replacement, or agree to loan us a player that was more likely to make our team.

This is not a criticism of Pepple per se, it is what it is, but if they wanted to get McAtee for a relatively low price because of a loan going the other way, we should have pressed for a loan player that had more development under his belt.

Up North were not as cute at bargaining as them crafty southerners, we are still wearing smocks and chewing straws. Luton drunk all over us, that's why they are in the position they are

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

McAtee started the first league game, so only in hindsight can we say he was carrying an injury. His shoulder was problematic but for all Luton knew he could have played every game by now.

It is the Pepple loan where we should have played hardball. It is unlikely Hurst had ever heard of him; Luton being in the Championship must have players that are itching to play, but not good enough yet for the Championship. Pepple was completely untried, completely raw and we should have said no thanks, either up your offer so we can get a replacement, or agree to loan us a player that was more likely to make our team.

This is not a criticism of Pepple per se, it is what it is, but if they wanted to get McAtee for a relatively low price because of a loan going the other way, we should have pressed for a loan player that had more development under his belt.

The thing is though, you've pretty much created that scenario...who is to say Pepple coming here on loan had any say on how much they paid for McAtee? We are not privvy at all to transfer negotiating and behind the scenes business discussions.

Quoted from monkeyboy

I will probably be shot down for this but i have seen a few people getting on about pepple.

When he was introduced on saturday he held the ball up well and found more space than taylor did, he also is a bit quicker.
He also seems to have a few efforts on goal when he does get a few minutes which is something our current strikers dont get.

I think with a run of games this lad could well prove the doubters wrong. hardest part is getting games tho as certain people are first on the teamsheet and seem to be undroppable.
Hurst is a very stobborn man.

The Pepple bit I agree with he like every player needs a run of games to get going, the Hurst is stubborn is very dated narrative TBH.

I doubt very much that PH had a player foisted upon him as some are suggesting. It just sounds ridiculous to me.

As for Taylor being undroppable; of course he isn't and PH would sideline him if we had a better alternative, but we don't. He is fundamental to the way we play and unless PH decides to change formation, we don't really have anyone else with the experience of Taylor.

It's the same old scenario of players becoming better in the mind when they are on the bench. Pepple isn't ready to be a regular, leading the line in League 2.

The simple fact is that we just don't have enough experienced players in forward areas and are missing the goals of McAtee. You can criticize PH for not signing enough experienced forwards, fair enough, but not for sticking mainly with Taylor, who is the best option in my opinion.

As with the Bradford match, our game plan worked well on Saturday, but once again the finishing let everything down. Had we got that second or third goal or defended better and hung onto to a 1-0 win, then nobody would be questioning PH's tactics.

You win, the tactics are right, you lose, and they are wrong, and every fan knows better.

We all know we need more firepower in the team. The manager knows it, the fans know it and the board know it. I think we are doing ok and if we improve again in January as we did last season, then we will be going in the right direction.

Quoted from sam gy

The thing is though, you've pretty much created that scenario...who is to say Pepple coming here on loan had any say on how much they paid for McAtee? We are not privvy at all to transfer negotiating and behind the scenes business discussions.

Well, a lot of what we talk about is conjecture, but that is part of the fun.

I think we tried to justify the deal by saying something like we wanted to create good impressions with Luton. You don't have to get the wrong end of a deal to make a good impression, and I doubt whether Luton has given us a second thought apart from anything concerning McAtee.

I am slightly irritated as we have all seen players go to Premier League and Championship clubs for transformative transfer fees, and our best player in a long long time has gone for money that seemingly is well short of that even though he had a nationwide audition in the playoffs.

I agree there are a lot of maybes. Perhaps Luton was the only suitor. Maybe McAtee only wanted to go to Luton but in hindsight, it is not the best deal in the world when you compare it to other players who lack the star quality of McAtee.

Quoted from ginnywings

I doubt very much that PH had a player foisted upon him as some are suggesting. It just sounds ridiculous to me.

As for Taylor being undroppable; of course he isn't and PH would sideline him if we had a better alternative, but we don't. He is fundamental to the way we play and unless PH decides to change formation, we don't really have anyone else with the experience of Taylor.

It's the same old scenario of players becoming better in the mind when they are on the bench. Pepple isn't ready to be a regular, leading the line in League 2.

The simple fact is that we just don't have enough experienced players in forward areas and are missing the goals of McAtee. You can criticize PH for not signing enough experienced forwards, fair enough, but not for sticking mainly with Taylor, who is the best option in my opinion.

As with the Bradford match, our game plan worked well on Saturday, but once again the finishing let everything down. Had we got that second or third goal or defended better and hung onto to a 1-0 win, then nobody would be questioning PH's tactics.

You win, the tactics are right, you lose, and they are wrong, and every fan knows better.

We all know we need more firepower in the team. The manager knows it, the fans know it and the board know it. I think we are doing ok and if we improve again in January as we did last season, then we will be going in the right direction.

I think your post sums up our situation precisely, especially the last sentence. The problem is that will have to learn to have patience till the return of McAtee and, of course, the January transfer window.

I'm sorry but Pepple has not shown he's anywhere near ready for the English game, he's not quick, actually far from it, his first touch is terrible and cannot hit a cows backside with a banjo.
I can't blame the lad for giving it a go, it's not a personal slight at him as a person, but as a footballer.
I don't even think a dun of games would change his ability, he got plenty of minutes early in the season and just looked lost, whereas Richardson looks like the real deal, quick with the ball at his feet and he appeas to be growing in confidence now.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

McAtee started the first league game, so only in hindsight can we say he was carrying an injury. His shoulder was problematic but for all Luton knew he could have played every game by now.

Whilst I’m sure the deal was agreed before the Orient match it was certainly not announced until the week later and I recall there was an initial rumour he had failed his medical due to his shoulder so pretty sure Luton were well aware of his injury when he signed.

Quoted from Northbank Mariner

I'm sorry but Pepple has not shown he's anywhere near ready for the English game,
I can't blame the lad for giving it a go, it's not a personal slight at him as a person, but as a footballer.
I don't even think a dun of games would change his ability, he got plenty of minutes early in the season and just looked lost,

In the game I saw him play against Sutton at home earlier in the season thought he had a good energy about him and tried to make things happen.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

McAtee started the first league game, so only in hindsight can we say he was carrying an injury. His shoulder was problematic but for all Luton knew he could have played every game by now.

It is the Pepple loan where we should have played hardball. It is unlikely Hurst had ever heard of him; Luton being in the Championship must have players that are itching to play, but not good enough yet for the Championship. Pepple was completely untried, completely raw and we should have said no thanks, either up your offer so we can get a replacement, or agree to loan us a player that was more likely to make our team.

