General election

very good debate - maringer makes his usual excellent points, its just a shame that nobody in labour seems to have the credibility or nous to make them

i think labour's main problem is epitomised by corbyn and brexit. it's always seemed to me and indeed is backed up by the history of the labour party that there are two distinct strands in the party who at times make uncomfortable bedfellows; and no more so than present times. Corbyn represents the middle class socialists, well intentioned people who want to improve the lot of those beneath them and sincerely believe in jaw-jaw and not war-war. you could characterise them unkindly as bleeding heart liberals, or simply as nice peopel, living nice lives in nice places, but who do want to do something to improve the lot of others. the other strand is your working class trade unionism. this has always seemed to me a far more strident, confrontational type of socialism, probably because people have had tough lives and know thye've got to stand up for themselves, to show muscle and power as they haven't got the money or connections to do it otherwise. part of this also reflects itself in love of queen and country, perhaps because so many served in the forces?? they are also generally far more socially conservative, i'd be pretty confident that they would be far more supportive of hanging and of sever penalties for the likes of drug dealers etc. and far more intolerant of immigration
this obviously doesn't sit easy with the more cerebral middle class 'corbynistas'.
all this came to a head with brexit when remain supporting labour was largely diametrically opposed by its natural constituency who voted strongly brexit.
the real problem for labour is to how to square that circle, and with corbyn in charge it looks practically impossible.


final point everyone on here has dismissed the lib dems but i think they will surprise a few people. with the tories apparently intent on a come-and-have-a-go-if-you-think-you're-hard-enough brexit and labour their usual wishy-washy self the lib dems are actually in a strong position to represent the 48% who voted remain. that's an awful lot of voters who have nowhere else to go, if brexit is still an important enough issue for them. he's took a distinct position, which is attractive for those of us who are a bit sick and tired of being called traitors/saboteurs/remoaners and who don't see why we should shut up and let may do what she wants (after all if farage and duncan-smith had lost, would they have shut up and said no more on the subject?.... no, didn't think so)

Quoted from Grim74

You couldn't be bothered to read the spending review then, anyway it's just the telegraph and not the Guardian😕 Even in the Big Short film the first warning reports of the imminent sub-prime disaster came in early 2007, you would of thought soon to be adviser to JP Morgan Tony Blair would have picked up theses warning and have his government put safeguards in place. At least he admitted is party should of taken a tougher fiscal position than they did.

In Blairs autobiography -  A Journey, (2010 I think) he says  "The economic crisis should have been (and indeed still can be) the moment when, instead of lazily succumbing to the idea that more state spending dressed up as fiscal stimulus is the sole answer, we took the opportunity to accelerate and sharpen reform".

Just one other thing you mentioned  the PFI debacle earlier would youn not count this then as an overspend? Just a mere amount of billions more off the balance sheet I suppose. I'm sure you don't mind my children and my children's children paying for These labour vanity projects for years to come.

Anyway nice to see what we would be getting under comrade Corbyrn as his policy's start to become clear, yay! a tax hit for everyone, especially those earning over £70000!! God how they hate aspiration.

And I'm sure as the anti Brit that you are, you will be in full agreement with them by putting the EU workers first in this Country by securing their rights,well before any deal takes place for your fellow countrymen..

That is an interesting definition of vanity projects. Governments of both main parties (although of course primarily Tory governments because they were in power for far longer) had neglected infrastructure since the 1950s. I'm no great supporter of PFI but it was a means by which the Government could fund the absolutely massive investment needed in hospitals and other areas. I was unlucky enough to be diagnosed with heart disease in 2002 and went for treatment at the then unmodernised Castle Hill hospital in Cottingham. At the time it was a decent hospital that was limited in what it could achieve by some outdated facilities. I had to go back for further treatment in 2009 to the recently modernised version and the difference was absolutely staggering. State of the art medical equipment and accommodation. When people ask where the money went they should be pointed in the direction of Castle Hill. Those facilities do not come cheaply. Try telling any of the thousands who will have benefitted from those facilities that it constitutes a "vanity project". That sort of modernisation went on across the country. I am due to start work as a temp exam invigilator at a local school. When I went for the interview they showed us round the facilities. They are far, far better than even my own children had in the late 80s early 90s and a world away from those I had in the 60s/70s.

