GTFC fan's ownership

I have consistently argued on here about the benefits of fans owning football clubs. There have been some in support of it, but mainly it's about "we can't service the loans etc"

I sense the tide is slowly but surely turning towards fans possibly now being in favour of such a move? The pronouncements from BP about bullying, their backing of the Checkatrade Trophy, little comment on Bragate and numerous other PR gaffes highlight the problems of the kind of control any individual can hold over a club when the views of the fans are not taken into account. I think it's fair to say had the Trust been running the club on behalf of the fans then at the very least there would have been some kind of consultation about all such issues. True, some of the things wouldn't have changed, we'd still be playing in the Checkatrade Trophy, and the EFL would probably have ignored please made by the Trust in terms of Bragate, but at least the fans would be comforted by the fact that THEIR club was speaking out on THEIR behalf.

Fan ownership has to come sometime. If it's good enough for La Liga and the Bundesliga it's time has surely come for Town?

Quoted from jock dock tower

I have consistently argued on here about the benefits of fans owning football clubs. There have been some in support of it, but mainly it's about "we can't service the loans etc"

I sense the tide is slowly but surely turning towards fans possibly now being in favour of such a move? The pronouncements from BP about bullying, their backing of the Checkatrade Trophy, little comment on Bragate and numerous other PR gaffes highlight the problems of the kind of control any individual can hold over a club when the views of the fans are not taken into account. I think it's fair to say had the Trust been running the club on behalf of the fans then at the very least there would have been some kind of consultation about all such issues. True, some of the things wouldn't have changed, we'd still be playing in the Checkatrade Trophy, and the EFL would probably have ignored please made by the Trust in terms of Bragate, but at least the fans would be comforted by the fact that THEIR club was speaking out on THEIR behalf.

Fan ownership has to come sometime. If it's good enough for La Liga and the Bundesliga it's time has surely come for Town?

I do hope you're not trying to bully us in to accepting this Jock!  

All the people who have every run our club are GTFC fans (or were when they took the job on) to the best of my knowledge. It's not as though we have some foreign owner who doesn't have the club's interests at heart. Even if the Trust owned the club (laudable as the idea is) someone is still going to have to make the decisions, and that will be largely driven by finances rather than emotion, because that person's job is to settle the books.

All we need is around 2.5m to get the ball rolling then at least another 500k each season to cover losses ....

Quoted from moosey_club

All we need is around 2.5m to get the ball rolling then at least another 500k each season to cover losses ....

Last 2 years at least (can't be arsed to check further) we've made a profit so where did you get the 500k from?  

Edit over the last 7 years we have on average made a loss of 60k per year.

Quoted from GrimRob

All the people who have every run our club are GTFC fans (or were when they took the job on) to the best of my knowledge. It's not as though we have some foreign owner who doesn't have the club's interests at heart. Even if the Trust owned the club (laudable as the idea is) someone is still going to have to make the decisions, and that will be largely driven by finances rather than emotion, because that person's job is to settle the books.

Yes, and a damn sight more sensible the decisions will be. It won't be one man's ego trip. The board will be accountable.

I don’t think it would be possible for the Trust to own the club outright and that they would need benefactors or a consortium in order to be a success at FL level.

Quoted from GrimRob

All the people who have every run our club are GTFC fans (or were when they took the job on) to the best of my knowledge. It's not as though we have some foreign owner who doesn't have the club's interests at heart. Even if the Trust owned the club (laudable as the idea is) someone is still going to have to make the decisions, and that will be largely driven by finances rather than emotion, because that person's job is to settle the books.

It's alright being a fan and it's alright running a business but the last 15 years are living proof that the two are not mutually compatible in running the club of which you are a fan. By remaining silent on Bra-gate and then parading Steve Wraith as the club's spokesman on Checkatrade, John Fenty has, in the last two weeks, near as dammit stuck two fingers up at the very people who have kept GTFC afloat. I don't know how or why anyone can condone the last couple of weeks, he has displayed utter contempt for everything the fans stand for.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Last 2 years at least (can't be arsed to check further) we've made a profit so where did you get the 500k from?  

Rising attendances....Wembley play off final ....selling Bogle....do you see any of those scenarios coming up this season ?  Without those "football fortunes" we lose money.  JF and the directors cover those losses when they occur...as a fan owned entity we would have to cover those losses.
Having a whip round at the end of the season when the tax man wants paying isnt going to get us very far.  

Wonderful idea in theory...wholly impracticable and un workable for a League team IMO.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

It's alright being a fan and it's alright running a business but the last 15 years are living proof that the two are not mutually compatible in running the club of which you are a fan. By remaining silent on Bra-gate and then parading Steve Wraith as the club's spokesman on Checkatrade, John Fenty has, in the last two weeks, near as dammit stuck two fingers up at the very people who have kept GTFC afloat. I don't know how or why anyone can condone the last couple of weeks, he has displayed utter contempt for everything the fans stand for.

OK that's one instance of a person running the club. Numerous other people have run the club such as Huxford, Ramsden, Carr etc. There may have been bra-gate like incidents with the others, if there have I can't recall them.

Most football clubs are run by rich individuals. Most people (even on here) want to replace one rich fan such as JF with another rich man like (for the sake of argument) Ross rather than commnal ownership. I think fan ownership, like communism, sounds great on paper, but runs up against the problem of putting someone in charge who then becomes the decision maker (a de facto chairman).

Remember Ebbsfleet's great egalitarian scheme for collective ownership? It collapsed and they are now owned by a rich Kuwaiti!

Quoted from GrimRob

OK that's one instance of a person running the club. Numerous other people have run the club such as Huxford, Ramsden, Carr etc. There may have been bra-gate like incidents with the others, if there have I can't recall them.

Most football clubs are run by rich individuals. Most people (even on here) want to replace one rich fan such as JF with another rich man like (for the sake of argument) Ross rather than commnal ownership. I think fan ownership, like communism, sounds great on paper, but runs up against the problem of putting someone in charge who then becomes the decision maker (a de facto chairman).

Surely having a board with 5, 7, 9 members whatever, you put issues to the vote and each board member has an equal vote. Obviously, you have a chair, which we don't have now but they have the same voting power as each other member.  At present (correct me if I'm wrong) one share equals one vote which means JF can push through whatever he likes.

The stumbling block is always going to be raising the capital in the first place to oust JF and getting him to relinquish power.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

The stumbling block is always going to be raising the capital in the first place to oust JF and getting him to relinquish power.

Maybe a couple of us could use our massive influence and bully him into leaving?

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Surely having a board with 5, 7, 9 members whatever, you put issues to the vote and each board member has an equal vote. Obviously, you have a chair, which we don't have now but they have the same voting power as each other member.  At present (correct me if I'm wrong) one share equals one vote which means JF can push through whatever he likes.