This is not a criticism of Pepple per se, it is what it is, but if they wanted to get McAtee for a relatively low price because of a loan going the other way, we should have pressed for a loan player that had more development under his belt.

It wasn't hindsight when the transfer was made. He signed for them after he dislocated it in the opening stages of the Orient game, that was after the initial diagnosis that it could be managed without surgery. After that second dislocation it was determined he would need an operation.

Quoted Text

“It’s not good news; unfortunately,” said Hurst. “He is going to need an operation this time, and once that is done, he will be out for months. It is obviously a blow, but it is what it is, and he’ll still be with us by the time he is fit.

- Paul Hurst, 8th August 2022 https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/paul-hurst-provides-update-john-7437509

Whilst the decision to operate wasn't made until after Luton signed him, it was always on the cards and Luton were well aware that they were signing an injured player.

Quoted Text

“We knew that prior, so it’s whether we pull out of the deal or go ‘okay, we won’t see him anyway until earliest Christmas, because we sent him back out on loan.’

Nathan Jones, 12th August 2022 https://www.lutontoday.co.uk/sport/football/luton-town/hatters-were-aware-of-mcatees-shoulder-injury-before-agreeing-to-sign-grimsby-striker-3802960

I think the carrot for us selling to Luton was that we would have a few more months of McAtee once he's back from injury, on top of the transfer fee. Pepple was probably nothing more than a bit of a thank you, far from a make-or-break part of the deal.

Pepple did ok Saturday, added pace up front and started chasing defenders down. Not his fault no one in a Town shirt could complete a simple 10 yard pass.

I'm not a fan of his, and so far I haven't seen anything to suggest that his ongoing loan is worthwhile. I'd be delighted to be given reason to change my mind though.

I remember someone on here posted that Pepple looked like a competition winner . I tend to agree . Its nothing to do with his attitude, work rate or desire etc .

Quoted from monkeyboy

I will probably be shot down for this but i have seen a few people getting on about pepple.

When he was introduced on saturday he held the ball up well and found more space than taylor did, he also is a bit quicker.
He also seems to have a few efforts on goal when he does get a few minutes which is something our current strikers dont get.

I think with a run of games this lad could well prove the doubters wrong. hardest part is getting games tho as certain people are first on the teamsheet and seem to be undroppable.
Hurst is a very stobborn man.

Sorry but machine guns out.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Well, a lot of what we talk about is conjecture, but that is part of the fun.

I think we tried to justify the deal by saying something like we wanted to create good impressions with Luton. You don't have to get the wrong end of a deal to make a good impression, and I doubt whether Luton has given us a second thought apart from anything concerning McAtee.

I am slightly irritated as we have all seen players go to Premier League and Championship clubs for transformative transfer fees, and our best player in a long long time has gone for money that seemingly is well short of that even though he had a nationwide audition in the playoffs.

I agree there are a lot of maybes. Perhaps Luton was the only suitor. Maybe McAtee only wanted to go to Luton but in hindsight, it is not the best deal in the world when you compare it to other players who lack the star quality of McAtee.

If you look back at the thread that followed the announcement of the McAtee deal, I think you’ll find the vast majority we’re of the opinion that it was a great piece of business for Town. It was pretty clear he wasn’t going to sign a new contract and we could well have lost him at the end of this season for no fee at all. So arguably from our perspective, having kept him for the season, any reasonable fee was good business.

Quoted from sam gy

The thing is though, you've pretty much created that scenario...who is to say Pepple coming here on loan had any say on how much they paid for McAtee? We are not privvy at all to transfer negotiating and behind the scenes business discussions.

You are 100% correct. Except most people on here believe we got a fantastic deal despite not being "privvy" to the undisclosed details. Unless an adequate replacement is found then who's to say Luton haven't had our pants down?

Quoted from SouthLakesMariner

If you look back at the thread that followed the announcement of the McAtee deal, I think you’ll find the vast majority we’re of the opinion that it was a great piece of business for Town. It was pretty clear he wasn’t going to sign a new contract and we could well have lost him at the end of this season for no fee at all. So arguably from our perspective, having kept him for the season, any reasonable fee was good business.

Yes you are right about that to be fair, and I think I convinced myself we got the best deal we could but a lot of that was predicated on Pepple being the quick exciting striker we needed who had after all signed for a Championship club. Sadly the manager and the fans have not seen it yet.

Like all Town fans I will be cheering if he really comes good but we the jury is out.

Not sure how comprehensive this list is (and there are some familiar names) but seems to be top end of the going rate for a non-league player

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/national-league/transferrekorde/wettbewerb/CNAT/plus//galerie/0?saison_id=alle&land_id=alle&ausrichtung=alle&spielerposition_id=alle&altersklasse=alle&leihe=&w_s=&zuab=ab

There’s been many a manager of this football club who would have been berated for signing a loanee who had never played at a better level than the Canadian League.

I feel sorry for him. He looks like a fish out of water.

Quoted from ska face

You see on his highlights from his time in Canada, a lot of his best play comes when picking the ball up out wide on the left where he can use his physicality to muscle his way down the sides or into the box. It’d be far better for him to be used that way than as a lone striker where he’s going to get bullied by L2 centre halves.

But like everyone’s said, it’d require a change in system that Hurst won’t do because he likes that single focal point up top. To me I think that’s because it allows us to set up more defensively and hit teams on the break, but the cost is that we can never establish any decent sustained pressure and we waste good positions because chances fall to midfielders rather than strikers.

It's really interesting you make that point about him playing out wide - reminds me of when Hurst used Monkhouse on the left wing in a 442 in the conference. Yes, Monkhouse wasn't always a fan favourite, but I feel like his height gave us a great outball as he would almost always win his aerial duel against the right back he was up against. Gives the opposition something to think about. Maybe if you wanted to emulate that Town team you could have something like:

Crocombe
Efete Waterfall Smith Glennon
Clifton Morris Green Pepple
Taylor Orsi

Efete bombing down the right (while Clifton covers for him) and whipping in crosses for Pepple to meet at the back post. Orsi as the fox in the box looking for knock downs from Taylor or Pepple. Green and Morris breaking play up in the middle). Then you have players like Khan, Richardson, Kiernan, etc. who can come on with 30 mins to go and give the opposition something to think about.

Maybe a bit of a mad idea, but might be worth thinking about in certain games (e.g. where the opposition right back is particularly weak in the air).

