Future of Europe after Brexit.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

So you're saying this extra £70 a day is wrong, or not justified?

You think we have real freedom of action under NATO? Ultimately, yes, a federal Europe would mean loss of sovereignty. The reality is we have no real say and are the Americans poodle. I'd rather be part of something where we have a say, that is closer to home. But as it is we're going to be out of the EU so I don't know why people are worried about the EU getting on with it.

I felt the £70 a day was wrong, you are paid a wage by your country as a serviceman any other money should go to projects that benefit those countries were operations are being undertaken.

The UK is a major player and contributor to NATO and is highly regarded by the Americans even though we get dragged into some of their ventures, but that is down to mainly weak or self serving politicians. We didn't get involved with Vietnam so this poddle thing is more recent, even Thatcher had a go at the Yanks when they didn't support us initially over the Falklands.

If the UK Forces was absorbed into a federal Europe we wouldn't have a say, our forces would be deployed by Brussels, the worrying thing for me is the stance they are taking with Russia.  So even an EU army without UK could still cause issues later down the road.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

PS, the fact there are EU countries not part of NATO shows that there is justification for an EU army. For example, what's caused more tension with Russia, the Baltic states join NATO or Finland remaining out of NATO?

I suspect that the countries not spending enough on defence are doing so not to deliberately undermine NATO which I assume they freely joined, than simple economic choice about where they spend their money. Might not be the right choice but ....

PPS on the one hand you're complaining about NATO members not spending enough and in the other breath complain about them spending too much (the extra £70 a day pay). Sounds like you're just a Europhobe who likes to complain.

The money comes from money paid in by NATO members, you maybe right that some of these countries may not be paying enough on defence because of their own economic issues.

It's funny that you get painted as a phobe when you don't like something, in this case something that is an institution that is against democracy and has nailed it colours to the mast as heading for federalism but more like a dictatorship. You do realise that the EU will make rules and regulations and nation states will have to comply without a say. Maybe your an Europhile and will take what ever the EU dictates with no regard for democracy as long as you get your Belgian chocolates and Champagne.

Being deployed by Brussels would be ace. Think how good the rat packs would be if Europe did them rather than UK companies.

Enjoy your frogs legs and snails 😉
OUT MEANS OUT

Quoted from MidnightMariner

Enjoy your frogs legs and snails 😉
OUT MEANS OUT

Thank you for that insightful contribution. I bet you were a hit at the Oxford Union.

Quoted from Marinerz93

The money comes from money paid in by NATO members, you maybe right that some of these countries may not be paying enough on defence because of their own economic issues.

It's funny that you get painted as a phobe when you don't like something, in this case something that is an institution that is against democracy and has nailed it colours to the mast as heading for federalism but more like a dictatorship. You do realise that the EU will make rules and regulations and nation states will have to comply without a say. Maybe your an Europhile and will take what ever the EU dictates with no regard for democracy as long as you get your Belgian chocolates and Champagne.

I called you a Europhobe because despite the fact we won't be in the EU you keep bringing up issues about the EU that won't concern us, like the possibility of an EU army.

I'm pro-EU in principle because I'm a realist about Britain's place in the world. The final nail in our coffin as a world power was hammered in over Suez.

Come all this talk of an EU army is just dangerous fantasy.

If we were still in the EU, we could always have vetoed any EU Army. Does seem odd to get so excited about this, however, if you aren't getting all excited about our continuing membership of Nato.

The Future of Europe PDF is interesting, not particularly for the defence stuff, but for many of the other issues. First of all, the idea of a European Monetary Fund to help countries during economic crisis is a good (and obvious one). Perhaps they've realised that the punishment of Greece was a really, really bad idea - shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, admittedly, but it seems they are going the right way.

Consolidated corporate taxes and information sharing is also very obvious, especially with the megacorporations dodging their obligations across Europe. One or two of the tax haven countries would suffer (Ireland/Luxembourg/Netherlands especially), but screw them - they've been screwing the rest of us over for their own benefit for years.

In fact, nothing really to complain about in that document (from a quick scan through), unless you've got a bee in your bonnet about a potential small contribution to an EU army. Oh, and the freedom of movement thing, of course.

Anyway, it turns out that the freedom of movement thing will probably be OK if you're rich or work for a bank:

https://www.theguardian.com/bu.....workers-after-brexit

I'd imagine the multinationals will also go by this as well and the definition of 'senior' workers will prove to be rather lax.

Quoted from Grim74

Come all this talk of an EU army is just dangerous fantasy.

Why should you care? We'll be out of the EU.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I called you a Europhobe because despite the fact we won't be in the EU you keep bringing up issues about the EU that won't concern us, like the possibility of an EU army.

I'm pro-EU in principle because I'm a realist about Britain's place in the world. The final nail in our coffin as a world power was hammered in over Suez.

23 countries have signed up to integrate their armies into a European Army, with chain of command in Brussles, with control over deployment and mobilization. Plans for this go back as far as 2015 and with this new formation it has been acknowledged that this could undermine NATO, to be part of NATO all members agreed to spend 2% of GDP on defence, since 2006 countries such as Germany have not met this obligation, this stands out because Germany has the forth largest gdp in the world so it can't say it can't afford it. So if it can't be bothered to honour it's 2% gdp spending obligation on NATO how can it find money to fund EU Army. The Czechs and Romanians have given a full brigade size unit to the Germans to use in the German Rapid Response Force so both those units will fall under German high command. This has further bearing with German law, article 35 on the use of Armed Forces. You also have Macron calling for a shared defence budget.

What the EU does with it's newly formed Army will have a direct bearing on us, if they face up to Russia like they have been voicing you bet we will be dragged in. You've got absolute loons in Verhofstadt and Juncker who believe they are more powerful than they are.

So you are a Europhile, and like you I am a realist in where I see the UK's place in the world, I know we aren't a super power but we are a very powerful nation regarded by most of the known world, it's just a shame others don't see it. Maybe it's because we have been brow beaten for so long by nobody's in Brussels, that'll soon change. Europhiles like yourself are a bit like the wife constantly put down and brow beaten by her angry ex, and when she leaves him she realises she was better off without him all along. It will take time, and we will take a couple of knocks but like chumbawumba we will get up again.