The stumbling block is always going to be raising the capital in the first place to oust JF and getting him to relinquish power.

As far as I am aware the board vote is 1 vote per board member with a extra casting vote to the Chairman (none) if there is an equal vote.
Maybe the trust can confirm this.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

Surely having a board with 5, 7, 9 members whatever, you put issues to the vote and each board member has an equal vote. Obviously, you have a chair, which we don't have now but they have the same voting power as each other member.  At present (correct me if I'm wrong) one share equals one vote which means JF can push through whatever he likes.

The stumbling block is always going to be raising the capital in the first place to oust JF and getting him to relinquish power.

A group like The Fishy Five should run the club then?

Quoted from GrimRob

OK that's one instance of a person running the club. Numerous other people have run the club such as Huxford, Ramsden, Carr etc. There may have been bra-gate like incidents with the others, if there have I can't recall them.

Most football clubs are run by rich individuals. Most people (even on here) want to replace one rich fan such as JF with another rich man like (for the sake of argument) Ross rather than commnal ownership. I think fan ownership, like communism, sounds great on paper, but runs up against the problem of putting someone in charge who then becomes the decision maker (a de facto chairman).

Remember Ebbsfleet's great egalitarian scheme for collective ownership? It collapsed and they are now owned by a rich Kuwaiti!

(1) This thread was started by Jock who is calling for fan ownership. I agree with him. Not everyone does but I think it's time to start the debate.

(2) Ebbsfleet was a completely different model to ownership by a properly constituted Trust running a football club in the interests of the community. Ebbsfleet was a bunch a people who crowd-funded the acquisition of the football club, with each shareholder in the new company having a say in the team selection. That went mammaries up because you basically had a bunch of amateurs who knew nothing about football management and cared even less for Ebbsfleet (formerly Gravesend and Northfleet) and once things didn't go as they hoped started to disappear. It was the football equivalent of vanity publishing.

(3) Collective ownership - nothing says you can't put someone in charge. Most sensible proponents would agree that you need a board. A board of equals mind, not a majority shareholder and major creditor who calls the shots. And especially not one who doesn't defend the interests of his stakeholders and who threatens to take his pitch home with him if he doesn't get his way. The board appoint a manager for the football side and other specialists as appropriate. Nothing strange there.

Whoever owned the club would still get stick on here when things don’t go as expected.

Anyway the margin between profit and loss is quite small at Town so whoever came in would need to have some considerable resreves to cover any liabilities, big ask that.

Ok so I'm not as vocal as others but I do reflect a hell of a lot especially with close to heart topics like this. Look, we've been venting our concerns on here for a while about the current regime but is it time to constructively and formally issue them to the club?

Get our message out there and be heard. Is this what the trust would do on behalf of GTFC fishy?
Must be a platform to voice our concerns formally and adult like without going to the extremes of boycott and/protest.

If the formalities don't work then the club has forced us into plan B

Quoted from Rob_in_Grimsby

As far as I am aware the board vote is 1 vote per board member with a extra casting vote to the Chairman (none) if there is an equal vote.
Maybe the trust can confirm this.

That is my understanding, one seat one vote!

Is it an odd number on the board?
Fenty
Day
Chapman
Trust fella
Marley

Therefore provided they all vote one way or another there is no need for anyone to have casting vote

Quoted from Rob_in_Grimsby

As far as I am aware the board vote is 1 vote per board member with a extra casting vote to the Chairman (none) if there is an equal vote.
Maybe the trust can confirm this.

There cannot be an equal vote if there are an odd number of people on the board, which i think is the case. If you take the appointment of Woods for instance, i was told that JF and one other wanted Slade but Mike Parker wanted Woods and two other board members went with that. It's easy to say that JF makes all the decisions, but i don't think that is the case.

I discussed fan ownership as well and he was of the same mind as Moosey. Great idea in principle but not practical in reality.

Whoever ultimately runs the club there has to have a long term plan that is not fixed on short terminism

If it was said that in 5 years we could have a modern new stadium, a youth system towards the upper end of the academy system, producing players. A strategy of having 4/5 older experienced leaders in the squad but the others about getting youngsters through, either home produced or picked from the bigger boys when deemed not quite good enough for Prem/ Championship clubs.

The structure must be fully thought through and agreed. The first team manager can change but only if the new man buys into this plan, no deviation.

Above all the plan must be communicated, updated and the fans involved and educated as to the methods and aims of the plan.

It must have the community at its heart and needs skill to be effectively sold to the fan base.

If it means, at worst  we tread water for five years or so whilst the plan has a chance to bed in and produce then would YOU accept that?

I think I might despite maybe not having a huge time left to see if it works!

I I'm all for looking into it but it's not easy.. First thing I'd do is cut down the number of staff that sit in the office chatting away all day, that'll save 20k+ a year straight away

Quoted from MuddyWaters

It's alright being a fan and it's alright running a business but the last 15 years are living proof that the two are not mutually compatible in running the club of which you are a fan. By remaining silent on Bra-gate and then parading Steve Wraith as the club's spokesman on Checkatrade, John Fenty has, in the last two weeks, near as dammit stuck two fingers up at the very people who have kept GTFC afloat. I don't know how or why anyone can condone the last couple of weeks, he has displayed utter contempt for everything the fans stand for.

I have thought for a while based on the aftermath JF was embarrassed by the success of Operation Promotion because it was so fan driven and out of his control his statements regarding the fans and the Trust have gone quiet since.I think we have probably gone beyond the point of no return in terms of him being Chairman and working with the fans? The new ground if it came about would I feel almost certainly see JF ride off into the sunset and I don`t think that day can ever come soon enough.No more Mr Fenty JUST GO

If the Trust takes over and falls into difficulty who is going to come to our rescue. £100k that we raised for Promotion wouldn't go very far and I can't see us being able to raise more than that. We have to have someone standing by who is able to help when needed[and who WILL help] We all know how nice it would be if a certain person wrote off £2 1/2 million but seriously how many on here would do that.   I can see it now "Due to our unexpected run of poor results and the resultant drop in gate receipts we find that we now have a £250K loss-therefore we ask that the expected 2000 at our next match each donate £125 -collection boxes will be widely available "

Quoted from golfer

If the Trust takes over and falls into difficulty who is going to come to our rescue. £100k that we raised for Promotion wouldn't go very far and I can't see us being able to raise more than that. We have to have someone standing by who is able to help when needed[and who WILL help] We all know how nice it would be if a certain person wrote off £2 1/2 million but seriously how many on here would do that.   I can see it now "Due to our unexpected run of poor results and the resultant drop in gate receipts we find that we now have a £250K loss-therefore we ask that the expected 2000 at our next match each donate £125 -collection boxes will be widely available "

A good start would be to cut the matchday squad by a third and save on wages.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

A good start would be to cut the matchday squad by a third and save on wages.