Quoted from MaccasBoots

It's really interesting you make that point about him playing out wide - reminds me of when Hurst used Monkhouse on the left wing in a 442 in the conference. Yes, Monkhouse wasn't always a fan favourite, but I feel like his height gave us a great outball as he would almost always win his aerial duel against the right back he was up against. Gives the opposition something to think about. Maybe if you wanted to emulate that Town team you could have something like:

Crocombe
Efete Waterfall Smith Glennon
Clifton Morris Green Pepple
Taylor Orsi

Efete bombing down the right (while Clifton covers for him) and whipping in crosses for Pepple to meet at the back post. Orsi as the fox in the box looking for knock downs from Taylor or Pepple. Green and Morris breaking play up in the middle). Then you have players like Khan, Richardson, Kiernan, etc. who can come on with 30 mins to go and give the opposition something to think about.

Maybe a bit of a mad idea, but might be worth thinking about in certain games (e.g. where the opposition right back is particularly weak in the air).

Monkhouse was a good player, but we played that stupid long ball to him all game every game, and when teams realised this after about 5 games, they stuck a big defender against him and nullified this tactic. We persisted with this until he got injured, which made it seem like he was a hinderance when in reality Hurst stuck to a tactic that rarely worked.

Quoted from monkeyboy

I will probably be shot down for this but i have seen a few people getting on about pepple.

When he was introduced on saturday he held the ball up well and found more space than taylor did, he also is a bit quicker.
He also seems to have a few efforts on goal when he does get a few minutes which is something our current strikers dont get.

I think with a run of games this lad could well prove the doubters wrong. hardest part is getting games tho as certain people are first on the teamsheet and seem to be undroppable.
Hurst is a very stobborn man.

If there was single shred of evidence that he was capable of finishing like taylor did for his disallowed goal in the first half then you might have a point. Unfortunately there isn't, he's come on a few times and made a difference by being a nuisance, but that's about it. Hardly enough to justify giving him a run of games. I'd rather see Orsi being given more of a run to be honest.

Quoted from bedders78

Not sure how comprehensive this list is (and there are some familiar names) but seems to be top end of the going rate for a non-league player

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/national-league/transferrekorde/wettbewerb/CNAT/plus//galerie/0?saison_id=alle&land_id=alle&ausrichtung=alle&spielerposition_id=alle&altersklasse=alle&leihe=&w_s=&zuab=ab

Surely we didn't pay £108k for Scott Garner!? Worse than that though, on page 2, is the £59k paid by us for Serge Makofo!

It's frightening looking down that list how quickly many of those players came back to earn their living in League 2 and below.

I’m sure it’s the same at every club, team loses a couple in a row and a fringe player gets a caning on social media from his own “supporters”.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I’m sure it’s the same at every club, team loses a couple in a row and a fringe player gets a caning on social media from his own “supporters”.

That’s tripe. The striker issue has been there all season and the fact Pepple rarely starts says pretty much all you need to know.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

a fringe player gets a caning on social media from his own “supporters”.

I get the frustration by fans eg work hard all week and just want what's best for their team come Saturday but must be hard for the youngsters especially who are still developing. Constructive criticism is the way to go I feel especially when you see players who are trying to improve.

I can see Simmons being sent back. To be honest someone mentioned him a few days ago and I had forgotten that we even had him.

It would be interesting to see what Hurst would do if and when Taylor got injured.

Id put my money on either Richardson or Orsi. I think Pepple would still only make the bench.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

That’s tripe. The striker issue has been there all season and the fact Pepple rarely starts says pretty much all you need to know.

The post wasn’t about the striker issue it was about “pile on’s” on this and other forums, so far this season we’ve had “experts” going after Clifton, JMD, Efete and now Pepple.

Quoted from Rick12

I get the frustration by fans eg work hard all week and just want what's best for their team come Saturday but must be hard for the youngsters especially who are still developing. Constructive criticism is the way to go I feel especially when you see players who are trying to improve.

Agreed, but people like to start a movement don’t they?

For me, Pepple is coming off as a player who needs that first goal to relax him and take the weight off his shoulders. After all, he's come over from Canada where he was scoring well, thrown into men's English lower-level football and struggling to find the net. He's clearly got the ability and he's shown it at times with his hold-up play and movement.

Didn't he assist Clifton at Walsall for one of his goals?

Quoted from HertsGTFC

The post wasn’t about the striker issue it was about “pile on’s” on this and other forums, so far this season we’ve had “experts” going after Clifton, JMD, Efete and now Pepple.

We’ve signed at least two strikers, maybe three, that the manager clearly doesn’t rate. I don’t see a pile on, I see it as opinion bordering on fact.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

We’ve signed at least two strikers, maybe three, that the manager clearly doesn’t rate. I don’t see a pile on, I see it as opinion bordering on fact.

How do you know Hurst doesn't rate them? The way we are set up to play at the moment, Taylor is the best man for the job, but that doesn't mean he doesn't rate the rest of them.

Pepple is a strange one…

I can’t decide if he’s absolutely flipping useless or if he just needs some decent coaching and a goal to get some confidence.

I don’t doubt work rate, desire and so forth but what we’ve seen so far has been chaotic to some extent but in some cases, impactful.

I do feel for the lad having come from another country and then the club he thinks he’s going to sending him to another before he’s even turned up for training so to speak. That’s got to take a while to adjust to.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

We’ve signed at least two strikers, maybe three, that the manager clearly doesn’t rate. I don’t see a pile on, I see it as opinion bordering on fact.

What an overstatement. ‘Clearly doesn’t rate’ is not ‘bordering on fact’, it’s your characteristic opinion.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

We’ve signed at least two strikers, maybe three, that the manager clearly doesn’t rate. I don’t see a pile on, I see it as opinion bordering on fact.

Your opinion.

Quoted from chaos33

What an overstatement. ‘Clearly doesn’t rate’ is not ‘bordering on fact’, it’s your characteristic opinion.

Maybe. I just look at the selections and Pepple, Orsi and Simmonds have barely started a league game.

Quoted from aldi_01

Pepple is a strange one…

I can’t decide if he’s absolutely flipping useless or if he just needs some decent coaching and a goal to get some confidence.

I don’t doubt work rate, desire and so forth but what we’ve seen so far has been chaotic to some extent but in some cases, impactful.

I do feel for the lad having come from another country and then the club he thinks he’s going to sending him to another before he’s even turned up for training so to speak. That’s got to take a while to adjust to.

He looks like the abundance of strikers who are physical and cause problems but have no real footballing talent. His finishing and passing is poor. I said after the first game he played that that was what he looked like, and coming from Canada which is an incredibly low level, it's not surprising.

What he's missing is coachable, but whether he has the talent to learn it or not will only be told with time. I'd just rather we sign somebody who looks half up to the job right now, because Taylor isn't particularly effective now everybody knows how we play and we have no alternative.

