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General election

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codcheeky
May 17, 2017, 9:28pm
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Quoted from grimsby pete


When a party that has no chance in hell of winning they can promise you the world.


Not the world Pete just a better society, unfortunately people are hoodwinked by the Tory media and they will be back for another 5 years of helping their mates , look on the bright side you will be able to go fox hunting again
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KingstonMariner
May 17, 2017, 10:55pm
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Quoted from grimsby pete


When a party that has no chance in hell of winning they can promise you the world.


I think they mean it. They will do it if elected. And it's hardly promising the world is it? They're only offering up a slightly fairer society. It's not red in tooth and claw communism is it? A watered down version of Nordic social democracy.

As others have said, the majority of people have been hoodwinked for decades into voting against their interests. The financial crash showed us that what was needed was more not less socialism. The whole system was collapsing (you would not have been able to take cash out of the hole in the wall and banks wouldn't have had the reserves to honour your cheques/debit card payments) until Gordon Brown stepped in and bailed out the banks - and that could have saved global capitalism from itself if Britain had gone down the dominoes would have been falling all over the place. 9 years on, RBS is still not able to stand on its own two feet and we've only just sold off Lloyds.

Personally I think Labour will inspire a lot of first time voters. People who have not bothered before. There will be some surprises.


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For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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HackneyHaddock
May 17, 2017, 11:41pm
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I shall be voting Tory, but really, no party is talking about the kind of tough decisions we need to be taking in the long term interests of the country.

NHS, social care, housing and pensions, all require unpopular decisions to be made, either in terms of increased taxation, compulsory social insurance, building on greenbelt and higher compulsory pension contributions are not what parties want their voters to hear, yet all of these things are probably necessary.  

In many ways, General Elections are about the worst forums for debating complex policy questions, as everything is filtered through the party spin machines and anything really radical (Social care insurance, private provision for the NHS, overhauling the planning system) is either shouted down as a reflex, or is just kicked into the long grass.
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KingstonMariner
May 17, 2017, 11:51pm
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Quoted from HackneyHaddock
I shall be voting Tory, but really, no party is talking about the kind of tough decisions we need to be taking in the long term interests of the country.

NHS, social care, housing and pensions, all require unpopular decisions to be made, either in terms of increased taxation, compulsory social insurance, building on greenbelt and higher compulsory pension contributions are not what parties want their voters to hear, yet all of these things are probably necessary.  

In many ways, General Elections are about the worst forums for debating complex policy questions, as everything is filtered through the party spin machines and anything really radical (Social care insurance, private provision for the NHS, overhauling the planning system) is either shouted down as a reflex, or is just kicked into the long grass.


I don't think that's the case Hackney. Labour are promising to raise taxes. Some of those difficult decisions are not necessary. What's the evidence to suggest that private provision, e.g., in the NHS is the answer? Lib Dems have been in favour of higher taxes for a long time.

The one party that has consistently shirked higher taxes are the Tories. We just end up paying in other ways.

I'd say that pension and social care provision are such big long-term issues that we need cross-party support for strategies to deal with them. Election cycles I agree are not conducive to that.


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HackneyHaddock
May 18, 2017, 12:05am
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Quoted from KingstonMariner


I don't think that's the case Hackney. Labour are promising to raise taxes. Some of those difficult decisions are not necessary. What's the evidence to suggest that private provision, e.g., in the NHS is the answer? Lib Dems have been in favour of higher taxes for a long time.

The one party that has consistently shirked higher taxes are the Tories. We just end up paying in other ways.

I'd say that pension and social care provision are such big long-term issues that we need cross-party support for strategies to deal with them. Election cycles I agree are not conducive to that.


It's not just the higher taxes though.  Even Labour are only talking about higher taxes for higher earners because they're scared of making the case for Nordic-style social provision.  The whole point of those systems is that you have a social contract that means everyone pays more.  Also, there just aren't enough film stars and Premier League footballers to make up the cash.

On privatisation, I do think we need to look at European-style models of healthcare provision.  Anything involving private involvement is a kiss of death for whoever is proposing it, yet there are some excellent healthcare systems in Switzerland, France and Germany we can learn from.  To give Tony Blair credit, one example of how the private sector was used very effectively was in using it to clear through cataract operations.  Making better use of personalised health apps, technology, data and using that to encourage better health and wellbeing may be things better exploited by the private sector, but raise ethical questions.  People will be living to 100 but will remain alive with ever more complex ailments, many brought on by lifestyle.  I can't see any evidence anyone in any party is facing up to this reality.

What a grim note on which to turn in for the night!  I'm sure we'll pick the debate up another time!
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KingstonMariner
May 18, 2017, 12:08am
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Ha ha! Yeah. Grim but it's more of a pressing concern for some of us than others though!


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grimsby pete
May 18, 2017, 8:21am

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Quoted from codcheeky


Not the world Pete just a better society, unfortunately people are hoodwinked by the Tory media and they will be back for another 5 years of helping their mates , look on the bright side you will be able to go fox hunting again


I did not mean just the labour party the Tories promise you a lot more when in opposition,

AND

I have never been on a horse in my life,

Had a ride on a elephant once though.

I am not a conservative and have never voted for them ever ,

BUT

With what is at stake with brexit and very poor alternatives this will be a first for me.


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codcheeky
May 18, 2017, 5:06pm
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Quoted from grimsby pete


I did not mean just the labour party the Tories promise you a lot more when in opposition,

AND

I have never been on a horse in my life,

Had a ride on a elephant once though.

I am not a conservative and have never voted for them ever ,

BUT

With what is at stake with brexit and very poor alternatives this will be a first for me.


And what you voting for in that Pete even May won't set out what she thinks is a good deal, she's feeling pretty confident to upset the pensioners although the BBC will probably spin it as a good deal for them
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Town Monkey
May 18, 2017, 5:16pm
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I think it'll be a lot closer than the polls make out.  Corbyn has got a lot of younger voters fired up.  My daughter, who's 18, and a lot of her friends are really pro Labour and very engaged with politics.  Needless to say, I don't share her idealism.  

That said, I think most of the parties have a few good policies.  Gradually nationalising the railways is probably the way forward given how awful the service is at present and the only other way to change it would be to have multiple operators on the same route which would be chaos.  The paying for social care with equity release has issues but also seems like it could go some way to solve the crisis in funding. I also think means testing the winter fuel allowance (presumably by adjusting wealthier pensioners' tax codes like they did with child benefit) is a winner for me as long as the costs don't outweigh the savings.  I'm also happy to scrap free school lunches for younger kids (whilst retaining it for the poorest) because at the end of the day, why is the government paying to feed my kids, I can manage that.  Buy books and pay teachers please.  Not sure about the breakfast thing though.

At the end of the day, all of this will be over shadowed by Brexit which in my view will stuff us, in the short term at least.  It's going to be an interesting few years, I fear.  
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LH
May 18, 2017, 5:31pm

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It'll be interesting to see how the media manage to spin the Tory manifesto into a positive for poor pensioners who make up a big chunk of their support!
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