The way forward.

One of the main complaints with regard to Bignot's teams was the lack of any structure with regard to formation.
I have been watching Town , and football in general , for over 60 years. I must admit I do not spend much time deciding whether I am watching 4-4-2    .  3-5-2.  . 2-3 -5. Or whatever. I leave formation to somebody ( the Manager ?) ,who hopefully is more knowledgeable than me, and selects a system using the strengths of the players he has available.
Football is,to me,a simple game. You pass, to one of your team mates,and move,pass and move until a goalscoring opportunity arises.
To me the lack of simple passing man to man has been our main problem, I am sure we have a pool of players well able to carry this out!
Let's hope our new management team can bring this to fruition.
     U.T.M

Quoted from Chips44

One of the main complaints with regard to Bignot's teams was the lack of any structure with regard to formation.
I have been watching Town , and football in general , for over 60 years. I must admit I do not spend much time deciding whether I am watching 4-4-2    .  3-5-2.  . 2-3 -5. Or whatever. I leave formation to somebody ( the Manager ?) ,who hopefully is more knowledgeable than me, and selects a system using the strengths of the players he has available.
Football is,to me,a simple game. You pass, to one of your team mates,and move,pass and move until a goalscoring opportunity arises.
To me the lack of simple passing man to man has been our main problem, I am sure we have a pool of players well able to carry this out!
Let's hope our new management team can bring this to fruition.
     U.T.M

Or you can simply boot it over the top or into the channel for a billy whizz type, which is the way we went under Slade in our second season. In his first, we tried the pass and move stuff without too much success. Will be interesting to see which one we get now, or maybe a mixture of the two. I'm sure he will have learned a lot more in the last 11 years since he was here.

Simply boot it over the top?

Fair enough you didn't appreciate the more direct style of play but to suggest it was just a case of lumping it forward is way off the mark.  It was tailored to suit what we had and what we were up against.  None of the balls forward were just hoofs.  There's a great post (apologies if someone's already dug it out) from years ago where Slade explained to someone his methods but basically the tactic was to drive the ball forward at a low trajectory, at pace and at an angle.  That way if the defence missed it Reddy could chase it down into the corner, instant possession in a dangerous area.  If Gary Jones got on the end it he was good enough in the air to bring it down or flick it onto Reddy running in behind, again possession in a dangerous area.  If the opposition defence did manage to get anything on it the trajectory of the ball meant they would do very well to do anything other than to put it back into a dangerous area for us to win, the midfield (which was packed with energetic runners) were told to press forward at this point and pressure the opposition into mistakes.

The post itself goes into great detail and explains far better than I can, but there was most definitely a method in Slade's approach.  It wasn't just hoof, hoof, hoof.  I'm not wanting to dig up old ground but it was far more methodical than the long balls up to LJL of two years ago, at least LJL was physical enough to do something with it.  Compared to the hoofs up to Dyson and Jones of recent weeks, Slade's approach looked like Total Football.

damn! i'm sure someone reposted the link the other day ,but i can't remember on which thread

Quoted from diehardmariner

Simply boot it over the top?

Fair enough you didn't appreciate the more direct style of play but to suggest it was just a case of lumping it forward is way off the mark.  It was tailored to suit what we had and what we were up against.  None of the balls forward were just hoofs.  There's a great post (apologies if someone's already dug it out) from years ago where Slade explained to someone his methods but basically the tactic was to drive the ball forward at a low trajectory, at pace and at an angle.  That way if the defence missed it Reddy could chase it down into the corner, instant possession in a dangerous area.  If Gary Jones got on the end it he was good enough in the air to bring it down or flick it onto Reddy running in behind, again possession in a dangerous area.  If the opposition defence did manage to get anything on it the trajectory of the ball meant they would do very well to do anything other than to put it back into a dangerous area for us to win, the midfield (which was packed with energetic runners) were told to press forward at this point and pressure the opposition into mistakes.

The post itself goes into great detail and explains far better than I can, but there was most definitely a method in Slade's approach.  It wasn't just hoof, hoof, hoof.  I'm not wanting to dig up old ground but it was far more methodical than the long balls up to LJL of two years ago, at least LJL was physical enough to do something with it.  Compared to the hoofs up to Dyson and Jones of recent weeks, Slade's approach looked like Total Football.