Quoted from chaos33

What an overstatement. ‘Clearly doesn’t rate’ is not ‘bordering on fact’, it’s your characteristic opinion.

I think they’ve started two League games between three of them.

The facts are that Luton saw something in the lad and judging by the way that club have risen over the last few seasons, I think we have to trust their judgement. Of course he doesn't look up to the task of leading the line in League 2: he's a young pro learning his trade. He may well develop into a very useful player one day, or he may not, but to say he's out of his depth is plain stupid.

I also don't agree that PH doesn't rate any of the strikers he has signed. I am a bit baffled at the lack of game time for Orsi but am not privy to his circumstances or the reasons he isn't getting more game time. You could make the same argument for any of the players that don't get regular starts, like Amos, Cropper, Wearne etc. It's a squad game and you play your best players if available. Maher came here with a great reputation but can't break into the side because of the form of others. It's not because PH doesn't rate him.

We are clearly lacking strength in depth in the forward areas, anyone can see that, but I don't think it is for the want of trying. We have ended up weak in that area and it needs addressing, but I doubt PH set out to have 2 or 3 young pro forwards in the squad at the same time. His targets clearly went elsewhere, and he had to get what he could get.

Looks like we will have to limp on until Jan.

Quoted from BrMarin

You are 100% correct. Except most people on here believe we got a fantastic deal despite not being "privvy" to the undisclosed details. Unless an adequate replacement is found then who's to say Luton haven't had our pants down?

But the situation in terms of finding a replacement was always going to arise at some point.  There's no way McAtee was staying beyond this season.  He was either going in the summer transfer window, in Jan 23 or June 23.

If getting a fee and getting him back on loan is having our pants down, I dread to think what a bad deal would have looked like.  His injury is what it is.  Regardless if he is in the final year of his contract, loaned back to us, just signed a five-year extension...it's a major blow.  Very few teams can cope with the loss of their best player and have an adequate replacement waiting on the sidelines to take his place.

If I'm going to be critical, the writing was on the wall for a long time and we perhaps should have lined a replacement up in the summer.  That said though, perhaps getting McAtee back on loan was always the plan and that we weren't prepared to sell without that clause inserted.  In such case are we going to sign a McAtee clone and then play both of them?

Pepple, Simmonds and Orsi are, at this minute in time, not working out.  In the case of the two lads on loan from higher up, that's always going to be a major risk.  If I went back through the last 15 or so years of young lads, especially strikers, who have come on loan here from a higher level and made an impact I probably wouldn't need my second hand.  Purely from memory I'm genuinely struggling to think of anyone beyond Martin Paterson.  There's a few who have had fleeting impact but none who have really made a mark.  I think that's the case for all clubs at this level, reflected by the huge drop off of young lads once they leave the safety of the Academy system.

Orsi is a different case and arguably more disappointing.  What disappoints me the most is that it didn't work out for him at Harrogate because of the difference in system.  He's not a target man and they could only offer him that role.  Yet we're effectively doing the same thing here.  The system he needs isn't one we use or look likely to use, which makes the signing of him seem bizarre.

Richardson is one who I think can do the McAtee role, when he's given that role (or something similar) he's looked effective.  Yet Hurst seems reluctant to deploy him on a consistent basis.  Which brings it back to this near obsession with Taylor on his own and then a packed midfield around him.  Loads of energy and running but not a lot of creativity, even the most creative midfielder we have (Hunt) is struggling to get in the side.  I completely get the need for that energetic midfield and I always think we look stronger with the extra man in the middle, but it's to the detriment of the attacking side of our game.

3 at the back looks the logical way to solve both problems to me, but as we saw at Hartlepool you can play with 3 at the back and still be toothless and ineffective.  You've got to have the right players in that system.  To my mind we've got one guy who's capable of playing left wingback and one guy capable of playing right wingback, neither of whom were used in those roles on Saturday.  It also didn't help that we were well off the races, tactical errors later on in the game or not.

Quoted from diehardmariner

But the situation in terms of finding a replacement was always going to arise at some point.  There's no way McAtee was staying beyond this season.  He was either going in the summer transfer window, in Jan 23 or June 23.

If getting a fee and getting him back on loan is having our pants down, I dread to think what a bad deal would have looked like.  His injury is what it is.  Regardless if he is in the final year of his contract, loaned back to us, just signed a five-year extension...it's a major blow.  Very few teams can cope with the loss of their best player and have an adequate replacement waiting on the sidelines to take his place.

If I'm going to be critical, the writing was on the wall for a long time and we perhaps should have lined a replacement up in the summer.  That said though, perhaps getting McAtee back on loan was always the plan and that we weren't prepared to sell without that clause inserted.  In such case are we going to sign a McAtee clone and then play both of them?

Pepple, Simmonds and Orsi are, at this minute in time, not working out.  In the case of the two lads on loan from higher up, that's always going to be a major risk.  If I went back through the last 15 or so years of young lads, especially strikers, who have come on loan here from a higher level and made an impact I probably wouldn't need my second hand.  Purely from memory I'm genuinely struggling to think of anyone beyond Martin Paterson.  There's a few who have had fleeting impact but none who have really made a mark.  I think that's the case for all clubs at this level, reflected by the huge drop off of young lads once they leave the safety of the Academy system.

Orsi is a different case and arguably more disappointing.  What disappoints me the most is that it didn't work out for him at Harrogate because of the difference in system.  He's not a target man and they could only offer him that role.  Yet we're effectively doing the same thing here.  The system he needs isn't one we use or look likely to use, which makes the signing of him seem bizarre.

Richardson is one who I think can do the McAtee role, when he's given that role (or something similar) he's looked effective.  Yet Hurst seems reluctant to deploy him on a consistent basis.  Which brings it back to this near obsession with Taylor on his own and then a packed midfield around him.  Loads of energy and running but not a lot of creativity, even the most creative midfielder we have (Hunt) is struggling to get in the side.  I completely get the need for that energetic midfield and I always think we look stronger with the extra man in the middle, but it's to the detriment of the attacking side of our game.

3 at the back looks the logical way to solve both problems to me, but as we saw at Hartlepool you can play with 3 at the back and still be toothless and ineffective.  You've got to have the right players in that system.  To my mind we've got one guy who's capable of playing left wingback and one guy capable of playing right wingback, neither of whom were used in those roles on Saturday.  It also didn't help that we were well off the races, tactical errors later on in the game or not.

Efete played well on Saturday, especially in the first 30 minutes, he was our main attacking threat. It's not his fault that when he got forwards there were loads of defenders and no attackers. It makes him look indecisive, but a L2 player isn't going to find the killer ball to one attacker very often. He's been fairly solid defensively for most of the season too. His criticism is harsh other than a couple of poor games, he's been largely more consistent than Glennon, who was been poor defensively.