Absolutely right we have a squad of 31 and have loaned 5 players out to get game time because there are virtually no reserve games. What a complete waste of money.

Another point I'd make is that I think gates would be more forgiving if the trust were in charge and we were struggling for form. As we would literally all be in it together.

Quoted from golfer

If the Trust takes over and falls into difficulty who is going to come to our rescue. £100k that we raised for Promotion wouldn't go very far and I can't see us being able to raise more than that. We have to have someone standing by who is able to help when needed[and who WILL help] We all know how nice it would be if a certain person wrote off £2 1/2 million but seriously how many on here would do that.   I can see it now "Due to our unexpected run of poor results and the resultant drop in gate receipts we find that we now have a £250K loss-therefore we ask that the expected 2000 at our next match each donate £125 -collection boxes will be widely available "

What 'difficulty' that we would 'fall into' are you concerned about? Do you mean like signing lots of players on the strength of TV revenue that hasn't actually been realised? Or finding you have an unpaid tax bill? Or sacking managers left right and centre? And then ditching players that you've recently signed?

I'd say the model where we're owned by one or two rich men hasn't exactly worked out for us.

Quoted from ginnywings

There cannot be an equal vote if there are an odd number of people on the board, which i think is the case. If you take the appointment of Woods for instance, i was told that JF and one other wanted Slade but Mike Parker wanted Woods and two other board members went with that. It's easy to say that JF makes all the decisions, but i don't think that is the case.

I discussed fan ownership as well and he was of the same mind as Moosey. Great idea in principal but not practical in reality.

As Mandy Rice-Davies said, 'well he would say that wouldn't he'.

Not practical in reality? AFC Wimbledon.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Whoever owned the club would still get stick on here when things don’t go as expected.

Anyway the margin between profit and loss is quite small at Town so whoever came in would need to have some considerable resreves to cover any liabilities, big ask that.

Liabilities like what?

There are obstacles to fan ownership but the main one us surely there are not enough of us committed to it.

Trust run clubs can work and they should be ideal. Just like with every rich benefactor club while some succeed like man city, some are nearly wrecked like Portsmouth.  So Trust run clubs succed while some fail. And as an ideal they never fail in the way a rich benefactor does. Ultimately as we always say fans are the constant at a club, so fan ownership of clubs should be the aim.

The problem is the Trust had an open meeting and barely got in to double figures of attending. If we want to aspire to owning our own club we need to work together and support groups like the Trust. All other complaints or obstacles to fan ownership are summountable, but until enough fans are willing to work together I fear we will always be at the whim of the fan who has money, or worse a guy who thinks we are simply are business.

Let's not forget that Grimsby isn't exactly an affluent town. In fact it contains some of the poorest areas in the country. It seems highly unlikely to me that people would have anywhere near enough money to make this viable. It's ok pointing to other examples of clubs that have been successfully fan owned, but I'm willing to bet that these clubs are predominantly southern based with few northern examples.

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

Absolutely right we have a squad of 31 and have loaned 5 players out to get game time because there are virtually no reserve games. What a complete waste of money.

Another point I'd make is that I think gates would be more forgiving if the trust were in charge and we were struggling for form. As we would literally all be in it together.

I made the point elsewhere we should have been on an average home gate of 7k+ last Season but due to the same tried and tested Season ticket sale tactic that had failed spectacularly for the previous 30 odd years we managed about an extra 500 on the back of our best season in 6.Rest assured we repeated said ST routine and the 500 were retained we will repeat again at the end of this season and the 500 will be lost .The fanbase fluctuates between 3-5k in the main and yet in exceptional circumstances that can increase to 15k+ and must be tapped into ala Lincoln.

Steady on. The trust is essentially a supporters group. I am sure there are some intelligent people running it. But managing an entire business (and a complex one at that) is a different kettle of fish.

I think Fenty is doing a crap job but just because someone is a fan and can organise things amongst the fans doesn't mean they could run the club.

Quoted from Caesar

There are obstacles to fan ownership but the main one us surely there are not enough of us committed to it.

Trust run clubs can work and they should be ideal. Just like with every rich benefactor club while some succeed like man city, some are nearly wrecked like Portsmouth.  So Trust run clubs succed while some fail. And as an ideal they never fail in the way a rich benefactor does. Ultimately as we always say fans are the constant at a club, so fan ownership of clubs should be the aim.

The problem is the Trust had an open meeting and barely got in to double figures of attending. If we want to aspire to owning our own club we need to work together and support groups like the Trust. All other complaints or obstacles to fan ownership are summountable, but until enough fans are willing to work together I fear we will always be at the whim of the fan who has money, or worse a guy who thinks we are simply are business.

The Trust need to look at why they got such a low turnout there were reasons. By the same token if the Trust go cap in hand to members with a genuine proposal which would result in sea change they would probably get massive backing if previous fans response is anything to go by. A one man dictatorship isn`t working a fans trust may do better I don`t know but I would be all for giving it a try.

Quoted from Jaws

Steady on. The trust is essentially a supporters group. I am sure there are some intelligent people running it. But managing an entire business (and a complex one at that) is a different kettle of fish.

I think Fenty is doing a crap job but just because someone is a fan and can organise things amongst the fans doesn't mean they could run the club.

It doesn`t mean they couldn`t either?

But would they want to?

A fan's club means having the majority shareholding in it so the club can not become the plaything of any individual.

In the Bundesliga it used to be aprt and parcel of being in said league although Hoffenheim and RB Leipzig have bucked the trend in recent seasons - to great hostitlity from the fans of other clubs who see it as an affront to the credibility of the game that they in effect own.

Barcelona are owned by their 180,000 members. Clubs do not have to be the playthings of oligarchs, magnates and other financial crooks to compete at the very highest level, so why should it be any different at ours?

When fans own the club there's much more a feeling of "we'll stick together through the hard times to get to the good ones" As I said in my original post, we'd still be in the Checkatrade, we'd still be dealing with ignorance and beligerence from the EFL and Bragate, but we would know that the club would be speaking out on our behalf. It's the same in all walks of life, when you're taken for granted - as governments around the world have found out in the last few years - you have the capacity to kick back. When someone speaks up on your behalf you fell that you are no longer just a number, and a vehicle for the club / their owners to make money out of, but are actually part of that decision making process. Communciation is such a powerful weapon, and when handled properly can do so much good, and when done badly - look at the mess our current government's in because it can't communicate at all - it can  do untold damage.

We are where we are. I floated the idea again because I believe in it, and the amount of adverse criticism I see on here nowadays, and on other forms of social media, makes me think that even having the debate would be a useful step to take. I saw JF on the pitch at Wembley - he was making a statement by doing so - and that's perhaps the good side of being in such a position, but the other side as well is you have to communicate with the fans during the lean times as well.