Yes, you can dress it up all you like to make it sound like you know more than me about football, but at the end of the day, that is what it is. A structured boot over the top maybe, but a boot over the top all the same. Like MB said, there three ways to play; through the middle, over the top, or down the wings. The rest is just window dressing.

It'll be on one of the 9,000 Slade threads from yesterday no doubt...

Quoted from diehardmariner

Simply boot it over the top?

Fair enough you didn't appreciate the more direct style of play but to suggest it was just a case of lumping it forward is way off the mark.  It was tailored to suit what we had and what we were up against.  None of the balls forward were just hoofs.  There's a great post (apologies if someone's already dug it out) from years ago where Slade explained to someone his methods but basically the tactic was to drive the ball forward at a low trajectory, at pace and at an angle.  That way if the defence missed it Reddy could chase it down into the corner, instant possession in a dangerous area.  If Gary Jones got on the end it he was good enough in the air to bring it down or flick it onto Reddy running in behind, again possession in a dangerous area.  If the opposition defence did manage to get anything on it the trajectory of the ball meant they would do very well to do anything other than to put it back into a dangerous area for us to win, the midfield (which was packed with energetic runners) were told to press forward at this point and pressure the opposition into mistakes.

The post itself goes into great detail and explains far better than I can, but there was most definitely a method in Slade's approach.  It wasn't just hoof, hoof, hoof.  I'm not wanting to dig up old ground but it was far more methodical than the long balls up to LJL of two years ago, at least LJL was physical enough to do something with it.  Compared to the hoofs up to Dyson and Jones of recent weeks, Slade's approach looked like Total Football.

For every hoof over the top that results in a goal, there are 7-8 balls that go out for a throw or goal kick resulting in the opposition gaining possession. That is the frustrating and boring thing about it.

17 games in that season where we scored 2 or more goals, and 18 clean sheets! God I hope we don't go back to that rubbish again!!!

It was that boring that we had he highest average attendance in the last 13 seasons!

Quoted from ginnywings

Yes, you can dress it up all you like to make it sound like you know more than me about football, but at the end of the day, that is what it is. A structured boot over the top maybe, but a boot over the top all the same. Like MB said, there three ways to play; through the middle, over the top, or down the wings. The rest is just window dressing.

Did he really say that? No wonder he got the sack! He should have watched some Clough and Buckley videos.

Here you are, couldn't find original so sorry to original poster.


Quoted Text
I saw the thread earlier regarding our ex-manager, marmite-man Russell Slade, and it took me back to a conversation I had with the guy during his time at the club. I wanted to give this its own thread because I feel that it outlines the very problem we face with today's Town side and in particular, Mike Newell.

Let me just begin by saying that I was deeply hurt by the way Slade left the club, particularly the Cardiff debacle, however throughout his time with us I found him to be the most approachable man I've ever met in football. I recall this one night, at some point towards the business end of the 2005/06 season - it was one of those fans' quiz nights at the Inn on the Park that were popular at the time. Afterwards, I approached Slade to say hello, and we got talking.

It began with the usual football smalltalk, and I offered to buy him a pint which he promptly refused, and bought me mine instead. Over the next 45 minutes or so that followed, I was given one of the most in-depth and technical explanations of footballing strategy that I'd ever heard; so much so that I can remember it almost word-for-word to this day. Allow me to paraphrase the choice bits from the conversation, because it demonstrated to me that Russell Slade was for all his faults, a very intelligent and highly committed football manager:

THE CONVERSATION

When he first joined the club, Slade had very much wanted to play attractive, free-flowing football (he had done so at Scarborough). However, some way through his first season became aware that this was not going to be possible here for one, fundamental reason. Essentially, to play attractive, passing football you need creative-minded, technically competent players. Whilst players which met such criteria are available at this level, they are only available for a reason - typically because of poor attitude or work ethic. This makes them an unmanageable liability and unaffordable luxuries. Whilst he didn't name names, I suspect he was talking about the likes of Thomas Pinault and Ashley Sestanovich who were both gifted technically, but also highly inconsistent and unpredictable.