Quoted from ginnywings

The facts are that Luton saw something in the lad and judging by the way that club have risen over the last few seasons, I think we have to trust their judgement. Of course he doesn't look up to the task of leading the line in League 2: he's a young pro learning his trade. He may well develop into a very useful player one day, or he may not, but to say he's out of his depth is plain stupid.

I also don't agree that PH doesn't rate any of the strikers he has signed. I am a bit baffled at the lack of game time for Orsi but am not privy to his circumstances or the reasons he isn't getting more game time. You could make the same argument for any of the players that don't get regular starts, like Amos, Cropper, Wearne etc. It's a squad game and you play your best players if available. Maher came here with a great reputation but can't break into the side because of the form of others. It's not because PH doesn't rate him.

We are clearly lacking strength in depth in the forward areas, anyone can see that, but I don't think it is for the want of trying. We have ended up weak in that area and it needs addressing, but I doubt PH set out to have 2 or 3 young pro forwards in the squad at the same time. His targets clearly went elsewhere, and he had to get what he could get.

Looks like we will have to limp on until Jan.

I think your penultimate paragraph nails it. Hurst was gambling some of his main targets would in fact realise they had set their sights too high, and would have to sign or be left on the shelf. Either they were left on the shelf or they were signed by clubs they preferred, so Hurst had to make do with youngsters.

To be honest, if we are not going to pay them a premium rate to tempt them then I think the strategy of waiting in the hope they don't get a better offer is unlikely to come to fruition. Surely we can tempt a league 2 quality striker with even a reasonable goal tally which would have made a huge difference?

I agree, he's had a few stinkers that seem to have masked a lot of opinions on him this season.

But I don't think he's a wingback.  Whilst he got into decent positions on Saturday and you're absolutely right in that he was let down by those who made themselves available, his crossing isn't good enough to be the only one delivering from that side.

Fair point on Glennon.  After a fine start I think he's tailed off, although this recent lengthy bout of illness makes me wonder if it's something that's lingered for a while.

This also raises a good counter against going to a wingback system, that it's all well having an XI that can play it.  But it's no good if you can't do it because of one injury/out of form player.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I agree, he's had a few stinkers that seem to have masked a lot of opinions on him this season.

But I don't think he's a wingback.  Whilst he got into decent positions on Saturday and you're absolutely right in that he was let down by those who made themselves available, his crossing isn't good enough to be the only one delivering from that side.

Fair point on Glennon.  After a fine start I think he's tailed off, although this recent lengthy bout of illness makes me wonder if it's something that's lingered for a while.

This also raises a good counter against going to a wingback system, that it's all well having an XI that can play it.  But it's no good if you can't do it because of one injury/out of form player.

Didn’t Harry play wing back v Salford and make a very good job of it?

Only an opinion, but I see Clifton and Glenno as wing backs and Efete and Amos as fullbacks.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I think your penultimate paragraph nails it. Hurst was gambling some of his main targets would in fact realise they had set their sights too high, and would have to sign or be left on the shelf. Either they were left on the shelf or they were signed by clubs they preferred, so Hurst had to make do with youngsters.

To be honest, if we are not going to pay them a premium rate to tempt them then I think the strategy of waiting in the hope they don't get a better offer is unlikely to come to fruition. Surely we can tempt a league 2 quality striker with even a reasonable goal tally which would have made a huge difference?

So of the players who were top scoring in this league last year:

Dom Telford - went to Crawley this summer, rumoured to be on a bloody good whack too.
Matthew Stevens - Gone up a level with FGR and injures since April with a knee injury
Jamile Matt - Went up with FGR and back in their squad after injury
Harry McKirdy - Signed for Hibs, who beat off interest from Championship clubs
Aaron Collins - Went up with Bristol Rovers, has played nearly every minute this season - scoring 9 and assisting 6,
Davis Keillor-Dunn - Relegated with Oldham but got a transfer to League One Burton, started all but one of their games with 6 goals.  More of a midfielder than a striker too.
Sam Hoskins - Still at Northampton and looked quality when they played here.  Widely regarded as one of the best at this level.  12 goals in 13 games so far.  Can't even imagine what he's on or what he would cost.
Matt Jay - Went up with Exeter - played the majority of their games this season.  Captain on a few occasions.  Only played for a non-South West club once and that was on loan in 2015/16.
Freddie Sears - Scored just one goal in 15 this season.  Rooted in the South East.
Jack Diamond - Returned to parent club Sunderland, sold to League One Lincoln.  More of a winger but scored 4 in 9 games.

I don't think it's as simple as just picking someone out of the scoring charts and saying 'we'll have him'.  A lot of the names on that list have gone up a level or will be well out of our price range.  There's a genuine lack of goalscorers about at the minute, far less ones of decent quality than clubs with desires to bring one in.

Even in the Conference, Paul Mullin and Ollie Palmer would blow our budget out the water and then some.  Nicke Kabamba is having the season of his life but has done nothing of note previously, including at this level.  Joe Nuttall down the road, again quite poor record prior to this season.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Didn’t Harry play wing back v Salford and make a very good job of it?

Only an opinion, but I see Clifton and Glenno as wing backs and Efete and Amos as fullbacks.

Yep, that's my point too. I think Amos arguably more capable of playing wingback than Efete is, largely based on a better delivery into the box.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Yep, that's my point too. I think Amos arguably more capable of playing wingback than Efete is, largely based on a better delivery into the box.

At Hartlepool Efete, especially in the first half, got into some very good advanced positions but the quality of his crossing was, let's be charitable, mixed.

Quoted from diehardmariner

So of the players who were top scoring in this league last year:

Dom Telford - went to Crawley this summer, rumoured to be on a bloody good whack too.
Matthew Stevens - Gone up a level with FGR and injures since April with a knee injury
Jamile Matt - Went up with FGR and back in their squad after injury
Harry McKirdy - Signed for Hibs, who beat off interest from Championship clubs
Aaron Collins - Went up with Bristol Rovers, has played nearly every minute this season - scoring 9 and assisting 6,
Davis Keillor-Dunn - Relegated with Oldham but got a transfer to League One Burton, started all but one of their games with 6 goals.  More of a midfielder than a striker too.
Sam Hoskins - Still at Northampton and looked quality when they played here.  Widely regarded as one of the best at this level.  12 goals in 13 games so far.  Can't even imagine what he's on or what he would cost.
Matt Jay - Went up with Exeter - played the majority of their games this season.  Captain on a few occasions.  Only played for a non-South West club once and that was on loan in 2015/16.
Freddie Sears - Scored just one goal in 15 this season.  Rooted in the South East.
Jack Diamond - Returned to parent club Sunderland, sold to League One Lincoln.  More of a winger but scored 4 in 9 games.