I honestly don't think that an accountable body such as the GTFC Trust would make the same mistake. I also believe that fan ownership is not only desirable, it's the only way to go.

Perhaps now is the time for the Trust to formally approach Mike Parker to launch a takeover bid. Some kind of structure with MP as the overall owner, with a CEO (with PR skills and qualifications!) employed to be the day-to-day 'face of the club' might suit him, along with a strong Trust involvement to bridge the ever-increasing gap between the club and the supporters.

Plus, if the Trust could look into Garth Lane (perhaps with an out-of-town enabling development) as a viable alternative to Peaks Parkway then maybe MP could be tempted to oversee the project as his legacy to the town.

Whether or not Mike will still be interested after what happened with the shares he gifted to the Trust is another matter!

Mike Parker has absolutely NO interest whatsoever and that is not down to the shares he gifted to the Trust in any way

Quoted from Cloudy

Mike Parker has absolutely NO interest whatsoever and that is not down to the shares he gifted to the Trust in any way

What are the reasons he's not interested?

Quoted from AndyMariner

Perhaps now is the time for the Trust to formally approach Mike Parker to launch a takeover bid. Some kind of structure with MP as the overall owner, with a CEO (with PR skills and qualifications!) employed to be the day-to-day 'face of the club' might suit him, along with a strong Trust involvement to bridge the ever-increasing gap between the club and the supporters.

Plus, if the Trust could look into Garth Lane (perhaps with an out-of-town enabling development) as a viable alternative to Peaks Parkway then maybe MP could be tempted to oversee the project as his legacy to the town.

Whether or not Mike will still be interested after what happened with the shares he gifted to the Trust is another matter!

Mike won`t have been happy about the shares but I am sure he is well aware of the facts/circumstances surrounding them being handed over.We can debate it day/night but in my eyes the trust made a mistake albeit I can`t see what alternative they had at the time? I also wonder if the Trust have any scope in asking JF to give all or some of the shares back and if they could be used to raise funds somehow?

Quoted from Cloudy

Mike Parker has absolutely NO interest whatsoever and that is not down to the shares he gifted to the Trust in any way

That's fair enough, it was just a thought if he was approached by the Trust with a structured plan then I didn't know if he could've been tempted to invest. Pure speculation on my part, plus I suppose it doesn't solve the issue of the club being dependent on one man's finances.

Quoted from mariner91

What are the reason he's not interested?

Edited for you

Quoted from AndyMariner

That's fair enough, it was just a thought if he was approached by the Trust with a structured plan then I didn't know if he could've been tempted to invest. Pure speculation on my part, plus I suppose it doesn't solve the issue of the club being dependent on one man's finances.

Structured plan which would be currently......

Hi Mike, its the GTST trust here...you may remember us from your previous dealings when you kindly donated a chunk of your personal shares (and fortune) to us which we subsequently voted to give to your arch nemesis at the time JF...
Well we have been having a discussion here and following the recent publication of our accounts where we made a loss last year we would like to approach you with an idea for Fans ownership of the club...basically we need around 2m to buy out JF's loan plus probably then a few more quid to buy up enough shares to regain overall control of the club...then a few more quid to give us a working budget and from that point on we should be then fairly self sustaining at the level we are at....
So our proposal is that we enter into this on a 50/50 basis, you provide the funds and we provide the great ideas.....Hello,,hello... oh the line seems to have gone dead.

Quoted from jock dock tower

Barcelona are owned by their 180,000 members. Clubs do not have to be the playthings of oligarchs, magnates and other financial crooks to compete at the very highest level, so why should it be any different at ours?

So we are just 179,000 ish members short of being able to compete with Barcelona then ?  

Isn't it against the spirit of this thread to suggest replacing one all-powerful rich individual with another all-powerful rich individual would solve the perceived problems? The OP (despite his incorrect use of the apostrophe) opined that the club should revert to an egalitarian shared ownership where (not rich) fans would have input into the decision making.

Quoted from GrimRob

Isn't it against the spirit of this thread to suggest replacing one all-powerful rich individual with another all-powerful rich individual would solve the perceived problems? The OP (despite his incorrect use of the apostrophe) opined that the club should revert to an egalitarian shared ownership where (not rich) fans would have input into the decision making.

He wouldnt be all powerful though, in the case of MP for example ( or any other person who has the funds going spare )  he would just have to stump up the cash, no strings attached and sign a waiver that we are now in charge of the club....brilliant idea really and one that a full page advert in the Telegraph (Evening not Daily) should resolve pretty quickly.

I also wonder if it were possible to somehow set the club up as a charity ?.. as then we open a global opportunity for exceedingly rich folk and corporations to donate vast sums as tax write off charitable donations to us, as long as we dont make a profit there should be no issues.

Baggsy that idea.

Moosey--will you join me and Fat Cobra in a joint takeover -you are one of the very few to talk any sense-most of the rest are in cloud cuckoo land- I think the March Hare will appear soon.  I normally have my dreams when I am asleep

Quoted from 1mickylyons

It doesn`t mean they couldn`t either?

It's business suicide to just hand someone with no experience the reigns of a business of this size.

Quoted from moosey_club

Structured plan which would be currently......

Hi Mike, its the GTST trust here...you may remember us from your previous dealings when you kindly donated a chunk of your personal shares (and fortune) to us which we subsequently voted to give to your arch nemesis at the time JF...
Well we have been having a discussion here and following the recent publication of our accounts where we made a loss last year we would like to approach you with an idea for Fans ownership of the club...basically we need around 2m to buy out JF's loan plus probably then a few more quid to buy up enough shares to regain overall control of the club...then a few more quid to give us a working budget and from that point on we should be then fairly self sustaining at the level we are at....
So our proposal is that we enter into this on a 50/50 basis, you provide the funds and we provide the great ideas.....Hello,,hello... oh the line seems to have gone dead.

Well, that's one way of looking at it! As 1mickylyons said: "Mike won`t have been happy about the shares but I am sure he is well aware of the facts/circumstances surrounding them being handed over."

My suggestion wasn't about fan ownership (although I do realise that's what this thread is about). Mine was about the possibility of a new owner (who supports Town) overseeing things, with a new more professional approach to the running of the club (for example, no rants from the accounts manager in the Telegraph and no message board outbursts from directors), with someone employed to deal with day-to-day issues / PR, and more involvement and respect for supporters (rather than them being seen as a hindrance). A plan would obviously take time to put together.

As Cloudy has pointed out though, it seems MP isn't interested in getting involved again so it's a non-starter.

Quoted from golfer

Moosey--will you join me and Fat Cobra in a joint takeover -you are one of the very few to talk any sense-most of the rest are in cloud cuckoo land- I think the March Hare will appear soon.  I normally have my dreams when I am asleep

I am flattered... but i wouldnt join any venture that would have me as a partner !  