Forza, a good analysis of Labour except more Labour voters voted for Remain than Brexit. I'd also not characterise the middle class socialist Corbynistas as liberal. Their brand of PC is distinctly not liberal. Well-intentioned maybe, but it's not liberal by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe socially liberal in terms of things like sexual orientation and sexual politics. But it seems it's driven more by egalitarianism than liberalism.

A third, more recent, strand in Labour is made up of the middle class careerists - the Blairites. If you're being unkind they're prepared to ditch socialism in their desire for political office. If you're being kind, then they're pragmatists who believe it is better to be in office and do some good than allow the Tories in to do a lot of bad.

Quoted from barralad

That is an interesting definition of vanity projects. Governments of both main parties (although of course primarily Tory governments because they were in power for far longer) had neglected infrastructure since the 1950s. I'm no great supporter of PFI but it was a means by which the Government could fund the absolutely massive investment needed in hospitals and other areas. I was unlucky enough to be diagnosed with heart disease in 2002 and went for treatment at the then unmodernised Castle Hill hospital in Cottingham. At the time it was a decent hospital that was limited in what it could achieve by some outdated facilities. I had to go back for further treatment in 2009 to the recently modernised version and the difference was absolutely staggering. State of the art medical equipment and accommodation. When people ask where the money went they should be pointed in the direction of Castle Hill. Those facilities do not come cheaply. Try telling any of the thousands who will have benefitted from those facilities that it constitutes a "vanity project". That sort of modernisation went on across the country. I am due to start work as a temp exam invigilator at a local school. When I went for the interview they showed us round the facilities. They are far, far better than even my own children had in the late 80s early 90s and a world away from those I had in the 60s/70s.

Good call Barra. PFI may be poor value for money compared to traditionally funded public sector projects*, but schools and hospitals and roads are not exactly vanity projects. Bar the Millennium Dome (or the Vicar's Tent as Private Eye put it) the big vanity projects I see are private sector.

* and who's fault was that? PFI was a brainchild of the Tories, executed under Blair because New Labour allowed themselves to be strait-jacketed by Tory spending and borrowing limits. Blair and Brown believed they had to do this in order to get elected.
There is, in theory at least, an upside to PFI in value for money terms. The theory was that the public sector doesn't bear the financial risk for project delays and for lack of availability of facilities (i.e. poor maintenance) because it only pays when the facility is built and available, unlike traditional methods where it pays from day one of work on the project. How you evaluate this risk and put a number on it is where it all becomes hazier. And the bank always gets paid.

It seems from the polls and media coverage that Theresa May's "back me to secure a good brexit" argument is convincing a lot of people to back the Tory's. Personally I've yet to hear a convincing argument from anyone about how any form of brexit is going to help resolve any of the country's problems.

Genuine question for brexit supporters - what do you see as the benefits? do you accept that all existing EU nationals  gwill be staying, do you accept that there will not be a trade deal anything like as comparable as to what we have currently? do you accept that immigration might actually go up?  do you accept we are still going to have abide by many of the EU's laws and regulations in order to sell products to them? are you concerned by any of the potential risks?

A thread dominated by the usual suspects. Sums up most of the political debate in the country, those that shout loudest have the least to say

UTM

Quoted from Cloudy

A thread dominated by the usual suspects. Sums up most of the political debate in the country, those that shout loudest have the least to say

UTM

Everyone is free to put forward their opinion,  what point are you trying to make?  Plenty of good points from all sides, why not enlighten us with your views rather than spend time with negative posts?
Everyone has a different situation and different things they see as most important to them and should vote based on these. The.more people discussing the better surely?

Quoted from Cloudy

A thread dominated by the usual suspects. Sums up most of the political debate in the country, those that shout loudest have the least to say

UTM

Excellent contribution.

Much like the one I have been moved to make here.

One of the many reasons to vote Tory: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39702691

Quoted from Skrill

One of the many reasons to vote Tory: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39702691

or not to https://www.theguardian.com/so.....e-to-staff-shortages