I don't think it's as simple as just picking someone out of the scoring charts and saying 'we'll have him'.  A lot of the names on that list have gone up a level or will be well out of our price range.  There's a genuine lack of goalscorers about at the minute, far less ones of decent quality than clubs with desires to bring one in.

Even in the Conference, Paul Mullin and Ollie Palmer would blow our budget out the water and then some.  Nicke Kabamba is having the season of his life but has done nothing of note previously, including at this level.  Joe Nuttall down the road, again quite poor record prior to this season.

Nobody is saying it is easy, far from it but my point stands; we need to financially compete for a striker that other clubs covet. We have got everything in place - great fan base (and great revenue) great away support, good owners, an astute manager and a half decent team. If we don't sign somebody for that number 9 shirt that is amongst our top targets then that will be disappointing.

I have to say Pepple doesn’t look like a footballer and I’ve seen many examples of why that is over the season. However, Saturday wasn’t one of them but he seems to have got the most stick for that one.

He held the ball up far better than Taylor did on Saturday, although his distribution with it was admittedly weak but we can’t be singing the praises of Taylor who struggles to hold it for more than a second whilst bashing a 19 year old who’s still learning.

Mcatee cant be far off as he played today

https://twitter.com/johnmcatee161/status/1587444299251187714?s=20&t=ZfRNGzb8g0bmhgzpCHvJSw

Quoted from psgmariner

Mcatee cant be far off as he played today

https://twitter.com/johnmcatee161/status/1587444299251187714?s=20&t=ZfRNGzb8g0bmhgzpCHvJSw

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

Well, that's encouraging news. Played a game and scored a couple.

Quoted from pontoonlew

I have to say Pepple doesn’t look like a footballer and I’ve seen many examples of why that is over the season. However, Saturday wasn’t one of them but he seems to have got the most stick for that one.

He held the ball up far better than Taylor did on Saturday, although his distribution with it was admittedly weak but we can’t be singing the praises of Taylor who struggles to hold it for more than a second whilst bashing a 19 year old who’s still learning.

in your opinion.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Nobody is saying it is easy, far from it but my point stands; we need to financially compete for a striker that other clubs covet. We have got everything in place - great fan base (and great revenue) great away support, good owners, an astute manager and a half decent team. If we don't sign somebody for that number 9 shirt that is amongst our top targets then that will be disappointing.

But who do you think we can financially compete with?

Of that list, I appreciate it's not the only list, there's Telford, Hoskins and Sears who are still at this level.  Crawley will have spent a fortune on Telford in a Football Manager type approach towards management via their Crypto-ownership.  Northampton blew us out the water when it came to Ben Fox, a midfielder who spent 50% of the previous season injured.  Sears is arguably the only one who was within our financial grasp, but location works against us and his record this season is pretty poor anyway.

Even at the level below there's absolutely stupid money chucked about.  There's having a competitive budget and then there is financial suicide.  An ethos of 1878 is that we operate within our means.  I'll be honest and say I don't know what those means are, but I don't think it stretches to players with decent records at this level unless there's an issue like injury record, age etc.  Our options are, to my mind anyway, develop someone in house or find a rough diamond to develop.

Quoted from diehardmariner

But who do you think we can financially compete with?

Of that list, I appreciate it's not the only list, there's Telford, Hoskins and Sears who are still at this level.  Crawley will have spent a fortune on Telford in a Football Manager type approach towards management via their Crypto-ownership.  Northampton blew us out the water when it came to Ben Fox, a midfielder who spent 50% of the previous season injured.  Sears is arguably the only one who was within our financial grasp, but location works against us and his record this season is pretty poor anyway.

Even at the level below there's absolutely stupid money chucked about.  There's having a competitive budget and then there is financial suicide.  An ethos of 1878 is that we operate within our means.  I'll be honest and say I don't know what those means are, but I don't think it stretches to players with decent records at this level unless there's an issue like injury record, age etc.  Our options are, to my mind anyway, develop someone in house or find a rough diamond to develop.

decent post, I think the bit in bold is where we are now to be honest.

Quoted from diehardmariner

But who do you think we can financially compete with?

Of that list, I appreciate it's not the only list, there's Telford, Hoskins and Sears who are still at this level.  Crawley will have spent a fortune on Telford in a Football Manager type approach towards management via their Crypto-ownership.  Northampton blew us out the water when it came to Ben Fox, a midfielder who spent 50% of the previous season injured.  Sears is arguably the only one who was within our financial grasp, but location works against us and his record this season is pretty poor anyway.

Even at the level below there's absolutely stupid money chucked about.  There's having a competitive budget and then there is financial suicide.  An ethos of 1878 is that we operate within our means.  I'll be honest and say I don't know what those means are, but I don't think it stretches to players with decent records at this level unless there's an issue like injury record, age etc.  Our options are, to my mind anyway, develop someone in house or find a rough diamond to develop.

I honestly see your well-made points, but at some juncture, we will have to accept the reality that if we don't compete financially for the players that others want in the striking department then it will be difficult, perhaps not impossible but very difficult to compete higher than we are.

It is another dilemma for the owners to grapple with. In league 2 we are right up there with the amount of season ticket holders, attendances and presumably income and 1878 have repeatedly said they will always listen to the manager regarding players. They have also talked about having offers of investment so at some point we are going to have to break out from the attitude we can't compete in league 2(grateful though I am to be in league 2!)

I will also say I think a bit more concrete news from the owners about their plans would not go amiss. They must have explored the options on how to take the club forward by now with some practical steps instead of the important but generic culture of the club vibes.

Last year at this time we had somewhere in the region of 6 to 10 different goalscorers and few cared if we had a No 9 ( although the shirt was filled later ). The expectations at the start of that season were mid-table and consolidation. Well as we know that didn't happen.

Now we still don't have a No9 and the lack of a goalscorer is evident to all. Our expectations are still the same though midtable and consolidation. Barrow and Hartlepool's games were dire but we are still only 4 points off the playoff places after a third of the season.

When we look at the squad it is basically last year's minus 1 or 2 with some additional players, some of whom cannot make a regular starting place on the team sheet. So in essence our NL squad have upped a gear for League 2. Harry and Max for example.

Hurst did say he want a striker in the summer transfer window but only Hurst and the club know why it didn't happen, so he took a punt on some whom he might develop which doesn't happen overnight. 1878 say they want to live within their means and 20+ miles away shows what is happening to a former championship club that didn't.