I suppose the ebst examples are in non league circles, from whence we came.

FC United of Manchester. Came about as a result of disgruntled Manchester United fans being financially shafted by the Glazers. Have had a successful start to life, and although struggling on the playing side this season have moved comfortably up the Pyramid. See below

Supporters[edit]
F.C. United are owned by 5,000 of their members and are the largest supporter-owned football club in the United Kingdom by number of members.[2] Each member can vote on how the club is run, including voting for board members, kit designs and season ticket prices.[8] Most F.C. United supporters still support Manchester United and many were previously season ticket holders at Old Trafford.[96] F.C. United fans are known for the large range of songs that they sing at matches, and the atmosphere created by fans has been praised in the media.[97][98][99][100]

During their first season (2005–06), F.C. United had the second-highest average attendance in English non-League football with an average gate of 3,059 and were the 87th best supported club across all divisions.[101] Attendances fell in the next two seasons and they were the 92nd best supported club in 2006–07 and 100th best supported club by 2007–08.[102][103] Their average league attendance then levelled out at approximately 2,000 per game,[104] before rising to an average of 2,155 in 2014–15, the then-seventh highest attendance in non-League football.[105] After moving to Broadhurst Park in May 2015, the club averaged a gate of 3,394 in 2015–16, a season-on-season increase of over 57% and the fourth highest attendance in non-League football.[106]

Organisation[edit]
F.C. United operate as a community benefit society.[3] Membership is obtained by paying an annual fee of £12 to the club (£3 for children) but each member receives only one share in the club and is entitled to a single vote at meetings, regardless of the amount donated.[107][108] The board consists of up to 11 members who are elected by the members of the club.[17] Day-to-day operations of the club are overseen by a Chief Executive Officer; Andy Walsh, a founding member of F.C. United, was appointed to the position in 2005.[2] He stepped down from the role at the end of June 2016.[109] Damian Chadwick, another founding member of the club, took up the position in November 2016.[110]

The club's manifesto includes the following core principles:[107]

The Board will be democratically elected by its members;
Decisions taken by the membership will be decided on a one-member, one vote basis;
The club will develop strong links with the local community and strive to be accessible to all, discriminating against none;
The club will endeavour to make admission prices as affordable as possible, to as wide a constituency as possible;
The club will encourage young, local participation—playing and supporting—whenever possible;
The Board will strive wherever possible to avoid outright commercialism;
The club will remain a non-profit organisation.
The club accepts sponsorship but does not allow sponsors' logos to be displayed on the team's shirts.[65] The club's main sponsor in its inaugural 2005–06 season was the Bhopal Medical Appeal and in the 2006–07 season it was the Williams BMW Group.[111][112] Between 2011–2016, F.C. United were sponsored by mxData, a Manchester-based mobile app development company.[65][113] In October 2014, F.C. United became the first football club in the United Kingdom to be accredited as a living wage employer by the Living Wage Foundation.[114]

They also own their brand new stadium, built at a cost of £6.3 million. Ring a bell anyone?

Hereford United are another fan owned club, albeit they're a phoenix type set up, and have had great success since coming out of administration since 2014-15. They average just over 4,000 at home at about four levels below our standing in the Pyramid, and I have no doubt whatsoever that they will be a Football League team again in the enxt five seasons.

These two clubs can do it, and both from scratch as well. Now please tell me why GTFC couldn't do similar? If the will's there it can be done. I'd probably put some of my own savings into a fan's owned GTFC. I wouldn't put a penny into the current set up, and I guess there'll be many more like myself who'd be more than happy to do that.

Quoted from Jaws

Steady on. The trust is essentially a supporters group. I am sure there are some intelligent people running it. But managing an entire business (and a complex one at that) is a different kettle of fish.

I think Fenty is doing a crap job but just because someone is a fan and can organise things amongst the fans doesn't mean they could run the club.

Many Town fans run and work in senior positions in large complex organisations, public, private and third sector. And people who have no managerial experience also have a lot to contribute to the running of a business.

I think your attitude is stuck in the 19th century.

And at the end of the day, GTFC is only turning over £3m a year with a few dozen employees. Hardly a mega-corporation.

Quoted from Mariner93er

Let's not forget that Grimsby isn't exactly an affluent town. In fact it contains some of the poorest areas in the country. It seems highly unlikely to me that people would have anywhere near enough money to make this viable. It's ok pointing to other examples of clubs that have been successfully fan owned, but I'm willing to bet that these clubs are predominantly southern based with few northern examples.

It's as much about commitment and organisation as about the wealth of members. Are you really saying town fans lack either? And many people are already acknowledging they're deciding to spend less money on GTFC than they can do because of the way it's run. This on top of the failure to capitalise on the feel good factor of 2016.

And don't forget the fanbase extends countrywide (and worldwide). Grimsby might not be affluent but the fanbase is more affluent than you might realise.

PS How about FC Utd as mentioned by Jock. Not in the least bit southern.

It gets better....first Barcelona as a model now FC United and Hereford.....

FC United...a spin off of Man Utd...alongside Barcelona one of the largest clubs/ brands in the world and ...as with Hereford ...a new club built from zero at which point it is easier to do as you are starting with a completely blank sheet and low level running costs.  

I notice that FC United backers didnt actually try and takeover Man Utd to make it fans owned did they ? No... they set up a protest club which rode a wave of media hype and initial success and is now starting to fade....they have seen membership drop over 3000 in the last two seasons and now stands at around 2300.
They certainly have been succesful to date to achieve what they have, in around 10 yrs managing to build a community stadium with what appears to be little of their own money but they had a blank sheet to start with.

If we went into admin and became a phoenix club or were gifted the club gratis then hey there might be a viable place to start rebuilding from and in 10 yrs we too might be in the Northern Premier with a community stadium but frankly i cant be @rsed with all that......why wait 10 yrs when we could get relegated twice and be in the same league and probably in admin anyway and JF would have fcked off and the club could be ours.
Lets hope the stadium gets built which may inject some new interest and JF may sell on as doing it ourselves just wont happen.

Aren't Exeter a "fans owned" club and they don't seem to be doing too badly at the minute.

Something not picked up by others is Cloudys’ suggestion of a sustainable way forward. With tinkering it looks sensible and pretty much how Southampton do things.

Town have a hardcore of what, 2500 who will buy season tickets and merchandise regardless.  Relatively minor success has proven recently that it's far from the realms of reality for that figure to increase to a minimum of 4000.

So worst case scenario 2500. Best case (on a very glass half empty basis) 4000.  There's absolutely no reason why this football club shouldn't be self-sustaining. The problem and therefore any annual losses are simply through bad business decisions, wasted resources and missed opportunities.