Ultimately, Slade realised that success could not be brought to Grimsby with 'sexy football', and set-out to find another way.

At the end of his first season, he said, he spent time looking through the statistics of promoted teams for the previous few seasons. There was a common thread, in particular to the way in which successful teams tended to score there goals. Set-pieces, defensive errors and goals from counter attacks all featured heavily for successful sides, but were rare for struggling teams as a percentage of their overall goals scored. In fact, struggling teams tended to score from within the 18-yard box from 'general' open play, something which is difficult to specifically engineer.

To take this one step further, Slade mentioned he had watched literally thousands of goals from around a decade of successful League Two sides in an attempt to identify why and how promoted teams scored in the fashion they did. From this, he formed his masterplan.

He suggested that ensuring a high conversion rate from set-pieces was a fairly simple, two-part process. Firstly, you need players who can deliver a quality ball - Curtis Woodhouse, Ciaran Toner and contravertially Tom Newey were all commended. Add to that several above-average height players and you increase the chances of scoring free-kicks and corners significantly. Justin Whittle, Rob Jones, and Gary Jones were all obvious stand-outs, however Slade reckoned that Gary Cohen's athletic leap made him effectively about 6ft 3", and was a major reason for him winning a contract with the club in the first place.

This all seemed fairly straightforward stuff, but it was the next bit that really grabbed my attention.

Slade moved on to explain that the aimless hoofs from the back for which he was so heavily criticised for were in fact not aimless hoofs at all, but a fundamental part of our overall strategy. Balls would often be hit, often 10 - 15 yards away from the nearest Town player and straight into the channel the opposition full-back. However, they were played at pace, at a very specific, low trajectory which made it difficult for the opposition defender to predict and properly clear.

As part of this overall plan, Michael Reddy would chase the ball and close down the full-back receiving the ball. Meanwhile, Town's wingers would cut inside and move forward at pace to remove the option of the full-back taking his only straightforward option; heading it to his nearby centre-half. This left the full-back with only two real options; to try and control the ball (difficult because of the pace and low trajectory of the ball) or to head it forward (resulting in us regaining possession high up the pitch or the opposition midfielder having to turn under pressure from the likes of Paul Bolland).

Not only does this tactic work by providing opportunities through defensive mistakes, it also tires the opposition defence because they are constantly running with little respite (Slade mentioned that League Two centre-backs are not usually the fittest of players). Additionally, it is demoralising as the opposition enjoy little proper possession and are pinned back into their own half for long periods.

In the event that the opposition gained a settled period of possession, the following would happen. Both the midfield and defensive line would push back and sit deep, only pressing the opposing midfield when they approached Town's third of the pitch. Ultimately this meant this resulted in little opportunity for the opposition to play through the defence with a string of passes, for the final third of the pitch becomes too congested to do so. This left Town's frustrated opponents with one option - to go long into the box, playing right into the hands of Rob Jones and Justin Whittle. If you watch the Tottenham game, you'll see this happen again and again and again - quality stuff!

Slade continued. Not only is this a sound defensive route, it also provided us with one of our major outlets for goals that season. Because Town were defending so deeply, it encouraged the opposition defence to play a high-line and sit somewhere around the halfway line. Cue a quick, long ball over the top or through the middle to the lightening quick Michael Reddy, and you're through on goal. Simple as that. Again, watch some footage of our goals that season, particularly Reddy's and you'll begin to see how this was no accident.

As a final point, Slade commented that this approach required extreme levels of fitness, particularly for the midfield who would need to sprint constantly for minutes at a time often without actually receiving the ball. But, he added, fitness can be instilled in young athletes much more easily than specific technical skills. Additionally, by employing players to do very specific roles, typically their strengths, you gain a level of consistency as a team which is, and I quote "the difference between being promoted at the end of the season, or not". Famous last words, Russ, famous last words...

To summarise though, what became clear to me was that Russell Slade had realised what wasn't working, made a plan to address the issues then executed it with thought and precision.

That sounds like a Big Chris post I reckon.