Plymouth, potentially a future championship club, will show us on Saturday have much we have to catch up, both on and off the field. Let us not forget they do not have an ideal location, like Town, to attract players, but they do!

Patience, I think, is the key for us. A fit McAtee coming back soon, as we have good home and away supporters, good ownership and hopefully a new striker for a new years present.

Without saying that either are world beaters, it's worth noting that Bradford had Angol and Oliver on their bench the other week. Both are capable at this level.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Without saying that either are world beaters, it's worth noting that Bradford had Angol and Oliver on their bench the other week. Both are capable at this level.

I think Angol has turned us down a couple of times hasn't he?

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I think Angol has turned us down a couple of times hasn't he?

I don’t know. I thought he improved Bradford when he came on.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I don’t know. I thought he improved Bradford when he came on.

He's decent for sure, I think PH tried to get him when he came back.

Jolley tried to sign him too

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Without saying that either are world beaters, it's worth noting that Bradford had Angol and Oliver on their bench the other week. Both are capable at this level.

They also have considerably more fans and I assume more money to spend on players than we do. They are also a bigger and more attractive club than we are, with the added bonus of a more attractive catchment area and a high profile manager.

I'd be surprised if they didn't have a better squad than us, but we still outplayed them second half.

Quoted from ginnywings

They also have considerably more fans and I assume more money to spend on players than we do. They are also a bigger and more attractive club than we are, with the added bonus of a more attractive catchment area and a high profile manager.

I'd be surprised if they didn't have a better squad than us, but we still outplayed them second half.

If you're a striker you'd also think that playing for Hughes may improve your game a bit as well and open up bigger career options.

Quoted from Hagrid

in your opinion.

I’m not sure the time a player keeps a ball at his feet can be an ‘opinion’, given it’s a factual event. Watch the game back and you’ll see that Pepple kept the ball at his feet when holding it up for longer than Taylor did at any point, that’ll be an absolute fact.

Quoted from DB

Last year at this time we had somewhere in the region of 6 to 10 different goalscorers and few cared if we had a No 9 ( although the shirt was filled later ). The expectations at the start of that season were mid-table and consolidation. Well as we know that didn't happen.

Now we still don't have a No9 and the lack of a goalscorer is evident to all. Our expectations are still the same though midtable and consolidation. Barrow and Hartlepool's games were dire but we are still only 4 points off the playoff places after a third of the season.

When we look at the squad it is basically last year's minus 1 or 2 with some additional players, some of whom cannot make a regular starting place on the team sheet. So in essence our NL squad have upped a gear for League 2. Harry and Max for example.

Hurst did say he want a striker in the summer transfer window but only Hurst and the club know why it didn't happen, so he took a punt on some whom he might develop which doesn't happen overnight. 1878 say they want to live within their means and 20+ miles away shows what is happening to a former championship club that didn't.

Plymouth, potentially a future championship club, will show us on Saturday have much we have to catch up, both on and off the field. Let us not forget they do not have an ideal location, like Town, to attract players, but they do!

Patience, I think, is the key for us. A fit McAtee coming back soon, as we have good home and away supporters, good ownership and hopefully a new striker for a new years present.

The voice of reason as ever DB, also worth noting that before the Bradford game which most considered a decent result we'd scored 3 goals in the two games before that. Prior to last week our GD which is arguably the most important bit wasn't too far away from the rest of the teams in and around us and we're 4 points off the play off's with around a 3rd of the season gone.

Quoted from pontoonlew

I’m not sure the time a player keeps a ball at his feet can be an ‘opinion’, given it’s a factual event. Watch the game back and you’ll see that Pepple kept the ball at his feet when holding it up for longer than Taylor did at any point, that’ll be an absolute fact.

I watched the game, your obsession with trying to prove a point about Taylor is almost as bizarre as your obsession with Hurst last season.

Point to me is Taylor is our best striker by a mile, he is essential to the way we play, our replacements arent anywhere near good enough, we conceded both goals with Taylor off the pitch.

Quoted from Hagrid

I watched the game, your obsession with trying to prove a point about Taylor is almost as bizarre as your obsession with Hurst last season.

Point to me is Taylor is our best striker by a mile, he is essential to the way we play, our replacements arent anywhere near good enough, we conceded both goals with Taylor off the pitch.

Everyone seems a bit obsessed about an alternative to Taylor. Given that PH has played with Taylor as a pivot in nearly every game since the beginning of last season ought to tell everyone (including the opponents) how much he rates him and how important he is to our playing style.

Quoted from Hagrid

I watched the game, your obsession with trying to prove a point about Taylor is almost as bizarre as your obsession with Hurst last season.

Point to me is Taylor is our best striker by a mile, he is essential to the way we play, our replacements arent anywhere near good enough, we conceded both goals with Taylor off the pitch.

You always call it an ‘obsession’ when somebody dares to question a player you’re a big fan of and get weirdly defensive and teary over it.

Taylor is indeed our best striker, but it’s hardly a high bar is it? He’s been poor the past 3 games, great in others this season, but if you can’t see that he’s currently struggling to hold the ball up you’re either watching the game with your head in your bottom or you’re watching it with rose tinted specs on.

Quoted from sonofmadeleymariner

Didn't he assist Clifton at Walsall for one of his goals?

He did ok at rochdale driving forward he won the corner that we scored the winner from. He got the assist for taylor when he battled and taylor took it and scored against some team I can't remember.

Against hartlepool I thought he did OK, a bit different to taylor. He totally isn't ready to lead the line and not sure whether he ever will be, obviously needs coaching but I think he's a useful squad player at the mo to come on as sub. Has size and strength but very raw skills wise.

I personally far prefer him to simmonds.

Quoted from pontoonlew

You always call it an ‘obsession’ when somebody dares to question a player you’re a big fan of and get weirdly defensive and teary over it.

Taylor is indeed our best striker, but it’s hardly a high bar is it? He’s been poor the past 3 games, great in others this season, but if you can’t see that he’s currently struggling to hold the ball up you’re either watching the game with your head in your bottom or you’re watching it with rose tinted specs on.

Nah i’m just sick to death of folk not understanding what he brings to the side. I’m watching a player do his constant best to battle against 2 centre backs for 90 mins week after week because we are too slow to get any support up to him. He flicks it on, he holds it up, he does the best he can with absolutely intercourse all support

Quoted from Hagrid

Nah i’m just sick to death of folk not understanding what he brings to the side. I’m watching a player do his constant best to battle against 2 centre backs for 90 mins week after week because we are too slow to get any support up to him. He flicks it on, he holds it up, he does the best he can with absolutely intercourse all support

I completely understand what he brings, but it’s an absolute fact that recently he’s not been doing those things enough, especially the holding up.