Great example above with the size of the squad. flipping ridiculous. We're paying good wages for people to be fringe players, meanwhile we've got home grown talent that is far cheaper out on loan.  A well run club would set out the number of professionals needed in the summer and any additions must be from the youth set up. Someone signs off these contracts. How much money a year are we wasting on players who play less than 10 games? Are they really value for money?

Don't be fooled into thinking a football club needs a benefactor. It just needs running properly and cloth cut accordingly.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Town have a hardcore of what, 2500 who will buy season tickets and merchandise regardless.  Relatively minor success has proven recently that it's far from the realms of reality for that figure to increase to a minimum of 4000.

So worst case scenario 2500. Best case (on a very glass half empty basis) 4000.  There's absolutely no reason why this football club shouldn't be self-sustaining. The problem and therefore any annual losses are simply through bad business decisions, wasted resources and missed opportunities.

Great example above with the size of the squad. flipping ridiculous. We're paying good wages for people to be fringe players, meanwhile we've got home grown talent that is far cheaper out on loan.  A well run club would set out the number of professionals needed in the summer and any additions must be from the youth set up. Someone signs off these contracts. How much money a year are we wasting on players who play less than 10 games? Are they really value for money?

Don't be fooled into thinking a football club needs a benefactor. It just needs running properly and cloth cut accordingly.

Great post.
"a football club needs a benefactor" we have been brainwashed for years into thinking this.
Fenty Out

There's no reason that a club of our size couldn't be successful if it were owned by the fans. It would need a clear plan putting in place from the start and people would have to be realistic with the club living within it's means. It would be difficult to chop and change manager becuase it is costly (I'd say this is a good thing). The club lives within it's means at the minute, it is just run at the whim of rich men.

I'd like to see the club focus on bringing through its own players and taking players from lower leagues to sell on. Can you imagine what the support would be like if everyone was united behind the club and felt the support made a difference.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Town have a hardcore of what, 2500 who will buy season tickets and merchandise regardless.  Relatively minor success has proven recently that it's far from the realms of reality for that figure to increase to a minimum of 4000.

So worst case scenario 2500. Best case (on a very glass half empty basis) 4000.  There's absolutely no reason why this football club shouldn't be self-sustaining. The problem and therefore any annual losses are simply through bad business decisions, wasted resources and missed opportunities.

Great example above with the size of the squad. flipping ridiculous. We're paying good wages for people to be fringe players, meanwhile we've got home grown talent that is far cheaper out on loan.  A well run club would set out the number of professionals needed in the summer and any additions must be from the youth set up. Someone signs off these contracts. How much money a year are we wasting on players who play less than 10 games? Are they really value for money?

Don't be fooled into thinking a football club needs a benefactor. It just needs running properly and cloth cut accordingly.

I know a lot of people who don't attend because of the way the club is run. Making GTFC more fan inclusive would increase gates and revenue without any shadow of a doubt and would make much greater appeal to the marginal supporters than continuing to sustain the current regime.

Regardless of the ownership question there is so much more that can be done in terms of fan engagement to lift gates and momentum but it appears that the club just choose not to do it.

Too many people in a job for life l’m afraid, no imagination, no flair and no ambition.

Complete fan ownership? Not sure really as I don’t know enough about it. Would definitely like to see more of a joint venture partnership scenario where A share directors (fans group appointments) get on with actually getting stuff done and B share directors take a small retainer of any trading surplus and underight any liabilities just in case.

Quoted from Cloudy

Whoever ultimately runs the club there has to have a long term plan that is not fixed on short terminism

If it was said that in 5 years we could have a modern new stadium, a youth system towards the upper end of the academy system, producing players. A strategy of having 4/5 older experienced leaders in the squad but the others about getting youngsters through, either home produced or picked from the bigger boys when deemed not quite good enough for Prem/ Championship clubs.

The structure must be fully thought through and agreed. The first team manager can change but only if the new man buys into this plan, no deviation.

Above all the plan must be communicated, updated and the fans involved and educated as to the methods and aims of the plan.

It must have the community at its heart and needs skill to be effectively sold to the fan base.

If it means, at worst  we tread water for five years or so whilst the plan has a chance to bed in and produce then would YOU accept that?

I think I might despite maybe not having a huge time left to see if it works!

Echoes my thoughts Cloudy. The club needs to build an identity and ethos it can sell to prospective signings, create saleable assets to ease cashflow when necessary and begs the need to appoint up and coming coaches/managers/or assistant managers from higher up the ladder who are ready for their chance, rather than grizzled old managers on the way down prone to signing journeymen.

Ultimately it would be a mission statement on the playing side that the fans could understand, identify with and buy into with bums on seats. God knows what our club's identity or methodology is nowadays..

As Imp Corner says, it works for Southampton and I think Brentford are doing quite well using a similar model.

It's a worthy model to aspire to if a way could be found to have the chance to implement it..

Quoted from Bigdog

Echoes my thoughts Cloudy. The club needs to build an identity and ethos it can sell to prospective signings, create saleable assets to ease cashflow when necessary and begs the need to appoint up and coming coaches/managers/or assistant managers from higher up the ladder who are ready for their chance, rather than grizzled old managers on the way down prone to signing journeymen.

Ultimately it would be a mission statement on the playing side that the fans could understand, identify with and buy into with bums on seats. God knows what our club's identity or methodology is nowadays..

As Imp Corner says, it works for Southampton and I think Brentford are doing quite well using a similar model.

It's a worthy model to aspire to if a way could be found to have the chance to implement it..

We are on a similar wave length on this one but the overwhelming thing has to be one of communicating to the fans what the plan is. This is the biggest failure of the club imo and is why so many feel alienated.

It doesn't take Einstein to realise the importance of being inclusive to the community but the current board regard the supporters as a hindrance

Quoted from Bigdog

Echoes my thoughts Cloudy. The club needs to build an identity[b][/b] and ethos it can sell to prospective signings, create saleable assets to ease cashflow when necessary and begs the need to appoint up and coming coaches/managers/or assistant managers from higher up the ladder who are ready for their chance, rather than grizzled old managers on the way down prone to signing journeymen.

Ultimately it would be a mission statement on the playing side that the fans could understand, identify with and buy into with bums on seats. God knows what our club's identity or methodology is nowadays..

As Imp Corner says, it works for Southampton and I think Brentford are doing quite well using a similar model.

It's a worthy model to aspire to if a way could be found to have the chance to implement it..

You use the word "identity" Bigdog which is bang on as we currently have no identity on or off the pitch, the current regime has no identity as it appears they sit quietly in the background waiting for things to happen.

I noticed on Twitter that the crew from Soccer AM have visited GTFC a visit which I assume will be on their Saturday morning show, bit embarrassing really as they are an entertainment show and they chose to come to GTFC.

As for changing ownership of GTFC.