Quoted from ginnywings

Or you can simply boot it over the top or into the channel for a billy whizz type, which is the way we went under Slade in our second season. In his first, we tried the pass and move stuff without too much success. Will be interesting to see which one we get now, or maybe a mixture of the two. I'm sure he will have learned a lot more in the last 11 years since he was here.

This tells me that he was cabpable enough to chnage a plan that wasnt working

A few simple ideas -

Play two real wingers to give width to attacks and draw out defenders from central positions, and then look for midfielders to add to central attacking options.

Play higher up the field and don't let opponents bully you in the last 15 minutes of games, until you're stuck on the edge of your own penalty area.

Have fit players who will last 90 minutes if not injured.

Practice passing to players who have the same colour shirt on, and if possible put it a bit in front of them to run onto at some sort of pace, not receive it at a standing start.

Don't be scared to shoot - it's not all about one star striker any more !

Quoted from ginnywings

Yes, you can dress it up all you like to make it sound like you know more than me about football, but at the end of the day, that is what it is. A structured boot over the top maybe, but a boot over the top all the same. Like MB said, there three ways to play; through the middle, over the top, or down the wings. The rest is just window dressing.

'Kin hell, bit insecure?

I thought it was a football debate.  You thought it was excrement and hopeful, I thought it was decent and tailored. That's it.

I've better things do to than wave willies and compare.  

Yes Mikey, good find.

Slade was one of the Howard Wilkinson school of managers. Howard used this strategy at Boston, Notts County, Sheffield Wed and Leeds, won promotion and the last ever First Division in 1992/3 I think. To an extent they were influenced by Graham Taylor and his research into the long ball game that we discussed on here when he died the other month. The principle is the percentage game, the law of averages. Over a season more chances will be created playing that way. Slade had noted that both Watford and Wimbledon had gone through the lower leagues with that method and Doncaster had just got promotion playing with a side built like brick sh!thouses.

The sort of player you need is a willing centre forward like Lump and some greased lightning like Reddy. In effect it is Ross Jenkins and Luther Blissett at Watford ten seasons earlier. In fact to some extent Ramsey used this with Hurst and Hunt in 1966. One of Charlton's goals against Portugal was made by Hurst running a ball down the channel.

We saw the worst version of this from Lyons but his variation was for every ball to go high towards the corners. He left the BP grass long and wet in that area to hold up the ball. Hurst's was to use LJL and when he left to use one long diagonal ball for Monkhouse to head on.

I think Slade proved more sophisticated and he is a problem solver. It will be interesting to see how he approaches the new season and if he has any signings in mind.

Quoted from diehardmariner

'Kin hell, bit insecure?

I thought it was a football debate.  You thought it was excrement and hopeful, I thought it was decent and tailored. That's it.

I've better things do to than wave willies and compare.  

Too insecure to wave my willy at you.

I didn't think it was excrement, just boring and not as sophisticated as Slade makes it sound. He didn't re-invent the wheel.

Quoted from ginnywings

Too insecure to wave my willy at you.

I didn't think it was excrement, just boring and not as sophisticated as Slade makes it sound. He didn't re-invent the wheel.

No he didn't ginny but to be fair it is very different to hoofball. The Slade/Wilkinson/Taylor method is to hit the ball hard and quite low so there is no time with the ball in the air for defenders to track it and get under it, elbow the striker out of the way, and send it straight back. It is a directed pass like a cross is a directed pass when a winger puts the ball into an area not necessarily picking out one player. It's not rocket science but it's more sophisticated than whacking the ball up in the air for defenders to win it every time.

Much as I would prefer to see the Buckley game I have a feeling Slade may feel a quicker attacking game suits the league we are in but we'll see. It will probably depend on what the players can do. As long as we get results and keep moving up I will be pretty happy.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

No he didn't ginny but to be fair it is very different to hoofball. The Slade/Wilkinson/Taylor method is to hit the ball hard and quite low so there is no time with the ball in the air for defenders to track it and get under it, elbow the striker out of the way, and send it straight back. It is a directed pass like a cross is a directed pass when a winger puts the ball into an area not necessarily picking out one player. It's not rocket science but it's more sophisticated than whacking the ball up in the air for defenders to win it every time.

