State pension

Wtf is going on, I was led to believe that serps and/or state second pensions were being protected?  A couple of years ago my state pension forecast was £204 per week, now it's  £168.  Htf does that work?  

Quoted from Maringer

Anyone with half an ounce of sense is anti-Brexit, but there you go.
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So you think it is sensible to stay part of a union that is protectionist, is run by unelected beauracrats making rules based on lobbying by corporations, undemocratic in voting as highlighted by UK MEP's and unaccountable with the trillions we have paid in. You'll be telling me next that Guy Verhofstadt is right in everything he says and Jean-Claude Juncker is a trusted and able political leader who we should do everything he says.

What are your thoughts on how the EU is treating Poland on the issue of refusing to take refugees / illegal immigrants.

Some good points there. This is probably the first time I've disagreed with Maringer politically. Lexit was my position, primarily for reasons of democracy.

Quoted from Marinerz93

So you think it is sensible to stay part of a union that is protectionist, is run by unelected beauracrats making rules based on lobbying by corporations, undemocratic in voting as highlighted by UK MEP's and unaccountable with the trillions we have paid in. You'll be telling me next that Guy Verhofstadt is right in everything he says and Jean-Claude Juncker is a trusted and able political leader who we should do everything he says.

What are your thoughts on how the EU is treating Poland on the issue of refusing to take refugees / illegal immigrants.

The EU is run by unelected bureacrats (the EU commission) in the same way that the UK is run by unelected bureaucrats (the civil service). I'm not too well up on the exact structure but understand that each member country appoints a commissioner and MEPs vote on which one of these becomes President. If they don't like the make up of the commission, the MEPs can dissolve it entirely upon a vote of no confidence. Doesn't sound entirely unelected to me. It is also my understanding that the various policy initiatives are bashed out by ministers from all the member states before being implemented by the commission so we can't really complain about that, either. Perhaps Farage and his UKIP cronies ought to have spent more time actually attending the European Parliament instead of just hoovering up the money and appearing for the odd grandstanding speech?

The daftest thing is that so many have an imagined vision that there is some sort of vast and profligate bureaucracy in the background wasting money left, right and centre. The actual numbers of EU bureaucrats are around 23,000 which operates a body representing 500 million citizens. Compare and contrast this figure to the UK Civil Service which has well over 400,000 civil servants at the moment, despite the fact that the Tories have been actively slashing this back.

Also, let's not be bloody silly here. The 'trillions' we have paid in? Utter nonsense, even if you are just aiming for hyperbole. The amount we have paid has certainly gone up due to additional expenditure since the crash in 2008, but supposedly, it is to fall in the future. Not sure of the exact total amount but look at the wiggly black line and you'll see it will adds up to not a vast amount when you consider it is spread over 40 years or so:

[img]https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/EU%20contributions%20since%201973%20updated%202016%20prices.JPG[/img]

An expense well worth paying for membership of the world's largest and wealthiest trading bloc who happen to be our nearest geographical neighbours as well. Interestingly enough, I remember reading somewhere that the recession which seems but certain to hit when Brexit finally takes place is likely to cost us more than 40-odd years of EU membership have! Our GDP currently stands around £2 trillion. Knock a few percentage points off that with a recession and you're talking vast costs both to the country and individuals.

As to your other question, I've been on holiday and then too busy to keep up with news over the past couple of weeks, but a quick glance through the news makes me think there is nothing wrong with the commission having a go at those east European countries who are refusing to fulfil their obligations to rehouse refugees. You can't be a member of a club and then pick and choose which agreements you want to follow. By refusing to accept any refugees they are saying 'screw you' to their fellow members Greece and Italy who are the ones picking up the tab at the moment. Hardly ideal but relocating 120,000 into a population of more than 500 million is basically a rounding error.

Anyway, don't mistake me for a big supporter of the EU as it has, perhaps unsurprisingly, become thoroughly neoliberal in bent in recent decades, with the ECB in particular being guilty of disgraceful and economically incompetent treatment of the Greeks which has destroyed their economy.

However, I still think it is better to be inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in when you're dealing with your local trading bloc. The EU needs to be reformed and the best way to do this would be from within, not by jumping first at great cost to ourselves. Need I mention the fact that we're currently governed by a bunch of incompetent and dishonest clownshoes who couldn't negotiate a functional deal if their lives depended on it?

The policy initiatives are not bashed out by ministers from all the member states before being implemented by the commission, they are formed by beauracrats who are lobbied by corporations and MEPS have to vote on them. The first sight of some of these initiatives / regulations are at the voting point  when a number is read out and a vote is called when the interpreters can't keep up or interpret something wrong which has been highlighted many times.

How much has Britain paid into the EU since we joined, I read somewhere it was over 2 trillion but reading other sources other reports state that is our stake in the EU with all the property we have partly paid for and what our percentage as a net contributor is worth. So I can concede the initial figure I posted is inaccurate, Britain has paid in £503billion since the country became a full member of the European Economic Community at the beginning of 1973.

According to Treasury forecasts, Britain is expected to stump up another £96billion over the next five years. That figure will rise should the EU Army be formed as some want it. Also that tent you speak of, will be full of refugees and if you don't take what's forced on you, you'll be fined €250,000 euros per rejected refugee.

The Brussels accounts have not been given the all clear for 19 years running. If this was a company in the UK they would be held to account and prosecuted.