I listen to a lot of football podcasts and twice recently, Owen Coyle & Neil Shipperley (before he got caught waving his member at passers by) have cited how a target man must be able to hold up the ball long enough to allow the support to come. Shipperley in particular said he needed just 5 seconds on the ball and that really stood out to me. I watched on Saturday with that ‘5 second rule’ in mind and it stood out a mile that he barely managed 1-2. If Taylor’s not getting ‘intercourse all support’ it’s because he’s not holding it for long enough.

I like Taylor, when he’s on it, he’s on it but I’ve seen much better target men against us this season and I think he’ll know he’s not been at a decent level recently. We’re certainly going to need more if we’re to progress, IMO.

Quoted from pontoonlew

I completely understand what he brings, but it’s an absolute fact that recently he’s not been doing those things enough, especially the holding up.

I listen to a lot of football podcasts and twice recently, Owen Coyle & Neil Shipperley (before he got caught waving his member at passers by) have cited how a target man must be able to hold up the ball long enough to allow the support to come. Shipperley in particular said he needed just 5 seconds on the ball and that really stood out to me. I watched on Saturday with that ‘5 second rule’ in mind and it stood out a mile that he barely managed 1-2. If Taylor’s not getting ‘intercourse all support’ it’s because he’s not holding it for long enough.

I like Taylor, when he’s on it, he’s on it but I’ve seen much better target men against us this season and I think he’ll know he’s not been at a decent level recently. We’re certainly going to need more if we’re to progress, IMO.

I’m still of the opinion that it’s as much about our lack of movement off the ball as anything. How come McAtee can get close to Taylor when all of his replacements can’t?

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I’m still of the opinion that it’s as much about our lack of movement off the ball as anything. How come McAtee can get close to Taylor when all of his replacements can’t?

Well McAtee is a special player and IMO Taylor was much better last season than he has been recently, absolutely no doubt the movement of some isn’t helping either

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I honestly see your well-made points, but at some juncture, we will have to accept the reality that if we don't compete financially for the players that others want in the striking department then it will be difficult, perhaps not impossible but very difficult to compete higher than we are.

It is another dilemma for the owners to grapple with. In league 2 we are right up there with the amount of season ticket holders, attendances and presumably income and 1878 have repeatedly said they will always listen to the manager regarding players. They have also talked about having offers of investment so at some point we are going to have to break out from the attitude we can't compete in league 2(grateful though I am to be in league 2!)

I will also say I think a bit more concrete news from the owners about their plans would not go amiss. They must have explored the options on how to take the club forward by now with some practical steps instead of the important but generic culture of the club vibes.

Aye, I'm at the point where I'm leaning towards wanting to see something of a return on investment from the fans (I include 1878 in that too).  I'm all for sustainability and the culture stuff.  I honestly think a strong culture can take you a long, long way.  But I would argue we need a bit more boldness in our approach.

In their defence, 1878 might be looking at the current surge in season tickets as just a phase.  If we're back down to 4500 gates next season and we've signed a couple of guys on big money with 3-year-contracts, that doesn't really look sustainable does it?

It's a very, very tight line between ambition and just pissing money up the wall.  My gut feeling remains that we're not all that far off achieving something with this group of players.  Also that the missing parts will come because of the way we're run as a club, from top to bottom.  That could well be that we get loaned that special player because of how we treat the young lads, or how we develop them and how we help their development as people.  Or it could be a player who buys into what we want to do as a club.  I don't think us going out and getting a Mullin type is how we'll achieve real success.

Quoted from diehardmariner

But who do you think we can financially compete with?

Of that list, I appreciate it's not the only list, there's Telford, Hoskins and Sears who are still at this level.  Crawley will have spent a fortune on Telford in a Football Manager type approach towards management via their Crypto-ownership.  Northampton blew us out the water when it came to Ben Fox, a midfielder who spent 50% of the previous season injured.  Sears is arguably the only one who was within our financial grasp, but location works against us and his record this season is pretty poor anyway.

Even at the level below there's absolutely stupid money chucked about.  There's having a competitive budget and then there is financial suicide.  An ethos of 1878 is that we operate within our means.  I'll be honest and say I don't know what those means are, but I don't think it stretches to players with decent records at this level unless there's an issue like injury record, age etc.  Our options are, to my mind anyway, develop someone in house or find a rough diamond to develop.

Telford been sub last few games for crawley

Quoted from pontoonlew

Well McAtee is a special player and IMO Taylor was much better last season than he has been recently, absolutely no doubt the movement of some isn’t helping either

Taylor would obviously look better with McAtee alongside him. Isn’t that the point?

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Taylor would obviously look better with McAtee alongside him. Isn’t that the point?

Well, no because at the minute McAtee isn’t playing and in May he’ll be gone permanently, I’d quite like a forward capable of consistently performing without needing McAtee

Quoted from pontoonlew

Well, no because at the minute McAtee isn’t playing and in May he’ll be gone permanently, I’d quite like a forward capable of consistently performing without needing McAtee

And Taylor will be 35 next season. In reality we'll need an entire new front line.

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

And Taylor will be 35 next season. In reality we'll need an entire new front line.

We're going to need 3 new forwards before next August. Taylor may hang around for one more year but he shouldn't be a starter aged 35 in L2, McAtee will be gone permanently, Bim, Richardson and Simmonds will have returned to their parent clubs, Simmonds likely gone in Jan (question marks about whether Simmonds is up to it anyway). Orsi is still an unknown quantity given the few opportunities he's had.

Hopefully, he can find a Taylor replacement/upgrade in January but it's notoriously hard to make good signings in January and given we didn't sign anyone in the summer, I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't know if Simmonds is the stop gap for McAtee given the lengths of loans but I wouldn't be surprised if he signs another forward as well, especially with Keirnan also heading back.

Quoted from Mariner_09

We're going to need 3 new forwards before next August. Taylor may hang around for one more year but he shouldn't be a starter aged 35 in L2, McAtee will be gone permanently, Bim, Richardson and Simmonds will have returned to their parent clubs, Simmonds likely gone in Jan (question marks about whether Simmonds is up to it anyway). Orsi is still an unknown quantity given the few opportunities he's had.

Hopefully, he can find a Taylor replacement/upgrade in January but it's notoriously hard to make good signings in January and given we didn't sign anyone in the summer, I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't know if Simmonds is the stop gap for McAtee given the lengths of loans but I wouldn't be surprised if he signs another forward as well, especially with Keirnan also heading back.

I agree with what you've said but don't forget we did sign Orsi on a permanent transfer from Harrogate.