Much as I would prefer to see the Buckley game I have a feeling Slade may feel a quicker attacking game suits the league we are in but we'll see. It will probably depend on what the players can do. As long as we get results and keep moving up I will be pretty happy.

I do get the concept and am aware it was more 'direct' than it was 'route one'. I'm just a lover of pass and move football and if Slade says the players are not good enough at our level to play that way, then he is not as good a manager as he purports to be. Flip chart managers like Slade complicate a simple game in my view.

Quoted from ginnywings

I do get the concept and am aware it was more 'direct' than it was 'route one'. I'm just a lover of pass and move football and if Slade says the players are not good enough at our level to play that way, then he is not as good a manager as he purports to be. Flip chart managers like Slade complicate a simple game in my view.

I usually agree with most things you say ginny, but I think you're dreaming of a golden era on this one. You see an awful lot more of gtfc than I do, but how many teams have you seen this season particularly, but over the last ten in general who have played that type of football? I would love it if we could do it, but the only times I've seen it from gtfc has been when we've had Buckley and/ or in the championship. The only other time was the early days under slade. It seems to me that you get out of the conference and league 2 by being hard working,fit, efficient with good team play with a smattering of talent if possible.

Quoted from forza ivano

I usually agree with most things you say ginny, but I think you're dreaming of a golden era on this one. You see an awful lot more of gtfc than I do, but how many teams have you seen this season particularly, but over the last ten in general who have played that type of football? I would love it if we could do it, but the only times I've seen it from gtfc has been when we've had Buckley and/ or in the championship. The only other time was the early days under slade. It seems to me that you get out of the conference and league 2 by being hard working,fit, efficient with good team play with a smattering of talent if possible.

Yeah, but we can dream. Buckley managed it and even Mills in the conference played a pass and move game, no doubt influenced by his time at Forest. I know it's not likely to happen, especially now that the game has changed a lot since the time of Buckley but it's something i would like to see at some point. I think it was Oxford in the F.A. Cup recently that gave us a football lesson at BP and they aint exactly a massive club.

Can't believe why we used to play 11 years ago is so important. I enjoyed that season as much as any until Cardiff. But what counts is the future. Slade has managed teams as this level and lower and knows how to set a team up. He I am sure can play more than one way but whatever gets the most points is the best method.

Quoted from ginnywings

Yeah, but we can dream. Buckley managed it and even Mills in the conference played a pass and move game, no doubt influenced by his time at Forest. I know it's not likely to happen, especially now that the game has changed a lot since the time of Buckley but it's something i would like to see at some point. I think it was Oxford in the F.A. Cup recently that gave us a football lesson at BP and they aint exactly a massive club.

I'm sure you would agree mills has been hit and miss, whilst you've picked Oxford out of probably 75 opponents in the last ten years. I'm not been pernickity but you can see it's very low percentage stuff? Teasdale at Exeter usually plays good footie, but they are still stuck in league 2, whilst I can never remember
Torquay being kick n rush but they could be heading towards conference south .
Three final points, both wilkinson and slade have been operating at a higher level than gtfc for many years now. This is a bit of a come down for them both so it's actually quite a positive that we've got them. Secondly they have a wealth of experience between  them which should only benefit us. Thirdly having operated at this higher level they may well be able to attract better quality players than mb or ph could've done and may well be able to unearth one or two overlooked gems in the championship academy rejects

Quoted from forza ivano

I'm sure you would agree mills has been hit and miss, whilst you've picked Oxford out of probably 75 opponents in the last ten years. I'm not been pernickity but you can see it's very low percentage stuff? Teasdale at Exeter usually plays good footie, but they are still stuck in league 2, whilst I can never remember
Torquay being kick n rush but they could be heading towards conference south .
Three final points, both wilkinson and slade have been operating at a higher level than gtfc for many years now. This is a bit of a come down for them both so it's actually quite a positive that we've got them. Secondly they have a wealth of experience between  them which should only benefit us. Thirdly having operated at this higher level they may well be able to attract better quality players than mb or ph could've done and may well be able to unearth one or two overlooked gems in the championship academy rejects