Quoted from Marinerz93

How much has Britain paid into the EU since we joined, I read somewhere it was over 2 trillion but reading other sources other reports state that is our stake in the EU with all the property we have partly paid for and what our percentage as a net contributor is worth. So I can concede the initial figure I posted is inaccurate, Britain has paid in £503billion since the country became a full member of the European Economic Community at the beginning of 1973.

According to Treasury forecasts, Britain is expected to stump up another £96billion over the next five years. That figure will rise should the EU Army be formed as some want it. Also that tent you speak of, will be full of refugees and if you don't take what's forced on you, you'll be fined €250,000 euros per rejected refugee.

The Brussels accounts have not been given the all clear for 19 years running. If this was a company in the UK they would be held to account and prosecuted.

Well, wherever the 'somewhere' you read £2 trillion was, it was complete, utter bullshite of the most laughably dishonest kind. Look at the wiggly black line in the chart I posted and add each year together. Guessing it will average around £5 billion per year at current prices so not much north of £200 billion over a period of more than 40 years. The £500 billion you mention no doubt conveniently ignores both the rebate we receive and the money which comes back into the UK from the EU. Similarly your £96 billion figure won't be the net figure, either. As I've said in the past, EU membership isn't cheap, but a fee worth paying for membership of the world's largest trading bloc and all that entails. Once again, if Brexit brings on a major recession as expected, it will cost us more than 40+ years of EU membership have!

EU Army? More right-wing scaremongering. Lest we forget, nothing gets done in the EU without unanimous approval from the members. Don't want an EU Army (as most don't)? Don't vote for it.

https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

Let's not forget that much of the barmy right-wing media will write any number of nonsense stories to promote the aims of their wealthy owners. The compulsory EU Army stuff is just another of these.

The refugees thing is very simple. If you're part of a union and an agreement was made (with input from everybody), you should follow through and commit to your promises. The Nationalist rhetoric from the east European countries means they are putting their own politics ahead of their agreed obligations so no wonder they stand to be penalised. The numbers we're talking about here are a rounding error in comparison to the EU population.

'Accounts not being given the all clear'? It doesn't mean what you think it does:

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/the-eu-accounts-have-never-been-signed-off/

Firstly, I think you assume rather too much about the accuracy of UK company accounts, especially those from large companies or conglomerates, especially if one of the 'Big Four' accountancy companies are doing the auditing! Secondly, why would a country or a group of countries have 'accounts' anything like those of a company?!?

The accounts are accepted as a fair and accurate representation which is about as close as you're going to get for a body representing so many countries, citizens, companies, organisations and the like. This is yet another non-story promulgated by the anti-EU right-wing press.

Quoted from Maringer

Well, wherever the 'somewhere' you read £2 trillion was, it was complete, utter bullshite of the most laughably dishonest kind.

EU Army? More right-wing scaremongering. Lest we forget, nothing gets done in the EU without unanimous approval from the members. Don't want an EU Army (as most don't)? Don't vote for it.

https://fullfact.org/europe/hunt-eu-army/

Let's not forget that much of the barmy right-wing media will write any number of nonsense stories to promote the aims of their wealthy owners. The compulsory EU Army stuff is just another of these.

The refugees thing is very simple. If you're part of a union and an agreement was made (with input from everybody), you should follow through and commit to your promises. The Nationalist rhetoric from the east European countries means they are putting their own politics ahead of their agreed obligations so no wonder they stand to be penalised. The numbers we're talking about here are a rounding error in comparison to the EU population.

'Accounts not being given the all clear'? It doesn't mean what you think it does:

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/the-eu-accounts-have-never-been-signed-off/

Firstly, I think you assume rather too much about the accuracy of UK company accounts, especially those from large companies or conglomerates, especially if one of the 'Big Four' accountancy companies are doing the auditing! Secondly, why would a country or a group of countries have 'accounts' anything like those of a company?!?

The accounts are accepted as a fair and accurate representation which is about as close as you're going to get for a body representing so many countries, citizens, companies, organisations and the like. This is yet another non-story promulgated by the anti-EU right-wing press.

The 2 trillion is Britain's cut of the EU property and infrastructure it has paid into since 1973.

The EU army has been called for and plans are in motion to develop it. Listen to Guy Vehoftadt from 15 mins in and he is a liberal not right as you declare it has been stirred up.

[youtube]bOAhH7EeJAQ[/youtube]

If you are paying into something you need to know where your money is going otherwise they do what they want and looking at their wages and expenses it seems they are.

The EU sees us as a cash cow and they will milk us dry, with what they have planned.

Quoted from Maringer

The Nationalist rhetoric from the east European countries means they are putting their own politics ahead of their agreed obligations so no wonder they stand to be penalised.

No they are carrying out the first rule of government to protect its citizens, which is why we are not seeing these kind of attacks in Eastern Europe.

The best advice I can give to the younger posters is take out your own retirement plan as early as possible and put in as much as you can afford.

The amount the government will give back to you after paying in all your working life will get smaller and smaller,

The main problem is we are all living longer so your state pension will be paid later and it will be a lot less than it has been.

My wife used to say to me why am I putting so much money in ,

She is now grateful I did.

Putting into a pension is a must now Pete but my main concern is that those of us who do will get penalised and get a lesser state pension than somebody who has not contributed to a private pension.

I know a friend who gets his state pension topped up with pension credits (which entitles him to other things too)  yet my other friend who gets a private pension is penalised, my friend who has a private pension is better off but only by £45.00 a week yet he contributed to it for 33 years