Notwithstanding an out of the blue multi-million pound investor, the way I see it is this.

A body needs to be set up (or it could be the Trust) that sets out a clear mission statement that it wants to take over the club.

It also sets out a clear identity of how the club would operate, its playing side ethos and tangible goals such as new stadium, League One football aiming for the Championship, a strong academy and a platform for young talent in the first team for example.

It then offers shares that are locked in as an investment that is totally refundable if the ultimate goal is not achieved. If the goal is achieved then the capital is unlocked to fund buying the club and initial cashflow if needed.

Members would offer their skills for free ie building a slick website, marketing, accounts, legal, PR etc.

Fundraising events used to cover operating expenses so  the fans, businesses share capital is never touched and stays locked in for the buy out or full refund if not successful.

If there was the sort of support that OP received, there's a chance with the greater goal of having a say in running the club, it may attract previously reluctant businesses and larger scale investors to get involved as it gathers momentum..

It needs a great deal of thought and planning and a plenty of people prepared to commit a lot of time and energy.

Are there people out there willing enough to do it? Who knows? Hopefully there are. It must be worth considering as its getting to the point where there doesn't seem to be any option than to roll up our sleeves and do something about it. The status quo carrying on years into the distance doesn't bear thinking about, does it?

Quoted from Bigdog

As for changing ownership of GTFC.

Notwithstanding an out of the blue multi-million pound investor, the way I see it is this.

A body needs to be set up (or it could be the Trust) that sets out a clear mission statement that it wants to take over the club.

It also sets out a clear identity of how the club would operate, its playing side ethos and tangible goals such as new stadium, League One football aiming for the Championship, a strong academy and a platform for young talent in the first team for example.

It then offers shares that are locked in as an investment that is totally refundable if the ultimate goal is not achieved. If the goal is achieved then the capital is unlocked to fund buying the club and initial cashflow if needed.

Members would offer their skills for free ie building a slick website, marketing, etc.

Fundraising events used to cover operating expenses so  the fans, businesses share capital is never touched and stays locked in for the buy out or full refund if not successful.

If there was the sort of support that OP received, there's a chance with the greater goal of having a say in running the club, it may attract previously reluctant businesses and larger scale investors to get involved as it gathers momentum..

It needs a great deal of thought and planning and a plenty of people prepared to commit a lot of time and energy.

Are there people out there willing enough to do it? Who knows? Hopefully there are. It must be worth considering as its getting to the point where there doesn't seem to be any option than to roll up our sleeves and do something about it. The status quo carrying on years into the distance doesn't bear thinking about, does it?

Some interesting stuff there, so what your saying is JF gets his £2 million back by people investing small amounts and then electing a board to act as the exec for the club? The bit I don't get is how can you guarantee a full refund on share purchases?  

Quoted from HertsGTFC

You use the word "identity" Bigdog which is bang on as we currently have no identity on or off the pitch, the current regime has no identity as it appears they sit quietly in the background waiting for things to happen.

I noticed on Twitter that the crew from Soccer AM have visited GTFC a visit which I assume will be on their Saturday morning show, bit embarrassing really as they are an entertainment show and they chose to come to GTFC.

In recent years, the only thing that people from around the country/world could identify GTFC was the way our fans stuck together in non-league and our magnificent away support. Sadly that identity is rapidly disappearing thanks to the current regime.. We need to get it back and build on it somehow..

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Some interesting stuff there, so what your saying is JF gets his £2 million back by people investing small amounts and then electing a board to act as the exec for the club? The bit I don't get is how can you guarantee a full refund on share purchases?  

Yes, Could snowball into bigger things.

Ring fence the cash invested in shares. Only to be used for buying the club. Full refund otherwise..

Quoted from Bigdog

In recent years, the only thing that people from around the country/world could identify GTFC was the way our fans stuck together in non-league and our magnificent away support. Sadly that identity is rapidly disappearing thanks to the current regime.. We need to get it back and build on it somehow..

It took many years in the conference to rebuild the damage done prior to the drop, culminating in Op Promotion. Unity is easy to destroy but takes an age to build.  

I think the damage done by the board with its many gaffs recently, is too deep and the only way forward is a change at the top.  Fan ownership can work, but it needs a lot of people to invest time.

Quoted from TheRealJohnLewis

It took many years in the conference to rebuild the damage done prior to the drop, culminating in Op Promotion. Unity is easy to destroy but takes an age to build.  

I think the damage done by the board with its many gaffs recently, is too deep and the only way forward is a change at the top.  Fan ownership can work, but it needs a lot of people to invest time.

The biggest barrier is taking the plunge.

Initially it would only take half a dozen like-minded determined people to take that first step and set out the parameters of the project..

Some really good ideas being presented here.
I remember Operation Promotion first being mooted in a similar vein on the Fishy, then the trust stated something was in the pipe line. We all know what the outcome of that was.
If enough dedicated individuals came together to at least give the idea some serious thought, make some plans, visit other fan owned clubs and draw from their experiences, who knows what could happen? If someone had proposed that the fans could raise over 100 thousand pounds, many on here would have laughed at the prospect. But it happened, with a lot of dedication and generosity. Not only did we raise the money, but it did the trick, we were promoted!
What harm would come from giving this idea some serious consideration. Who knows, we may one day become a fan owned club?

Quoted from heppy88

Some really good ideas being presented here.
I remember Operation Promotion first being mooted in a similar vein on the Fishy, then the trust stated something was in the pipe line. We all know what the outcome of that was.
If enough dedicated individuals came together to at least give the idea some serious thought, make some plans, visit other fan owned clubs and draw from their experiences, who knows what could happen? If someone had proposed that the fans could raise over 100 thousand pounds, many on here would have laughed at the prospect. But it happened, with a lot of dedication and generosity. Not only did we raise the money, but it did the trick, we were promoted!
What harm would come from giving this idea some serious consideration. Who knows, we may one day become a fan owned club?

Apparently we already are - albeit a fan who doesn't respect other fans.

Quoted from moosey_club

It gets better....first Barcelona as a model now FC United and Hereford.....

And the problem with that is?

If only we had the cash up front to buy him out to at least give fan ownership a go after weeks like this!

Exeter are a fan-owned club. They've also found innovative ways of generating revenue at their current ground without needing the risks of having a new ground.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Many Town fans run and work in senior positions in large complex organisations, public, private and third sector. And people who have no managerial experience also have a lot to contribute to the running of a business.

I think your attitude is stuck in the 19th century.

And at the end of the day, GTFC is only turning over £3m a year with a few dozen employees. Hardly a mega-corporation.

Are any directors of the trust also directors of a company turning over a 7 figure sum? Have any individuals stepped forward? I think you'll find most qualified people are a bit preoccupied to take on another such role on an unpaid basis like John Fenty.