I'm not daft enough to think that we are going to play like Barcelona and it's more of a wish on my part than anything i expect to be a reality. I'm not happy about the way the game has gone, where success and three points are the end to justify the means. I think it is a big failing in British football and one of the reasons we lag behind other countries. It's all become about the result at the expense of how that result is achieved and that means massive fit blokes, playing to a set game plan with no room for individuality or flair. Managers are under immense pressure and the whole structure of our game seems to have lost the beautiful part from the beautiful game. Managers like Slade embody that flip chart, statistical approach to the game that has become the accepted way for most clubs. What i'm trying to say is that it's not just about results for me but i accept the majority of fans are happy to see a win most weeks, by any method, as Rob frequently points out. At the end of the day, my heart belongs to a lower end league club and i understand the limitations that go with that. As i said, i can dream and i blame Buckley for spoiling us with proper footy. I'm ready to accept whatever Slade and Wilko bring our way, at least for now.

Quoted from ginnywings

I'm not daft enough to think that we are going to play like Barcelona and it's more of a wish on my part than anything i expect to be a reality. I'm not happy about the way the game has gone, where success and three points are the end to justify the means. I think it is a big failing in British football and one of the reasons we lag behind other countries. It's all become about the result at the expense of how that result is achieved and that means massive fit blokes, playing to a set game plan with no room for individuality or flair. Managers are under immense pressure and the whole structure of our game seems to have lost the beautiful part from the beautiful game. Managers like Slade embody that flip chart, statistical approach to the game that has become the accepted way for most clubs. What i'm trying to say is that it's not just about results for me but i accept the majority of fans are happy to see a win most weeks, by any method, as Rob frequently points out. At the end of the day, my heart belongs to a lower end league club and i understand the limitations that go with that. As i said, i can dream and i blame Buckley for spoiling us with proper footy. I'm ready to accept whatever Slade and Wilko bring our way, at least for now.

I get you completely ginny and I harbour the same dreams.we were immensely lucky to have been blessed with ab's presence over so many years. And much maligned as laws and slade are, their teams played some wonderful stuff at times. I watch Norwich,Villarreal at heir best, Montpellier and Lille in their day plus Monaco and Lyon now and just wish we could do the equivalent at a lower level. I cling to the hope that wilkinson was a classy player who was good enough for Norwich and slade whose teams at gy, orient and Yeovil have played some lovely stuff will have the ability to provide some moments of magic. I think with Osborne,Andrew, Asante and Jones there is the possibility of good times ahead

Quoted from forza ivano

I get you completely ginny and I harbour the same dreams.we were immensely lucky to have been blessed with ab's presence over so many years. And much maligned as laws and slade are, their teams played some wonderful stuff at times. I watch Norwich,Villarreal at heir best, Montpellier and Lille in their day plus Monaco and Lyon now and just wish we could do the equivalent at a lower level. I cling to the hope that wilkinson was a classy player who was good enough for Norwich and slade whose teams at gy, orient and Yeovil have played some lovely stuff will have the ability to provide some moments of magic. I think with Osborne,Andrew, Asante and Jones there is the possibility of good times ahead

I really hope so mate. Anyway, it's time for bed and away to York for a long weekend tomorrow, to eat, drink and ponder the past week. I might go and watch York to remind me what we are missing.  

I think people who think a Slade is a bad appointment need to give their head a wobble. He's been managing at a higher level than us for the last 10 years and aside from an awful day at Cardiff  (And the antics at the lincoln game) I think he did a good job. Took a team on a severe downward spiral and straightened them up and made them promotion contenders.

A lot of people dream of championship football and as nice as that dream is I think people would be a bit deluded if they didn't think we were punching above our weight a little bit in the 90's.

And that's nearly 20 years ago and the landscape of football has changed a lot. Money talks and we will never be a big money club without someone other than Fenty dipping into their pockets.

We've just got back into the league after 6 years in the wilderness and I think Slade will help to steady the ship and take us closer to promotion. People may not like his style but he got the results and at the end of the day that's what we want isn't it? Rather play passing football in league 2 or direct football in league 1?