I think you're stuck in the 19th century if you think the topic of fan ownership should be on the table without a figure to spearhead such an effort.

Technically we are fan owned. Fenty didn't buy the club for a laugh, he was a fan and still is (despite decisions that I disagree with)

Quoted from Jaws

Are any directors of the trust also directors of a company turning over a 7 figure sum? Have any individuals stepped forward? I think you'll find most qualified people are a bit preoccupied to take on another such role on an unpaid basis like John Fenty.

I think you're stuck in the 19th century if you think the topic of fan ownership should be on the table without a figure to spearhead such an effort.

Technically we are fan owned. Fenty didn't buy the club for a laugh, he was a fan and still is (despite decisions that I disagree with)

I don't dispute that John Fenty is a fan. But by fan ownership I mean ownership by fans as a collective body, with their representatives running the club. I don't know how that could be considered. The belief that only a few 'businessmen' could do such a thing, and that 'ordinary people' could not is ludicrously anachronistic. Modern business isn't about a few masters making decisions and many labouring workers carrying out mindless tasks. Things are much more fluid and more ambiguous now. As for a 'spearhead figure', again why do you need some form of hero figure? It would be totally the wrong thing for a collaborative, representative organisation.

I don't know about the skills of the individuals on the Trust board so cannot comment. As for people with the right skills being too busy, then the obvious answer is people who have retired. I'm sure there are also other imaginative solutions out there given the broader skillset that exists amongst fans and modern technology.

I've kept out of this thread but am happy belatedly to confirm that I have absolutely none of the skills needed to run a professional football club and although retired (which appears to mean I have loads of time) I have absolutely no interest in acquiring them.

Quoted from barralad

I've kept out of this thread but am happy belatedly to confirm that I have absolutely none of the skills needed to run a professional football club and although retired (which appears to mean I have loads of time) I have absolutely no interest in acquiring them.

Don't put yourself down Barra - I know one of Newport's directors and he's told me that their resurgence is due to having a wide variety of skills to call on rather than relying on the business nous (or otherwise) of individuals. He even went as far as to say that any egos are left at the boardroom door. I asked him if he would care to bring a flag with him when they visit BP!

Sounds like a kickstarter opportunity.

Quoted from barralad

I've kept out of this thread but am happy belatedly to confirm that I have absolutely none of the skills needed to run a professional football club and although retired (which appears to mean I have loads of time) I have absolutely no interest in acquiring them.

Serious question: what would you say they are?

You’d think some PR skills would be useful.

Quoted from LH

You’d think some PR skills would be useful.

Or knowing who to turn to with respect to external communications.

Quoted from barralad

I've kept out of this thread but am happy belatedly to confirm that I have absolutely none of the skills needed to run a professional football club and although retired (which appears to mean I have loads of time) I have absolutely no interest in acquiring them.

With your dodgy music tastes and political beliefs you could really cause havoc at the top table

OTO    Operation Take Over could be the new buzz word, seriously though it would need to be set up and run by people who understand the business side and are experienced in promoting everything for growth.

Glad to see the debate taking off and some very encouraging participation on both sides. It is both sides that need  convincing though as those who already maybe share such a belief do not need any more encouragement.

I've shown the difference in how the likes of Barcelona and FC United of Manchester are both owned by the fans - although with hugely differing levels of finance available to them - to indicate that it can be done at whatever level of the game. Nowhere is more passionate about fan ownership than the Bundesliga where the chipping away of it by RB Leipzig and Hoffenheim is starting to have a genuine impact on terrace culture.

A lot of folk will know that most Saturdays during the football season I watch my adopted team, Auchinleck Talbot, in Scotland. We are run by an elected committee as are the vast majority of clubs at our grade, but we have been hugely successful because of the longevity and foresight shown by said committee for the best part of forty years now. Auchinleck is a village of less than 4,000 inhabitants now, and was basically shut down after the miner's strike when the pits closed, but we are Scotland's most successful non league side by a country mile. The club is at the absolute centre of the community and every fan feels they have a stake in it. Committee, fans and players all socialise with each other, there's none of the them and us attitude.

We run a scheme whereby individuals donate £10 per month to the club over 10 months of the year. This guarantees the club £100 per person. It's not just the fans though, it's committee, management and all the players buy into it, and there are now over 130 folk who contribute, giving the club £13,000 per year for transfers and contract extensions etc. There's no draw or anything for this£10 per month it all goes to the club, and when the player of the year social is held there's a free bar for everyone who takes part. £13,000 might not seem a lot to a club like Grimsby, but to us it's of huge significance as it means we eat at the top table year after year and are always competing for major honours.

Where it could be useful to the likes of Town is seeing how many folk might sign up for it? I douby there'd be more than a handful do it in the current climate, but were it a club at the heart of the community things would be different. If Grimsby got the same kind of percentage sign up as we do (130 out of 3,900 inhabitants of Auchinleck is over 3%) then with the collective population of Grimsby and Cleethorpes of approximately 170,000 (roughly forty times that of Auchinleck's) the same kind of financial commitment from 3%  of the population would be just over £500.000.

Am not saying that this kind of science would be anything like exact but it does highlight what can be done, and it doesn't take a Bill Gates or a Mark Zuckerberg to do it, just a dedicated group of people who are there for the sole purpose of making the club great again. Of course, some business skills would be handy and am sure with some kind of imaginative sponsorship deals they could be bought in on an as need basis.

It's not an unsurmountable problem , and as I've mentioned previously a fan owned club needs to control only 51% of the shares so they can investment into the club. It can be done.

I dont know the answer to this but would the fact that GTFC is a PLC hold this back? If so this may be extremely expensive to unravel

I think GTFC are the only public company with its head office in Gy/Cleeps ( previously Cosalt was the other)

Those who want to should set up a lottery syndicate with the express aim of funding a takeover. You can create a syndicate online.

https://www.national-lottery.co.uk/games/syndicates

A fan takeover would only work if the current debt was dropped and the club was offered for a token fee.

....and that, surely, is where any kind of fan buy out should come from in the first place? Football's an emotional game and asking for such debts to be dropped, to further the cause of the Town would warant a response from the board - hopefully. It would be interesting to see what that would be.

If we are to believe that the people on the board are fans, and have the best interests of the club at heart then perhaps they could make their own impassioned plea as to why they ought to remain in control. Again, it would be very interesting to see such a response. Let's not get too tied up in can we afford it though, it's always the fallback position of those afraid of change for illogiocal reasoning - "can we afford it" or the classic "be careful what you wish for"

One final point to anyone who thinks the present set up is just what the club need, because they are averse to change, why do you think that? Look beyond the horizons as are at the moment and dare to think big. Does anybody think we'll ever get back to holding our own in the Championship under the current set up? If you don't then you must surely want change. Fan ownership has to be the way forward.